Magic System Question #1

[Kortay Mirlor]

Hi all!

 

I'm going to be running a FH campaign when the GM finishes the current campaign (long story, I'll spare ya )

 

I'm designing the magic system and would like some advice. First question.

 

I want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN, but easy to cast when ya know 'em.

 

For example: Extra Time is for each casting, so it's out. Same reasoning re. Expendable Focus.

 

Any ideas?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Sounds like there wouldn't be a lot of limitations on the spells themselves. "It takes a long time to learn" isn't a lot different from "You need to find a mentor". It simply says "You'll have to do some in-game work to learn a spell, and the GM may or may not facilitate it happening".

 

In fact, making them hard to acquire and expensive to obtain, to me, makes spells a lot more like equipment than "powers". With that in mind, I'd be inclined to make spells more "purchased with money" than "purchased with points" - they shouldn't be both. That may imply a more skill-based magic system - eg. the character has now learned Fireball, so he may buy the Fireball spell as a skill. This could be as basic as "spell familiarity", similar to weapon familiarity, or a full Skill for each spell, with the level of the skill determining the power the character can place behind the spell.

 

A caution: make it too tough or painful for characters to acquire spells, and you'll likely find yourself with a very warrior-heavy group of player characters.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Okay, well. First, you can try Killer Shrike's site (he has numerous magic systems pre built). I can sit here and expound until I'm blue in the face, if that'll help. "hard to learn" is a ***** to model, really, since you either throw CP at the problem, or throw campaign currency at the problem. Rarity is the issue, methinks.

 

Compound that with Hugh's suggestion - Skill Rolls - and you're on your way. If you want to do something like d20, then you'll build 9 Casting Skills (one for each sphere) and then spells within them, each Requiring a Skill Roll, which is a good representation of "spell difficulty."

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Well In a system where spells are relativly unhindered Limitation wise, the Point cost of the power is it's own deterent. It may take a long time for a caster to build up the necessary XP to learn a new spell, from there simply define a general guideline for how much training it takes to learn a spell of RP cost "X"

In one magic system I have learning the necessary skill roll takes about 2 months per 1- Roll (thus a 8- takes 16 months to learn). if you wanted to adapt this to RP Cost I'd sugest perhaps 1 month/2 RP, that way your average Fireball alone could take over a year of training to master.

[Willow]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN

 

Use as few disadvantages as possible, and absolutely no power frameworks for wizards. The big thing here then is that their spells cost lots and lots of character points, which is everything you just described. It should balance itself on its own that way.

[Basil]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Hi all!

 

I'm going to be running a FH campaign when the GM finishes the current campaign (long story, I'll spare ya )

 

I'm designing the magic system and would like some advice. First question.

 

I want spells to be hard, long, expensive, maybe painful to LEARN, but easy to cast when ya know 'em.

 

For example: Extra Time is for each casting, so it's out. Same reasoning re. Expendable Focus.

 

Any ideas?

I can see two methods. Which is best would depend on the answer to this question: Does it take the same amount of time, effort, etc. to learn every spell?

 

If "yes," or "similar amounts," I'd call it part of The Way The World Worksâ„¢, and just make it background; don't bother statting it out.

 

If "no," especially if "not even close," I'd make it a Limited Power Limitation, Must Expend X Amount Of Time, Money, Effort, STUN Damage, and vary how much for each spell. Also, some spells could take only time, only money, mostly effort (END) with a little money, etc., depending on what was appropriate for the specific spell.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

 

Painful to the character or painful to the player?

 

Not much is more painful to the player than the loss of CPs. In that vein you might consider having the learning process require the expenditure of points prior to a roll (skill-based or whatever). If the roll fails, the points go away; like dropping that independant focus while crossing the Bottomless Pits of Targasso.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

That's... wow, that's almost unreasonable. I think one of the laws of HERO is that unless you take Independent, your points are YOUR POINTS. Taking points away on a failed skill roll. That's. Blasphemy.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You might find some material here that is useful to you:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.shtml

 

Specifically you might want to direct your attention to this document which is all about things to consider when making a Magic System:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.shtml

 

 

There are also numerous Magic Systems with sample characters and package deals provided, one or more of which might prove inspirational.

