Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Judge the character on its individual merits / flaws within the context of the campaign. For instance -8 to offset headshots might be unbalancing on one character, and balancing on another. Other factors apply and should be considered.

 

At the end of the day, if you as the GM feel like ANY ability applied to ANY character makes the character unbalancing to play then feel free to veto it or provide an alternative that you are more comfortable with. Trying to lay out a list of arbitrary limits before hand is just stifling and heavy handed, in my opinion.

 

Things are as simple or as difficult as you make them out to be.

[Checkmate]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

If you are playing in a 150pt Fantasy Hero game that uses Hit Locations, I can pretty much promise you, +8 vs Hit Locations is gonna be WAY out of balance.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I use a similar approach' date=' but I remove "and only against the PC that did it." Either the rule/construct/tactic applies to the whole game, or it's removed entirely.[/quote']

 

 

While after playing the characters for "A REAL LONG TIME" I may not mind characters having such abilites but starting out that way is way out of line. A game loses its enjoyment when nothing is a challenge. I also would like to have a game where more normal monsters are a challange. As mentioned, playing the high skill levels +Martial Arts DC bonus quickly makes it so that only high leveled monsters and villians are a challange.

 

I have been thinking, even limiting PSL to 4 still doesn't negate the problem since for 12 point a character can buy normal CSLs to bump it up to an effective +8.

 

 

Again, I appricate all this discussion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

While after playing the characters for "A REAL LONG TIME" I may not mind characters having such abilites but starting out that way is way out of line. A game loses its enjoyment when nothing is a challenge. I also would like to have a game where more normal monsters are a challange. As mentioned, playing the high skill levels +Martial Arts DC bonus quickly makes it so that only high leveled monsters and villians are a challange.

 

I have been thinking, even limiting PSL to 4 still doesn't negate the problem since for 12 point a character can buy normal CSLs to bump it up to an effective +8.

 

This gets back to the issue of the spread between OCV and DCV. Let's assume we have two characters with 2d6 Bow RKA's. One pays 24 points to buy +8 levels w/ Bows (now he can always target the head shot). The second pays 22 points to buy +2d6 RKA Deadly Accurate with any Bow, 0 END, OIF Bow of Opportunity, Full Phase. Which one is more dangerous?

 

Depends. Does the target HAVE a head? If not, the second character has a major advantage. But if the target has +8 DCV, the Deadly Accurate archer can't connect. By not taking the head shot, the guy with the skill levels can draw a bead on this nimble opponent.

 

Neither character is likely to be accepted into a typical 75+75 Fantasy game, because their offensive power is excessive. But neither character needed penalty skill levels to be abusive.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Perhaps it is the +4 or +5 DC ability in certain martial arts manuevers that is more of the problem. If a Longbow does 2d6 a head shot will kill an average person with 3 def less than 50% of the time (rolls 8-12 kill - rolls 2-3 do no body- rolls 4-7 do increasing amounts of body (2-4-6-8 pts). But doing 4d6-1 (I don't know the odds) is going to Kill or almost kill in one hit the vast marjoity of the time. If is doesn't kill it will almost certainly stun or knockout with one hit.

 

I think I am getting analysis paralysis.

 

Perhaps some play testing on my part is in order. (4 out of 5 Gnolls say....)

[JmOz]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Im not sure what you mean by this...

 

a) Hit Locations are an OPTIONAL rule.

Even if a GM does use Hit Location rules in a superheroic game the recommended approach is to just use it for extra color regarding where the target was hit, but to still apply generalized damage.

 

So unless you are deliberately using the optional Hit Location rules in your superheroic games as they are typically used for heroic games (i.e with damage multiples applied by location), calling shots to the head in a supers game wouldn't have any extra effect than the rolled damage of the attack

 

 

Don't know about your experience, but most games I have been in have used the rules for called shots...

