based on ego

[steph]

why when you make a ocv attack a ecv attack is considered a advantage(+1)

steph

hope i am clear

[gojira]

Re: based on ego

 

Guessing: Most people have less ECV than DCV and less Mental Defense than Physical or Energy Defense. The costs I think are the same to raise each one, respectively, but physical attacks are much more common, so most people do in fact purchase up PD and ED but not MD so much.

[Lxndr]

Re: based on ego

 

Most people's defensive Ego Combat Value is lower than their plain ordinary DCV. Also, BOECV usually goes against mental defense, which (usually) people have less of than PD or ED.

[prestidigitator]

Re: based on ego

 

You also get no Range Penalty and a maximum range of Line of Sight rather than APx5". IIRC you might be able to attack a target with it through Mind Scan, too (not real sure about that one; I'm being to lazy to open my book).

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

Based on ECV has several potential benefits depending on the situation, many of which have already been said:

 

1. Outside of mentalists/psychics and mages, high EGO tends to be rare so you often have a much easier time hitting people.

 

2. Also, there are no mental "block" or "dodge" maneuvers. Your ECV is your ECV, period. There is really virtually nothing you can actively do to defend against an EGO based attack. Unlike a physical attack where you can dodge, duck behind cover, or do whatever, once you are under mental attack the only things you can actively do to "defend" against the attack are to pound the attacker into the ground fast or leave the field all together except that...

 

3. There are no range penalties and your range is line of sight, regardless of how many points you have in it. Also, you CAN attack someone you can't "see" with your eyes if you have the appropriate mental powers.

 

4. Ironically, your best "defense" against mental powers is sometimes a LIMITATION like Beserk or Enraged that radically alters your mental makeup.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: based on ego

 

The +1 Based on ECV advantage converts the power to using Ego CV, applying against mental defense and having a Line of Sight range modifier. AVLD is a +1 1/2 advantage, and LoS is +1/2, so BoECV is effectively half price. Note that, if you lose LoS, the BoECV advantage falls to +3/4 (ie the 1/2 price ratio is retained).

 

So why would anyone ever buy AVLD - mental Defense? Clearly, it's only worth +3/4.

 

With the above in mind, the switch from dex-based CV to ego-based CV appears to have no cost. This has been discussed on prior threads in some depth. To me, it seems reasonable to make the choice of DEX-based or Ego-based CV a straight swap (+0 advantage/-0 limitation).

[David Johnston]

Re: based on ego

 

The +1 Based on ECV advantage converts the power to using Ego CV, applying against mental defense and having a Line of Sight range modifier. AVLD is a +1 1/2 advantage, and LoS is +1/2, so BoECV is effectively half price. Note that, if you lose LoS, the BoECV advantage falls to +3/4 (ie the 1/2 price ratio is retained).

 

So why would anyone ever buy AVLD - mental Defense? Clearly, it's only worth +3/4.

 

 

Because they have a really high Dex and skill levels that only apply to physical combat. Psylocke for example has mad Ninja DEX and lots of hand to hand skill levels and her psychic knife can in fact be dodged by someone even better.

[prestidigitator]

Re: based on ego

 

2. Also' date=' there are no mental "block" or "dodge" maneuvers. Your ECV is your ECV, period. There is really virtually nothing you can actively do to defend against an EGO based attack. Unlike a physical attack where you can dodge, duck behind cover, or do whatever, once you are under mental attack the only things you can actively do to "defend" against the attack are to pound the attacker into the ground fast or leave the field all together except that...[/quote']

Hmm. I personally allow Dodge and Block against Mental Powers, but neither changes your DCV (only your DECV), and the latter can only be performed if the defender has a Mental Power of some kind. It is also typically at a penalty if the defender possesses no offensive Mental Powers (in the same manner I assign a penalty to unarmed characters in HTH combat). I allow BOECV Telekinesis in some cases to allow a Block against both Mental Attacks and Ranged Attacks in the same maneuver if the defender also has Missile Deflection (and the Missile Deflection's SFX is such that it would make sense to use it with TK).