 

 

Speaking specifically towards your request, these Magic Systems have spells that are somewhat "hard" to learn via the cost and time involved for each new spell and to improve known spells:

 

Magecraft:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Magecraft.shtml

 

Spellweaving:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Spellweaving.shtml

 

Metier:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Metier.shtml

 

Aeldenaren:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/aeldenaren.shtml

 

 

Any of the Vancian Magic Systems, particularly ones using the "Spontaneous Casting" model:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/vancianSpontaneousMP.shtml

 

Feel free to direct questions at me via the boards or email at killershrike@killershrike.com , and good luck.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

 

Painful to the character or painful to the player?

 

Not much is more painful to the player than the loss of CPs. In that vein you might consider having the learning process require the expenditure of points prior to a roll (skill-based or whatever). If the roll fails, the points go away; like dropping that independant focus while crossing the Bottomless Pits of Targasso.

 

This would certainly get the "painful" aspect across. I'd have some concerns with this approach, however. Loss of CP being painful, players will choose this option only if the benefits of success are significant - commensurate with the risks and costs of failure.

 

If that balance is achieved, however, we get a random power level among characters. Let's assume the chance of a successful skill roll is 1 in 3 (and there's no way to improve your chances by min-max'ing). Character A and Character B both try to learn, say, 9 spells as part of character creation. Character A is unlucky - he fails all 9 rolls. Character B is on a hot streak and succeeds with 8 of 9. We now have one character who is hugely overpowered, and a second who may as well fall on his sword.

 

Like 2 D&D characters, one who rolls 18 18 18 17 17 16 and another who rolls 8 8 8 7 7 6. We end up with a random power level for characters, based on luck of the dice. Meanwhile, Character C, the warrior whose CP expenditures always get what he pays for, is overpowered compared to A and underpowered compared to B.

 

Mechanically, you got what you wanted. Philisophically, did you want the right thing?

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

That's... wow' date=' that's almost unreasonable. I think one of the laws of HERO is that unless you take Independent, your points are YOUR POINTS. Taking points away on a failed skill roll. That's. Blasphemy.[/quote']

 

True... true... but you can't deny that its painful. :-)

 

 

The real point is that if you want a process to be time consuming, arduous and painful to the characters (rather than the players), you should do this through story. From reading the OP's post it seems as if he's already planning on making the spells cost points. If the cost is high enough (and the rate of xp gain low enough) to discourage casual spell purchase, and if the GM imposes certain story elements the process of learning a new spell can be a difficult process and an enjoyable playing experience.

 

Make spell acquisition involve quests to distant lands or the acquisition of rare objects to be given to the spell instructor.

 

"Ere I deem you worthy to learn my secret Sigil of Sanctimonity, you must return to me the Sacred Solids of Socrates!"

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

I notice the use of the word painful in your description...

 

Painful to the character or painful to the player?

The charrie. STUN cost, etc.

 

To the "it's part of the story, don't write it out crowd": won't work with my group. Their POV: if it ain't written out, how can you be sure it's fair.

 

I agree!! Too d**m much "GM says-so" goes on. We want to see it written out ahead of time; that way, you can't say the GM's unfair. It may be arbitrary, it may seem stupid, but its fair cause you know what yer getting. An' if its written, why not a Limitation?

 

Any ideas what Limitation to use for "Only to learn"?

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Any ideas what Limitation to use for "Only to learn"?

 

Since points aren't actually expended until the the power is acquired, a limitation that affects only the acquisition of the said power wouldn't limit the use or effectiveness of the power itself, thus be worth no points.

 

 

How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time, have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time' date=' have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.[/quote']

 

It could be a custom Multiform - same character with his one new spell, but without the Multiform, no changing back. The limitations apply only when activating the Multiform, so will be a non-issue once the new form is in place (provided it doesn't kill you in the process and you have time to recuperate).

 

Want a new spell? You need to buy another Multiform with XP.

[KA.]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

One way to model "Painful to Learn" is to have something in place like a "School of Magic" or "Wizard's Academy" etc. where you had to go to learn a new spell.