[atlascott]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

double the cost of csl's past 2. past 4, 3x the cost. that keeps things very expensive for high level stuff. make them count the cheap ones first--so higher ones (cost doubled or tripled) I agree, csl's can definitely unbalance things. The only thing you can do without setting off a player revolt is make some rules and make it pure economics--go get your skill levels, but pay for 'em.

 

csl's can be too cheap.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

double the cost of csl's past 2. past 4, 3x the cost. that keeps things very expensive for high level stuff. make them count the cheap ones first--so higher ones (cost doubled or tripled) I agree, csl's can definitely unbalance things. The only thing you can do without setting off a player revolt is make some rules and make it pure economics--go get your skill levels, but pay for 'em.

 

csl's can be too cheap.

 

For those sho keep increasing the cost of skill levels, do you apply a similar exponential increase to stats? If I have to pay 10 points for +1 level with Martial Arts, then buying my DEX up 3 points for an effective cost of 15 (18 because I'm over NCM, less 3 back on my SPD) starts to look more cost-effective. Once I'm paying triple for a 5 point level, the extra DEX becomes a no brainer.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

Don't know about your experience' date=' but most games I have been in have used the rules for called shots...[/quote']

 

In a supers campaign? And applied the damage multiples? That has never been done in any of the supers games Ive run or played in -- the large number of damage classes being tossed around in a supers campaign would make that excessively powerful.

 

In my experience damage is either generalized or location based not both.

[Alibear]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I played a character who could always hit the heart, loation 13.

 

I bought it as 8 psl, costs end, only location 13, only creatures with living working hearts, concentrate 1/2 dcv, OIF weapon of opportunity.

 

It seemed to work well for what it was intened to do. The one shot one kill fantasy archer type bloke. Was it unbalancing? Not really as other characters were equally deadly. Deadly blow, magical weapons, Berserker furey, Magical Multipowers etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

In a supers campaign? And applied the damage multiples? That has never been done in any of the supers games Ive run or played in -- the large number of damage classes being tossed around in a supers campaign would make that excessively powerful.

 

I've seen a few posters who indicate their Supers game includes the hit location rules. I agree that use of hit locations, or more to the point, called shots for damage, creates a lot of problems in a Supers game, for a number of reasons. While the large DC's make this powerful, but I don't think that's the main issue, or even the biggest one.

 

The fact that the cost of enough PSL's to entirely offset hit location penalties is a constant means this is much more affordable the higher total points rise. In a 75+75 game, where a typical attack is 6DC, spending 24 points to get 8 PSL's and offset all hit location penalties is pretty expensive - you could almost double your attack for the same price (more, actually, since most attacks will have limitations). In a game where the typical attack is 12 DC's, paying 24 points to always make a head shot is much more economical.

 

As well, my experience is that the CV spread is much higher in a Supers game. If a Martial Artist can always go for a head shot against a Brick (and score double damage), the fact he's got a couple of DC's less than the Brick isn't all that disadvantageous.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I played a character who could always hit the heart, loation 13.

 

I bought it as 8 psl, costs end, only location 13, only creatures with living working hearts, concentrate 1/2 dcv, OIF weapon of opportunity.

 

It seemed to work well for what it was intened to do. The one shot one kill fantasy archer type bloke. Was it unbalancing? Not really as other characters were equally deadly. Deadly blow, magical weapons, Berserker furey, Magical Multipowers etc.

 

Emphasis added.

 

This is the key - the ability itself is neither balanced nor unbalanced. The campaign as a whole determines whether it is balanced. If this ability allows the character to overshadow the rest of the characters in the game, it's unbalanced. If the ability merely allows the character to remain competetive with the other characters in the game, NOT allowing it would be unbalanced.

[JmOz]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

In a supers campaign? And applied the damage multiples? That has never been done in any of the supers games Ive run or played in -- the large number of damage classes being tossed around in a supers campaign would make that excessively powerful.

 

In my experience damage is either generalized or location based not both.