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

Hmm. I personally allow Dodge and Block against Mental Powers' date=' but neither changes your DCV (only your DECV), and the latter can only be performed if the defender has a Mental Power of some kind. It is also typically at a penalty if the defender possesses no [i']offensive[/i] Mental Powers (in the same manner I assign a penalty to unarmed characters in HTH combat). I allow BOECV Telekinesis in some cases to allow a Block against both Mental Attacks and Ranged Attacks in the same maneuver if the defender also has Missile Deflection (and the Missile Deflection's SFX is such that it would make sense to use it with TK).

 

I suppose there might be occasions where it makes sense(albeit rarely) but to my knowledge, there is nothing in the rules that allows this. It's stirctly your house rule. Which is fine if it works for you.

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

The +1 Based on ECV advantage converts the power to using Ego CV, applying against mental defense and having a Line of Sight range modifier. AVLD is a +1 1/2 advantage, and LoS is +1/2, so BoECV is effectively half price. Note that, if you lose LoS, the BoECV advantage falls to +3/4 (ie the 1/2 price ratio is retained).

 

So why would anyone ever buy AVLD - mental Defense? Clearly, it's only worth +3/4.

 

With the above in mind, the switch from dex-based CV to ego-based CV appears to have no cost. This has been discussed on prior threads in some depth. To me, it seems reasonable to make the choice of DEX-based or Ego-based CV a straight swap (+0 advantage/-0 limitation).

 

Partly based on special effect. A pain whip might qualify here. Also, AVLD only vs. mental defense would ignore mind class wouldn't it? Based on ECV makes it a full mental power, so mind class WOULD be important.

[prestidigitator]

Re: based on ego

 

I suppose there might be occasions where it makes sense(albeit rarely) but to my knowledge' date=' there is nothing in the rules that allows this. It's stirctly your house rule. Which is fine if it works for you.[/quote']

Probably, yeah. I was just sharing a ruling that seemed to make sense to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: based on ego

 

Partly based on special effect. A pain whip might qualify here. Also' date=' AVLD only vs. mental defense would ignore mind class wouldn't it? Based on ECV makes it a full mental power, so mind class WOULD be important.[/quote']

 

So the power should cost more and be less effective due to SFX? And 5er explicitly states that BOECV powers are not subject to the classes of mind rules (absent specific GM rulings to the contrary).

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

So the power should cost more and be less effective due to SFX? And 5er explicitly states that BOECV powers are not subject to the classes of mind rules (absent specific GM rulings to the contrary).

 

That's new then. It used to be that BOECV powers basically counted as full mental powers, which would have included mind class. And it would still depend on the character as to whether it was more efficient or not. An AVLD uses normal OCV/DCV to hit. For some that might make it easier(generally speaking) to hit than using ECV all the time.

 

I think the SFX is important to the power in that it explains how it works. Some things are just more efficient or more useful than others. I also look at it that the SFX infleunces how closely related the power is to other powers. The more you have to stretch the SFX, the more expensive it should be because you're pushing the limit of what you can do.

 

For example, say I want to be able to start fires. Lots of characters could be able to do this. For some, it would be easy. A pyrokinetic could do it naturally. It's what they do. A mage might have more limits, but really, we have no trouble seeing this since mages and fireball spells go hand in hand. But what about a matter manipulator? Or a someone who controls vibrations? Theoretically, especially if we'll apply a little comic book science, they should be able to start fires by rubbing atoms together, but we're stretching the power,so it should be more difficult for them to do it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: based on ego

 

That's new then. It used to be that BOECV powers basically counted as full mental powers' date=' which would have included mind class. And it would still depend on the character as to whether it was more efficient or not. An AVLD uses normal OCV/DCV to hit. For some that might make it easier(generally speaking) to hit than using ECV all the time.[/quote']

 

But the cost of the AVLD and the BOECV advantages are constnat, regardless of whether you have a 30 DEX and 10 EGO, or vice versa. Assuming a 60 AP limit, you can have a 4d6 AVLD (Mental Defense), LOS range, or a 6d6 BOECV. Which will be more powerful? Let's simplify it greatly - the characters are otherwise completely idenitcal in all respects, except AVLD Man has a 23 DEX and 14 Ego, and BOECV Man has a 23 Ego and 14 DEX.