Part of the process could be something like 'fitness testing' which would mean that you would learn a lesser version of the spell with an Activation Roll and Side Effects.

The only way to really learn the full version of the spell would be to complete, say, three, successful castings of the "Learning Version" while at the Academy.

These trials would be public, and at least three faculty members would have to be present (behind suitable protection, of course) for the casting to count. Meanwhile the person wanting to learn the spell would have to survive three castings, and any Side Effects caused by the spells that fail.

I second the suggestion that the cost of spells be pretty close to the actual cost of the powers, with perhaps a small (-1/2) discount, and no Frameworks.

 

So, the process to learn a new spell would be:

1) Save up enough XP to purchase the Spell

2) Find the proper Academy to learn it

3) Pay whatever the fee is to learn the spell.

(Of course there has to be a fee, don't you think it costs money to keep the Academy running?)

4) Learn the Training Spell with the Activation and Side Effects (This spell could be, maybe 2/3 the power level of the actual spell. You don't want it too wimpy or there would be no danger when the Side Effects went off.)

NOTE: The Character has to actually BUY THIS SPELL with XP.

If they are never able to complete the trial, they get stuck with this version of the spell, along with the Activation and Side Effects.

Even if they have or gain enough XP to buy off these Limitations at some point in the future, they cannot. The only way to get rid of them is to complete the process at the Academy.

5) They keep trying until they either cast the spell successfully three times, or get killed trying, or run out of money.

(There is, of course, a FEE for each trial. Those blast walls don't rebuild themselves, you know!)

They don't have to cast it three times in a row, unless you want to be a real bastard, just three times during their stay at the Academy.

(Of course there is a daily FEE for staying at the Academy. We can't afford to offer free room and board to a bunch of untalented fledgling wizards, you know!)

6) If they complete the trial, they spend the rest of the XP and get the full version of the spell.

 

By the way, no protective spells/gear are allowed during the casting of the Trial Spells, and you are not allowed to alter the probability of the Activation or Side Effects rolls by any means.

 

KA.

 

P.S. If you haven't, you should read: Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345319079/sr=8-1/qid=1152591913/ref=sr_1_1/102-3300994-9800104?ie=UTF8

It has a lot of cool ideas for keeping Magic Users 'in their place'.

[SteelDoom]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Seems to me that "painful to learn" might be so that people don't dabble in magic. Elemental Frameworks might fit this model well as there is usually a reasonably large point cost for buying spells compared to say a multi power or variable power pool.

[Savinien]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to just make Mages pay full CP cost for their powers?

[Old Man]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Seems to me that "painful to learn" might be so that people don't dabble in magic. Elemental Frameworks might fit this model well as there is usually a reasonably large point cost for buying spells compared to say a multi power or variable power pool.

 

 

Yeah, but you might not want them using all of their spells at the same time.

 

Learning magic can be painful -

 

Spells require a Magic Skill Roll. So characters have to invest in Spell Slinging 3/2

 

Putting the limitation Requires Skill Roll adds a skill roll penalty depending on the active points cost of the spell. Bigger spells are harder to cast so magic casters have to invest more in Spell Slinging in order to get their spells off more often.

 

Other than Requires Skill Roll, don't put or don't allow many Limitations on spells. This makes each spell more expensive to buy.

 

$$$ to research, learn, hire a mentor, guild fees, magical components, blah blah blah.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You could start the RSR of every newly acquired spell at 8-, and for each successful casting in a stressful situation--not just sitting around in a field practicing--increase the roll by +1 or something until it reaches the character's normal skill roll. That seems like a painful and risky enough learning curve to me.

 

If the magic system otherwise doesn't have RSRs, use an Activation Roll (though probably for each activation, not each Phase; more like a RSR in this regard) instead, and once the Activation gets to 18-, drop the Activation Roll completely.

 

Also consider adding some Side Effects (probably minor ones, but it might depend on the spell) until the spell is fully learned in either case.