 

In my games, and almost every game I have played in, yah

 

With little to no problems, first it has hardly been used (my PC an archer has probably used it the most), it should be noted that there are very few non range based PSL's floating around. I would say called shots have been used as often as pushing is in the games I've been involved with.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

In my games, and almost every game I have played in, yah

 

With little to no problems, first it has hardly been used (my PC an archer has probably used it the most), it should be noted that there are very few non range based PSL's floating around. I would say called shots have been used as often as pushing is in the games I've been involved with.

 

The math alone reveals that it would be unbalancing in a typical supers game. Even in just a 350 point game and following the suggested guidelines for standard supers a character making a head shot with a 12d6 attack using the Hit Location rules is getting a HUGE increase in effect, and only characters with defenses excessively beyond the recommended range would be able to resist it.

 

Any time multiples come in to play, scalability becomes a concern. In a gritty heroic campaigns, which the optional Hit Location rules are intended for, the damage classes being thrown around are typically much lower, and heightened lethality is also desired.

 

Personally, I have never and would never allow it; the default Generalized Damage is the best (and recommended) approach to superheroic / high damage class but low lethality campaigns IMO.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

The GM made all characters.

 

Headshot made them all equal.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

The math alone reveals that it would be unbalancing in a typical supers game. Even in just a 350 point game and following the suggested guidelines for standard supers a character making a head shot with a 12d6 attack using the Hit Location rules is getting a HUGE increase in effect, and only characters with defenses excessively beyond the recommended range would be able to resist it.

 

Any time multiples come in to play, scalability becomes a concern. In a gritty heroic campaigns, which the optional Hit Location rules are intended for, the damage classes being thrown around are typically much lower, and heightened lethality is also desired.

 

Personally, I have never and would never allow it; the default Generalized Damage is the best (and recommended) approach to superheroic / high damage class but low lethality campaigns IMO.

 

It creates a different feel, but not an entirely non superheroic one.

You get far more of a Wild Cards/Iron age feel to the games.

We've done Champions games with full hit location rules beofre. We've even used the optional 1/2 roll= Max damage critical hit rules. Both change the feel of the game, but neither completely invalidate the genre. You do have to keep strict tabs on character design to avoid munchkinism, however.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I ran a campaign with an ex-assassin character who bought PSL to reflect his ability to kill with a single blow. Since most of his weapons were small, concealable sorts, the double damage from a head shot was not too unbalancing.

 

But...

 

What happened was that not only was the BDY doubled, but the STN multiplier for a head shot is x5. So this character became all or nothing; either he missed entirely or he took the foe out (sometimes killing, but almost always K.O.'ed). This was very frustrating for both me and the player.

 

My solution: get rid of PSL for hit location. If the assassin (or someone else)wants to do extra damage, buy Deadly Blow +1d6 KA with a DEX roll attached or martial arts or something. Personally I do not see much logical justification for them anyway. Why is the character more accurate doing a placed shot than just hitting in general? With the exception of a the magical vorpal blade (+8 PSL only vs. head) and its ilk, I do not see a basis for it.

 

Well there are my well-worn two cents. For what it is worth (with inflation, probably not even two cents).

 

___________________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too

- Alice in Chains

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

It creates a different feel, but not an entirely non superheroic one.

You get far more of a Wild Cards/Iron age feel to the games.

We've done Champions games with full hit location rules beofre. We've even used the optional 1/2 roll= Max damage critical hit rules. Both change the feel of the game, but neither completely invalidate the genre. You do have to keep strict tabs on character design to avoid munchkinism, however.

Yes, I know this.

 

Perhaps I'm not being clear...

 

 

JmOz is saying that he allows "called shots" in his Generalized Damage Superheroic games, and that he uses the Hit Location multiples for such attacks instead of Generalized Damage.

 

I'm saying that if you use the Generalized Damage rules for supers, then you should not allow this, per the recommendation of rules as well as common sense looking at the rampant scaling of multiples applied to high Damage Classes.