 

If we assume no caps, BOECV Man gets a 6d6 attack for 60 points, and AVLD Man must pay 90 points to do the same damage, with the same OCV, same range modifier and against the same defense.

 

I think the SFX is important to the power in that it explains how it works. Some things are just more efficient or more useful than others. I also look at it that the SFX infleunces how closely related the power is to other powers. The more you have to stretch the SFX' date=' the more expensive it should be because you're pushing the limit of what you can do.[/quote']

 

Here we disagree. The point cost should, in my opinion, reflect the utility of the power. The ability to start a fire does not vary in utility regardless of the character's SFX. If the same result is more difficult for one character to accomplish than another, then the first character should have limitations reflecting that difficulty, which reduces the cost of the power.

 

Let's take three characters, Aquaman, Iron Man and Grond. All three can breathe underwater.

 

This makes perfect sense for an Atlantean - standard 5 point cost.

Iron Man's sealed systems make perfect sense - standard 5 point costs, with a limitation (say OIHID) for the armor.

 

What's the SFX of Grond waterbreathing. He's a classic Brick with no real aquatic connection. Should be pay more for waterbreathing because it's not a classic fit with his power suite? I'd say he pays the same as Aquaman - he gets the same benefits, so why should he pay more?

[Narratio]

Re: based on ego

 

Back at the first question. Another thing to remember is that with an ECV there's (almost) always no incidental effects. A line of sight with you and your target. Even if the LOS gets momentarily blocked by people walking between you and teh target, they are not going to be effected by the attack. Unlike bullets and beams.

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

But the cost of the AVLD and the BOECV advantages are constnat, regardless of whether you have a 30 DEX and 10 EGO, or vice versa. Assuming a 60 AP limit, you can have a 4d6 AVLD (Mental Defense), LOS range, or a 6d6 BOECV. Which will be more powerful? Let's simplify it greatly - the characters are otherwise completely idenitcal in all respects, except AVLD Man has a 23 DEX and 14 Ego, and BOECV Man has a 23 Ego and 14 DEX.

 

If we assume no caps, BOECV Man gets a 6d6 attack for 60 points, and AVLD Man must pay 90 points to do the same damage, with the same OCV, same range modifier and against the same defense.

 

 

 

Here we disagree. The point cost should, in my opinion, reflect the utility of the power. The ability to start a fire does not vary in utility regardless of the character's SFX. If the same result is more difficult for one character to accomplish than another, then the first character should have limitations reflecting that difficulty, which reduces the cost of the power.

 

Let's take three characters, Aquaman, Iron Man and Grond. All three can breathe underwater.

 

This makes perfect sense for an Atlantean - standard 5 point cost.

Iron Man's sealed systems make perfect sense - standard 5 point costs, with a limitation (say OIHID) for the armor.

 

What's the SFX of Grond waterbreathing. He's a classic Brick with no real aquatic connection. Should be pay more for waterbreathing because it's not a classic fit with his power suite? I'd say he pays the same as Aquaman - he gets the same benefits, so why should he pay more?

 

 

For the first part, yes, the costs are constant regardless of what your other stats are, but the alternative would be a sliding scale that would complicate matters immensely. I think you have to settle for the flat rate and just realize that sometimes it's going to be more limiting than others. Just like with Increaded END costs. Some characters have so much END to burn that it really doesn't affect them very much. Others, it is a serious hinderance because they burn up a lot.

 

As for your "breathing underwater example", I would point out two things:

 

First, Grond is, IIRC, somewhat amphibious himself, so the rationalization for him and Aquaman would be the same. And regardless, if you're going to give him water breathing, then you're assuming that he DOES in fact have some sort of gills or natural aquatic leanings, so it DOES fit with his SFX. So your example doesn't hold.

