Agent X Posted July 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Originally posted by Enforcer84 That's kinda neat Agent X. I like that. Kinda feels like the ol' "optimal conditions" caveat Marvel had in its OHTTMU Hmmm, I just threw it out there. Thought of it on the spot - but I have been wondering what that strength roll is for so that's probably why it came to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher I want consistency. If a character can lift a battleship in issue 9, he should be able to easily lift a bus in issue 17. If A and B are a match in a fight, and B and C are a match in a fight, then (barring some logical reason) A and C should be a match in a fight -- C should not take A out in three moves or less. Actually, there is a little bit of real-life precedent for these sorts of mismatches. Take sports for example. Often, team A will beat team B by only a few points, team B will beat team C by only a few points, and then team C will absolutely maul team A. College football, last year: University of Southern California beat Colorado by a score of 40 to 3. The next week, Kansas State beat USC 10 to 3. Two weeks after that, Colorado beat Kansas State something like 35 to 31. If this can happen in real life, it can happen in comics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Well, on strength, you could either go with a fixed weight and only a fixed weight or a table like this: Strength roll 70% of normal max = str. roll +3 80% of normal max = str. roll +2 90% of normal max = str. roll +1 100% of normal max = str. roll 110% of normal max = str. roll -2 120% of normal max = str. roll -4 130% of normal max = str. roll -6 etc. Just thought I'd chime in with an article I did for Haymaker quite some time ago. Most of it still applies. http://www.deadmansland.com/hero/files/strength.pdf Let me know what you think, T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Deadman Just thought I'd chime in with an article I did for Haymaker quite some time ago. Most of it still applies. http://www.deadmansland.com/hero/files/strength.pdf Let me know what you think, T It didn't come up right. Might be a problem on my end. I just installed a new scanner and I am having problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X It didn't come up right. Might be a problem on my end. I just installed a new scanner and I am having problems. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Champsguy Actually, there is a little bit of real-life precedent for these sorts of mismatches. Take sports for example. Often, team A will beat team B by only a few points, team B will beat team C by only a few points, and then team C will absolutely maul team A. College football, last year: University of Southern California beat Colorado by a score of 40 to 3. The next week, Kansas State beat USC 10 to 3. Two weeks after that, Colorado beat Kansas State something like 35 to 31. If this can happen in real life, it can happen in comics. It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved. Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Champsguy Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved. Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case. It is a little more complicated, but often the reason can be as simple as "they had a bad day". Last season, Colorado had an awesome rushing attack (which was good, since they couldn't pass for crap). Somehow Southern Cal managed to keep them below 60 yards rushing (when they'd rack up 300 or 400 against teams later in the season), but USC's defense wasn't really that good. Everybody in the football world is mystified at Colorado's inability to win an early-season game. Think of it this way. I've played in Champions games where some days I couldn't roll lower than a 16 to-hit to save my life. The enemies roll incredibly well, and I can't roll for a hill of beans. You could say that's what happened when some comics character gets spanked by another that he should be able to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher It gets a little more complicated when whole teams are involved. Additionally, you can usually go back and see why and how it happened in the real world. In comics, that's typically not the case. Not really. In tennis for example, there are many cases of Player A beating B, B beating C, and C beating A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 And again, you can usually tell why and how. Not so in comics, where the only determining factors in who beats who are A) the needs of the story this month's writer wants to tell, and continuity be damned, and what results in the coolest art this month, continutity be damned. Continuity. That's what I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Continuity makes batman 80 years old. That isn't going to happen. I'd love to see it. I don't mind if A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A if they give me a convincing reason for the fights to go that way. Maybe B was suffering from the flu when he fought A, maybe C lucked out with a little divine intervnetion against A. Perhaps A's mind was elswhere. Generally a good story will often trump nit picking in my book. I just wish I saw some of that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 Originally posted by Deadman You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader T That's the problem. My Reader is out of whack because of the idiotic way the Scanner install worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Roberts Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Grond is Good Without scrolling through my books, and going just on memory, I still say that Ground is si the strongest, for he is a true brick, not a