 

Oh, or if you want a different learning curve, increase the roll for each unsuccessful casting, or just each stressful casting period, regardless of success or failure. Whatever. Pretty tunable IMO.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

How about this? Require spellcasters to have a power that allows them to learn new spells. It could either be a major transform or a custom power (or something else). Have it take a long time' date=' have side effects, cost cubic furlongs of endurance, and any other nasty limitations. If you use a transform, perhaps have it target the character's EGO or INT rather than Body.[/quote']

Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?), Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power other than the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

One way to model "Painful to Learn" is to have something in place like a "School of Magic" or "Wizard's Academy" etc. where you had to go to learn a new spell.

Part of the process could be something like 'fitness testing' which would mean that you would learn a lesser version of the spell with an Activation Roll and Side Effects.

The only way to really learn the full version of the spell would be to complete, say, three, successful castings of the "Learning Version" while at the Academy.

These trials would be public, and at least three faculty members would have to be present (behind suitable protection, of course) for the casting to count. Meanwhile the person wanting to learn the spell would have to survive three castings, and any Side Effects caused by the spells that fail.

I second the suggestion that the cost of spells be pretty close to the actual cost of the powers, with perhaps a small (-1/2) discount, and no Frameworks.

 

So, the process to learn a new spell would be:

1) Save up enough XP to purchase the Spell

2) Find the proper Academy to learn it

3) Pay whatever the fee is to learn the spell.

(Of course there has to be a fee, don't you think it costs money to keep the Academy running?)

4) Learn the Training Spell with the Activation and Side Effects (This spell could be, maybe 2/3 the power level of the actual spell. You don't want it too wimpy or there would be no danger when the Side Effects went off.)

NOTE: The Character has to actually BUY THIS SPELL with XP.

If they are never able to complete the trial, they get stuck with this version of the spell, along with the Activation and Side Effects.

Even if they have or gain enough XP to buy off these Limitations at some point in the future, they cannot. The only way to get rid of them is to complete the process at the Academy.

5) They keep trying until they either cast the spell successfully three times, or get killed trying, or run out of money.

(There is, of course, a FEE for each trial. Those blast walls don't rebuild themselves, you know!)

They don't have to cast it three times in a row, unless you want to be a real bastard, just three times during their stay at the Academy.

(Of course there is a daily FEE for staying at the Academy. We can't afford to offer free room and board to a bunch of untalented fledgling wizards, you know!)

6) If they complete the trial, they spend the rest of the XP and get the full version of the spell.

 

By the way, no protective spells/gear are allowed during the casting of the Trial Spells, and you are not allowed to alter the probability of the Activation or Side Effects rolls by any means.

 

KA.

 

Thanks for the ideas. I'll adapt some to my world, for the roleplaying side of learning spells. Not the "try it till you get it"---spells in my world always work.

 

The money-grubbing "academy" is good tho. May be what/who causes the pain (STUN Drain). Hmm.... Blood magik?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to just make Mages pay full CP cost for their powers?

I already planned to forbid Frameworks.

 

But I don't see how you're talking about the question/request I had/have.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?)' date=' Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power [i']other than[/i] the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?

If you really want to go with that idea, I'd definitely call it a Transform, not a Multiform. Multiform is for characters who can actively switch between different forms. Transform is for making more or less permanent changes. Since the character will have to pay for the new powers anyway, it doesn't really matter that it is being used on the character him/herself.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Bingo! We have a winner! This'll let me put the STUN Drain (HKA?)' date=' Extra Time, Expendable Focus (money or valuable shtuff), etc., on a power [i']other than[/i] the spell. I like Hugh Neilson's how-to of basing it off of Multiform. I don't like making the "new you" not have the Multiform, though. Perhaps use the "+5 points doubles" rule but changing to "+5 points adds one more form". Any ideas best way to do that?

 

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

 

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

 

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

 

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

 

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

 

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

 

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

 

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

 

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

 

By the RAW I'mk pretty sure that such a construct would give you a "new spell" but only for one phase, then the Charge runs out and the power ends. for what I think you were going for, change to 0 END (if it doesn't already can't remember), Persistant, and Always on. Technially you still have the old form with the Multipower, but because the old forms power can never be turned off it's effectivly non-existant. Though perhaps Independent is in order as well, FH indicates that would make the spell a one-shot (they use it for Wish effects...)

 

However, it seems are very overcomplicated way to learning new spells