 

Second, the power you chose has a flat cost and is already expressly defined. So basically, you either have it or you don't. There is no other way to build it that changes the cost, except by applying limits or advantages. So your example is loaded. Instead, build, say, an illusion power that has one idea - make you appear as someone else(set image), sort of like an image inducer in the X-men comics. But build it once for a menatlist, once for a mage, and once for a gadgeteer. If you do that, you might not build the power the same way. I'd say you use Mental Illusions for the mentalist, Images for the techie, and the mage could go either way. The point cost isn't likely to come out the same. While I would agree that utility should be a general guideline to power cost(though we can all think of things in the book we think are over or under priced), I don't think it should be the ONLY factor. Some things are just harder for other characters and that will be reflected in more than just Limits, simply because different people, for whatever reason, approach things differently, and not all methods are equally efficient.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: based on ego

 

For the first part' date=' yes, the costs are constant regardless of what your other stats are, but the alternative would be a sliding scale that would complicate matters immensely. I think you have to settle for the flat rate and just realize that sometimes it's going to be more limiting than others.[/quote']

 

Alternatively, we could review the various means of building the powers to assess which is overpriced and which is underpriced in achieving the same effect. Basically, the AVLD + LOS build is virtually always going to lose. Even if I have a 10 Ego and a 35 DEX, +9 OCV for 18 points, added to the 60 point BOECV ability, is cheaper than paying 90 points for the AVLD approach. I fail to see why SFX should impose a significantly greater cost.

 

Just like with Increaded END costs. Some characters have so much END to burn that it really doesn't affect them very much. Others' date=' it is a serious hinderance because they burn up a lot. [/quote']

 

As for increased END, the character who has more END did pay more points for it. The possibility of an abuse is noted under END Battery, where it is suggested that END batteries and powers with increased END be closely scrutinized. By the way, it makes no difference how much END you had when you wake up after being knocked to -1 STUN. At this point, your Increased END becomes a very serious limitation.

 

As for your "breathing underwater example", I would point out two things:

 

First, Grond is, IIRC, somewhat amphibious himself, so the rationalization for him and Aquaman would be the same.

 

Aquaman is an Atlantean. Grond is a Hulk knockoff. This just comes down to assessing which SFX/rationalizations you're prepared to accept for the character. I suspect you'll find few players who wish to attack Mental Defense will want that defined as an AVLD given the much lower cost of a BOECV power. So those powers will gain an ECV related SFX/rationalization.

 

"Yeah, all my other powers are based on electricity - this one's BRAIN electricity. If Grond can go from normal human to aquatic monster, I should be able to use mental electricity."

 

Second' date=' the power you chose has a flat cost and is already expressly defined. So basically, you either have it or you don't. There is no other way to build it that changes the cost, except by applying limits or advantages. So your example is loaded.[/quote']

 

+50 END (or 50 point END battery), only to assist in holding breath. There are other ways to simulate most abilities.

 

Instead' date=' build, say, an illusion power that has one idea - make you appear as someone else(set image), sort of like an image inducer in the X-men comics. But build it once for a menatlist, once for a mage, and once for a gadgeteer. If you do that, you might not build the power the same way. I'd say you use Mental Illusions for the mentalist, Images for the techie, and the mage could go either way.[/quote']

 

Actually, the differentiating factor over Images or Mental Illusions would be whether it affects one target or multiple targets. If I want the target's Ego or Mental Defense to affect the perception of Images, I'll slap a limitation on it.

 

While I would agree that utility should be a general guideline to power cost(though we can all think of things in the book we think are over or under priced)' date=' I don't think it should be the ONLY factor. Some things are just harder for other characters and that will be reflected in more than just Limits, simply because different people, for whatever reason, approach things differently, and not all methods are equally efficient.[/quote']

 

We simply disagree on this point. Your approach, to my mind, is one which encourages the "archetype approach". Sorry, Attacks vs Mental Defense are a cross-class skill for your Martial Artist, so they cost extra.

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

Alternatively, we could review the various means of building the powers to assess which is overpriced and which is underpriced in achieving the same effect. Basically, the AVLD + LOS build is virtually always going to lose. Even if I have a 10 Ego and a 35 DEX, +9 OCV for 18 points, added to the 60 point BOECV ability, is cheaper than paying 90 points for the AVLD approach. I fail to see why SFX should impose a significantly greater cost.

