mass group combat

[Truthsayer]

Is there a format for doing mass group combat? Like armies and such?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: mass group combat

 

Yes, the rules are detailed in the Fantasy HERO genre book. Essentially they treat "units" of multiple people as single characters, with some of the same stats as normal characters, and who move, fight and take damage as if they're a single entity. The number of individuals in a unit, and the scale of hexes used, can be increased to accomodate military forces of almost any size.

[Kabluey]

Re: mass group combat

 

Any opinions as to how well it works? At some point in the future my fantasy campaign may involve mass combat, and I wanted to get a sense for whether I should start looking at alternatives. For those who may have tried something else for mass combat, what did you pick and why?

[prestidigitator]

Re: mass group combat

 

I forget how the FH ones work, but I've had an open project for quite a while that basically models mass combat on the Autofire and Area of Attack mechanics. When done it should allow for all unit sizes (including individuals) to meaningfully participate in the same battle. The trick is getting it to run smoothly, which I think is doable, but is taking some work.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: mass group combat

 

Any opinions as to how well it works? At some point in the future my fantasy campaign may involve mass combat' date=' and I wanted to get a sense for whether I should start looking at alternatives. For those who may have tried something else for mass combat, what did you pick and why?[/quote']

 

I ran this system under Fourth Edition, and the new one is almost identical except for a few additions to cover more circumstances, particularly siege combat. I found that it worked pretty well. If you're used to normal character-to-character HERO combat, you'll be able to pick this up easily. There are also rules to allow for actions by exceptional individuals (PC heroes or major NPCs) to affect the overall course of the battle.

 

Mind you, the system as presented doesn't cover all the possible effects that non-damaging magic spells might have on an opposing unit (e.g. Flash, Entangle etc.). It's also not fully tricked out for modern or futuristic battles involving aerial or space confrontations, large-area weapons, and the like. I don't think it would be too hard to extrapolate to deal with those situations, though. But for battles between pre-industrial civilizations it's more than adequate.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: mass group combat

 

Actually I don't like to play out mass battles. If I was going to do so I would use a real wargame system for it rather than trying to make my RPG stretch to accomodate it.

 

If I have mass battles in one of my games then I have decided exactly who is going to win (unless they go for a battle of champions kind of thing) and the influence of the PCs is how well they win or how badly.

 

If the PCs are to be on the losing side then I will have some set pieces where they can frustrate the victory of their opponents - denying them the battle standard, saving the general/king/emperor from capture, rounding up breaking troops and rallying them to allow for a counter attack that saves a defeat from becoming a rout etc etc. If they are to be on the winning side then they get to try and do all the things that they would try and stop if they'd been on the losing side.

 

I find that this makes the story work better.

 

If the result has to be in doubt for the good of the story then there will be key moments in the battle - such as capturing a standard - that the PCs can be involved in that will require only require the normal skirmish style rules of an RPG.

 

If I want the PCs to change the course of a battle then they will usually do that before the battle begins by influencing the mustering of troops, swinging alleigences of participants or even by setting up a noble to switch sides and doom his current commander.

 

That way I don't need mass combat rules - just mass combat descriptions.

 

 

Doc

[CBikle]

Re: mass group combat

 

One of the 4th ed. Fantasy Hero Companion books had rules for this and they weren't bad (there were also similar rules for Champions in Adventurer's Club #7).

 

Basically, you decided how big you wanted each combat unit to be and the map scale and time scale were increased proportionally. PCs could either be part of a unit or act as their own unit. Their were also rules for "troop morale".

 

I think mass combat rules and/or LARP-style rules are the next big step for the Hero System.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: mass group combat

 

The rules as LL said are located in FH, and they are good. The best mosh-combat rules I've seen to date were actually from Vampire: The Dark Ages, which, in its original incarnation was a very low-magic, sword & sorcery vampire campaign, and it was fantastic.

 

As the battle rages on, the rules only really covered how to describe the action, and how to possibly harm the players with erratic fire, rolling boulders, and so on. Instead of making them the targets, it gave you rules to simulate the condition on the battlefield itself. FH doesn't do this, IIRC, but it could be installed VERY easily, and would be a great way to add an X factor to it.

 

I actually side in the middle (shock!) here, in that I think there's a place to run mosh combat, and any RPG can do it, its just a matter of the focus & how well it handles it, and further, that at its heart, White Wolf really nailed it. Here's rules for being IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT. Incoming!

[MorpheousXO]

Re: mass group combat

 

The rules as LL said are located in FH' date=' and they are good. The best mosh-combat rules I've seen to date were actually from [i']Vampire: The Dark Ages,[/i] which, in its original incarnation was a very low-magic, sword & sorcery vampire campaign, and it was fantastic.

 

As the battle rages on, the rules only really covered how to describe the action, and how to possibly harm the players with erratic fire, rolling boulders, and so on. Instead of making them the targets, it gave you rules to simulate the condition on the battlefield itself. FH doesn't do this, IIRC, but it could be installed VERY easily, and would be a great way to add an X factor to it.

 

I actually side in the middle (shock!) here, in that I think there's a place to run mosh combat, and any RPG can do it, its just a matter of the focus & how well it handles it, and further, that at its heart, White Wolf really nailed it. Here's rules for being IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT. Incoming!

 

 

Which book was that?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: mass group combat

 

I believe it was either V:tDA (1st Edition) or the Storyteller's Guide immediatley following. One of the two. Probably STG to V:tDA. Tragically, I likely don't have it anymore (moved one too many times).

[Kabluey]

Re: mass group combat

 

Forgive my ignorance, but I've not heard the term "mosh-combat" before. I take it from your post that it basically means, rules for dealing with characters in large combats but not rules for playing out the battle itself. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. At least for my purposes, this isn't what I was looking for.

 

I've done battles before using several different rules sets, including AD&D's Battlesystem (both 1st and 2nd Editions) as well as some miniatures rules. When I've run the battles, I don't so much worry about the players as heroes but rather as generals. I wouldn't build a campaign around something like that, but as a single session, it's been a lot of fun in the past. And in my current fantasy campaign, my plan is that the players will be among the leaders of a crusade. So again I'll focus on them as generals, not as heroes.

 

Unfortunately, I've lent my FH out but as soon as I get it back, I'll take a closer look at the mass combat rules.

 

Thanks for everyone's opinions.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: mass group combat

 

I was poking around my hard drive, moving stuff to CD, and I found a mass combat system developed by Killer Shrike. If you look around his website or send him a PM, I'm sure you can get a copy yourself.

 

Ah here it is...even less work for you...

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35547&highlight=mass+combat