mastermind who rarely will use his brickness, he doesn't need boosts or growth spurts to get that extra umph he has it all along. So in straight out brick-ness Grond is stil the head man muscle wise, he doesn't do it on extra bells and whistles he does it with just the four arms and thats it. He's like your Grandpa's brick, he pummeled heroes in 12 feet of snow while walking to school and he didn't neeed cyber parts of growth.. he was just happy with his extra pair of arms. I remember when a extra limb meant a extra +5 too STR... (a flashback to geezerdom) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher And again, you can usually tell why and how. Not so in comics, where the only determining factors in who beats who are A) the needs of the story this month's writer wants to tell, and continuity be damned, and what results in the coolest art this month, continutity be damned. Continuity. That's what I want. Yeah, it could simply be that one of them had a bad day, had a head cold, made lots of unforced errors or double faults, played on a bad surface, the opponent was simply inspired that day, etc. All of these factors could easily apply in comics offscreen. Let's take Champions. We could easily matchup 3 relatively balanced characters and simply have the luck of the dice allow A to beat B, B to beat C, and C to beat A. If you can accept this in roleplaying, why can't you accept this in a comic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morningstar Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Let's take Champions. We could easily matchup 3 relatively balanced characters and simply have the luck of the dice allow A to beat B, B to beat C, and C to beat A. If you can accept this in roleplaying, why can't you accept this in a comic? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think 3 balanced characters is the problem. It's things like Human Torch defeating Graviton through kindergarten science or Wolverines popularity taking him from "tough mutant with claws who can still be defeated by top level human opponents" to "samurai, master of a thousand martial arts, superhumanly fast god-slicer". It is those kind of issues that are the most frustrating to fans of continuity and good story telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Re: Grond is Good Originally posted by John Roberts Without scrolling through my books, and going just on memory, I still say that Ground is si the strongest, for he is a true brick, not a mastermind who rarely will use his brickness, he doesn't need boosts or growth spurts to get that extra umph he has it all along. So in straight out brick-ness Grond is stil the head man muscle wise, he doesn't do it on extra bells and whistles he does it with just the four arms and thats it. He's like your Grandpa's brick, he pummeled heroes in 12 feet of snow while walking to school and he didn't neeed cyber parts of growth.. he was just happy with his extra pair of arms. I remember when a extra limb meant a extra +5 too STR... (a flashback to geezerdom) I don't buy your criteria for strongest. I will measure strongest by who has the highest strength total. There are two characters in the CKC alone that have a higher strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Grond is Good Originally posted by Morningstar70 Gargantua may have 100 STR, but he's easier to lay smack at that size than playing baseball with a beach ball. And the Lemurian giant golem isn't a sentient being. Either way... geddover it. Grond is the closest thing to the Hulk that the Champions Universe has (well, actually that's Ogre, but he's only STR 65). He's big and green, and he yells "Grond Strongest One There Is!" He doesn't look at other villains' character sheets - he just goes out and lays the pounding down on his enemies, so even if they do own a couple extra dice for their smacks, it doesn't matter to Grond, because Grond at best what Grond do... and GROND SMASHES! Now that there's a translation by DOJ of the Hulk I think the closest thing to the Hulk is the Hulk. So... Hulk smashes puny Grond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Yeah, it could simply be that one of them had a bad day, had a head cold, made lots of unforced errors or double faults, played on a bad surface, the opponent was simply inspired that day, etc. All of these factors could easily apply in comics offscreen. Offscreen doesn't count. At all. If the book or movie or comic doesn't show me (or at least tell me) something, then it doesn't happen, and it doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher Offscreen doesn't count. At all. If the book or movie or comic doesn't show me (or at least tell me) something, then it doesn't happen, and it doesn't exist, and it doesn't matter. If you only saw TV or read a newspaper and you saw that Justine Henin beat Serena Williams, would you say that offscreen doesn't count? Would you refuse to believe that Henin could do such a thing and scream "fix" or would you assume that Henin had a great day or Serena had an awful day? Just because it's not seen doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted July 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Grond is Good Originally posted by Morningstar70 Darren's Hulk might smash Grond, but to me, it looks like it would be as classic a rivalry as Hulk vs. the Abomination. Frankly, Grond and Hulk both look equal in speed and fighting skill, and it'll take a little bit for Hulk to get significantly past Hulk levels to start applying real hurt. Darren's version is underpowered based on old translation material and it will still whip Grond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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