 

 

 

As for increased END, the character who has more END did pay more points for it. The possibility of an abuse is noted under END Battery, where it is suggested that END batteries and powers with increased END be closely scrutinized. By the way, it makes no difference how much END you had when you wake up after being knocked to -1 STUN. At this point, your Increased END becomes a very serious limitation.

 

 

 

Aquaman is an Atlantean. Grond is a Hulk knockoff. This just comes down to assessing which SFX/rationalizations you're prepared to accept for the character. I suspect you'll find few players who wish to attack Mental Defense will want that defined as an AVLD given the much lower cost of a BOECV power. So those powers will gain an ECV related SFX/rationalization.

 

"Yeah, all my other powers are based on electricity - this one's BRAIN electricity. If Grond can go from normal human to aquatic monster, I should be able to use mental electricity."

 

 

 

+50 END (or 50 point END battery), only to assist in holding breath. There are other ways to simulate most abilities.

 

 

 

Actually, the differentiating factor over Images or Mental Illusions would be whether it affects one target or multiple targets. If I want the target's Ego or Mental Defense to affect the perception of Images, I'll slap a limitation on it.

 

 

 

We simply disagree on this point. Your approach, to my mind, is one which encourages the "archetype approach". Sorry, Attacks vs Mental Defense are a cross-class skill for your Martial Artist, so they cost extra.

 

The Increased END may or may not be a serious limitation shortly after "waking up" depending on a number of factors including what the character's REC is and whether the power runs off of personal END or an END reserve. I could for example, build a power armor character with a large END reserve then buy one of his rare guns at X2 END because it chews up a lot of END converting energy and it makes perfect sense. Since it runs of an END reserve, it's irrelevant whether I "just woke up" or not, because the END reserve isn't affected by me getting knocked to negative STUN.

 

+50END only to hold your breath? Why bother when long term END rules would already allow him to hold his breath almost indefinitely. But that isn't the same as being able to breathe underwater. If I knock the wind out of someone who is trying to use "can hold my breath forever" as a substitute for breathing underwater, he has to surface or drown. Aquaman doesn't have that problem. Just like Aquaman can talk underwater but someone who bought END "only to hold my breath" can't talk without resurfacing. It's NOT the same thing.

 

Mental Illusions vs. Images should not be based on how many people it affects. You can have either one affect one person or more than one, depending on how you build it. Instead, it should depend on how you're going about it. Are you bending the light(Images) or are you reaching into their brain and telling it that it sees something that's not there? The second one is harder(generally) so it should cost more, even though it's going to do much the same thing.

 

Also, I'm not trying to encourage archetypes so much as discourage people assembling a random collection of powers. I want things that go together rationally. Just because you reason from special effects doesn't mean that you have to have an archetype. Few characters I play(or players I play with) really have that. But we build things based on how the character would do it, not on what is most efficient. Sure they all have a few archetypal things. But it's impossible not to. If you give someone 75 STR and high DEF, you've build a brick. BUT that doesn't mean the characters can't stretch themselves in ways that differentiate them from others with the same (very) general archetype. For example, in the last group, the team brick had an origin similar to the Molten Man from Marvel Comics, but his powers were completely different. For one, he was a brick. For another, he could "sense" metal. He could also bond himself to metal and "walk up walls" if they were strong enough to hold him, which necessitated him buying a limited version of Flight. And Clinging. Ever see an 800 pound metallic guy hang upside down from a steel girder like he was Spiderman? Of course, he also had Density Increase and Life Support, which are traditional brick powers, but they made sense. You don't have to build "the same old character" just because you're building from special effect.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: based on ego

 

I suppose there might be occasions where it makes sense(albeit rarely) but to my knowledge' date=' there is nothing in the rules that allows this. It's stirctly your house rule. Which is fine if it works for you.[/quote']

4th Ed Ultimate Mentalist had rules for Mental Maneuvers, including one called Mind Bar which basically worked as a Block (OECV vs OECV). IIRC there were also several different options for boosting your DECV +/or MD, typically at the expense of your OECV +/or DCV. But as far as I know those haven't yet been carried forward into any 5th Ed pubs.

 

I think the SFX is important to the power in that it explains how it works. Some things are just more efficient or more useful than others. I also look at it that the SFX infleunces how closely related the power is to other powers. The more you have to stretch the SFX' date=' the more expensive it should be because you're pushing the limit of what you can do.[/quote']

I absolutely agree that SFX is critical to the character concept, and I'm all for encouraging character designs that make sense rather than just hanging a bunch of powers together and calling it a superhero. But that's for us as GMs and players to enforce. The idea that Powers cost the same regardless of sfx is pretty central to the Hero chargen philosophy, and I see no need to change that.

 

Now if the sfx for a power don't fit the character, then you're going to have a hard time fitting it into that MP or EC; so in that sense it will be more expensive.

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

4th Ed Ultimate Mentalist had rules for Mental Maneuvers, including one called Mind Bar which basically worked as a Block (OECV vs OECV). IIRC there were also several different options for boosting your DECV +/or MD, typically at the expense of your OECV +/or DCV. But as far as I know those haven't yet been carried forward into any 5th Ed pubs.

 

 

I absolutely agree that SFX is critical to the character concept, and I'm all for encouraging character designs that make sense rather than just hanging a bunch of powers together and calling it a superhero. But that's for us as GMs and players to enforce. The idea that Powers cost the same regardless of sfx is pretty central to the Hero chargen philosophy, and I see no need to change that.

 

Now if the sfx for a power don't fit the character, then you're going to have a hard time fitting it into that MP or EC; so in that sense it will be more expensive.

 

Yes, if they are the same power. But if you're doing things much differently, with different mechanics, then it may have a similar effect, but it is NOT the same power.

[The Souljourner]

Re: based on ego

 

BOECV is there probably precisely *because* AVLD: MD is crap. Just don't take AVLD: MD.

 

For the original poster - it's already been said, you get to attack someone based on their Ego instead of Dex, and most people have worse Ego than Dex. Plus, you're the one choosing to buy this advantage, which means *you* probably have better Ego than Dex. Plus you get no range modifier and Line of Sight range, both of which are good advantages on their own.

 

-Nate

[bigdamnhero]

Re: based on ego

 

Yes' date=' if they are the same power. But if you're doing things much differently, with different mechanics, then it may have a similar effect, but it is NOT the same power.[/quote']

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. To use the firestarter example you used earlier:

 

PC#1 has elemental control powers. He wants to have a 1-Body RKA flame strike, defined as a weak flame he uses to start fires and the like.

 

PC#2 has vibration control powers. He wants to have a 1-Body RKA flame strike defined as causing molecules to rub together so fast that they combust.

 

While these are different powers within the game world, they are built using the exact same Power in the game mechanics. (Assume they have the exact same modifers.) It sounded before like you were saying PC#2 should have to pay more for the his firestarter, because it is "harder" in terms of sfx and it is doesn't fit as neatly into his power suite as PC#1's does. Did I misunderstand?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: based on ego

 

BOECV is there probably precisely *because* AVLD: MD is crap. Just don't take AVLD: MD.

 

To restate, AVLD: Mental Defense is overpriced. Why not fix overpricing issues?

 

For the original poster - it's already been said' date=' you get to attack someone based on their Ego instead of Dex, and most people have worse Ego than Dex. Plus, you're the one choosing to buy this advantage, which means *you* probably have better Ego than Dex. Plus you get no range modifier and Line of Sight range, both of which are good advantages on their own.[/quote']

 

No Range Modifier is not required - you get Line of Sight (a +1/2 advantage) and AVLD Mental Defense, a +1 1/2 advantage (which I agree is overpriced) for a single +1 advantage.

 

If changing from attacking based on physical CV to attacking based on mental CV's should be an advantage, what should the limitation be for having a mental-based attack target based on physical CV (eg. how much should BoECV be reduced if I get the AVLD and LOS modifiers, but target with DEX vs DEX, and how much should the limitation be if my Ego Attack is targeted physically)?

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. To use the firestarter example you used earlier:

 

PC#1 has elemental control powers. He wants to have a 1-Body RKA flame strike, defined as a weak flame he uses to start fires and the like.

 

PC#2 has vibration control powers. He wants to have a 1-Body RKA flame strike defined as causing molecules to rub together so fast that they combust.

 

While these are different powers within the game world, they are built using the exact same Power in the game mechanics. (Assume they have the exact same modifers.) It sounded before like you were saying PC#2 should have to pay more for the his firestarter, because it is "harder" in terms of sfx and it is doesn't fit as neatly into his power suite as PC#1's does. Did I misunderstand?

 

A little, but not much. For something that small, it doesn't make much difference. But the vibration guy is gonna have to talk if he wants to start big fires - or be able to use the power on an airborne target. Because the SFX is so different, his character just isn't going to be as good at it. I'd probably recommend he take fewer dice than the pyrokinetic, but he's also going to end up being required to take some extra modifiers to limit how well he can do it. Those may make the power less useful. If he wants to do the exact same thing as the pyrokinetic(i.e. - throw a major fireball) he's probably going to have to pay more for it, at least a little.

 

Here's an example:

 

Player A(pyrokinetic) want to buy a fireball attack. This is exactly what the character is supposed to do. It's his bread and butter, so he can do this pretty much any way he wants. Let's say:

 

3D6 RKA, 1 Hex AOE.

 

Player B(vibration specialist) wants to buy a fireball attack defined as "vibrating the molecules so fast that they combust". Ok, theoretically this is possible. But whereas the pyrokinetic is naturally capable of generating the heat necessary in a specific area, it's pretty basic for him. Not so true of the vibration specialist. It's a bit outside his area of expertise and requires a finer degree of control over his power. When he first buys it at least(I might be willing to talk about changing things after he uses it a lot), the power is probably going to have take some kind of extra effort(Concentration, Increased END, whatever). Also, it's VERY hard to rub things together fast enough to create a hot fire, so he probably has to buy it as EB. So he might have to buy it like this:

 

9D6 1 hex AOE, X2 END

[Mike W]

Re: based on ego

 

A better example would be one that is tied to the initial reason for the thread: the "pain whip". Two characters want a "pain whip" the first is a gadgeteer, who is building an actual whip, the second is a mentalist who basically is conjuring a variation on Psylocke's "psychic knife" idea.

 

The gadgeteer is going to attack the other person's nervous system and attempt to overload it, because he doesn't want an "all or nothing" concept, he's left with buying an AVLD Energy Blast. Since it obviously won't run off of the character's END(though other types of characters, it might), he has to either buy charges or buy it 0 END. For the sake of direct comparison, we'll buy it 0 END.

 

Pain Whip: 6D6 EB AVLD vs. Power(or Mental,you could argue either) DEF. OAF(whip). 0 END Active Points: 90 Real Cost 45

 

Mentalist is basically creating a unique "focus" that, for the sake of comparison, is actually tangible and can be "blocked" and such. We will distinguish however that her focus is unique and cannot be used by others, but these are -0 limits. It is still OAF because it can be taken from her in combat(basic disarm maneuver or any grab/hold that can force her hand open) Her pain whip is really an EGO Blast with no range.

 

Pain Whip: 6D6 EGO blast. 0 END(she's good at it). No Range. OAF

Active Points: 90 Real Cost: 36

 

The second power is 20% cheaper but has the exact same effect as the first. However I have no problem with this because menatlists with EGO blasts are very common. Most mentalists have them. It's something the character would easily learn how to do, even though he is doing it a bit differently. Overloading the brain's pain receptors is stock in trade for a mentalist. On the other hand, a gadgeteer building the first power is a bit less common. Partly because the archetype is a bit broader but also because they are trying to build something that works against anyone, regardless of anatomy, which could vary radically even among those who were/are originally human/mutant(e.g. Sandman, Colossus, the Thing, Hyrdo Man in water form). The mentalist, by definition, is targeting something that all humans, mutants, etc have - a basically human mind. So it's easier for him because he is always trying to "get ahold" of the same thing.