 

Hit Locations are an alternate option intended to be used instead of Generalized Damage for campaigns that are supposed to be gritty, not used in addition to Generalized Damage in superheroic games.

[Gary]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

What I like for hit locations is a flat increase for head or vitals shots. So damage would be +2 DCs for Stomach or Vitals, and +4 DCs for Head Shots. This cannot more than double the base attack. (This will not work in reverse for arm/leg/hands/feet hits, however)

 

This gives a reasonable bonus for hitting a soft area without unbalancing the game, and makes the PSLs cost effective without being overwhelming.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

What I like for hit locations is a flat increase for head or vitals shots. So damage would be +2 DCs for Stomach or Vitals, and +4 DCs for Head Shots. This cannot more than double the base attack. (This will not work in reverse for arm/leg/hands/feet hits, however)

 

This gives a reasonable bonus for hitting a soft area without unbalancing the game, and makes the PSLs cost effective without being overwhelming.

 

Yah; flat damage classes rather than multiples make the rules much more scalable; they figured that out for Haymaker why not Hit Location multiples?

[Rapier]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

I love me some crits and fumbles. Always have.

 

We've got some charts that have been handed down to me from a few others over the years. When we call shots, we don't go to the Hit Location Chart for damage mods, we go to our crits chart.

 

You roll for severity and that will add some DCs to the attack. There are also built in some maiming and effects built into the chart. I probably should have mentioned all this earlier.

 

It should not come as a surprise that a 4d6 RKA will do about 14 BODY and 49 STUN, that's average. So a head shot (x2 BODY/x5 STUN) would take that to 28 BODY and 70 STUN. What's the max damage on the attack? 24 BODY and 120 STUN.

 

Now, sure, being able to pretty much do "max damage" on an attack with frequency could become an issue in some games, but it doesn't necessarily break the system.

 

You still have to look at how this is being used. Why would someone call head-shots every single time? Even in FH, where death to the enemies is to be expected, players shouldn't be getting a free pass to metagame. If I'm a band of goblins and see this guy lop the heads of three of my mates, you can bet I'm gonna shift some CSLs into covering my noggin.

 

It also should come as no surprise to your average warrior/monster/etc that their head is rather vulnerable. Many will choose to protect the head/neck with extra armour. Why would a character choose to attack a well protected area (head) as opposed to a less protected area?

 

I understand what you all are saying and agree to some point. But I also think that you are worst casing the scenario with a bad player. The problem is then with the bad player and not the mechanic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

It should not come as a surprise that a 4d6 RKA will do about 14 BODY and 49 STUN, that's average. So a head shot (x2 BODY/x5 STUN) would take that to 28 BODY and 70 STUN. What's the max damage on the attack? 24 BODY and 120 STUN.

 

Now, sure, being able to pretty much do "max damage" on an attack with frequency could become an issue in some games, but it doesn't necessarily break the system.

 

Whether it breaks the system depends on the specific game being played. If the other characters have equally powerful abilities, and the opposition is geared to match the power level, NOT having such an ability may be game breaking. If the rest of the group lacks this kind of power, the sole character possessing it will be excessively powerful.

 

You still have to look at how this is being used. Why would someone call head-shots every single time? Even in FH' date=' where death to the enemies is to be expected, players shouldn't be getting a free pass to metagame. If I'm a band of goblins and see this guy lop the heads of three of my mates, you can bet I'm gonna shift some CSLs into covering my noggin. [/quote']

 

Let's assume that the PC has 8 PSL's vs hit locations and a 6 OCV. We'll give Goblins a 5 DCV, and 4 combat levels (pretty tough goblins, IMO). If the goblins use their levels for OCV, the PC needs a 12- to hit whether he targets the head, the heart or the hand. Presumably, the character knows that he has no more difficulty with a head shot than a hand shot, and will take the shot that gives him the best chance at ending the battle.

 

Now, the Goblins can certainly move their levels into DCV. Now the PC needs an 8- to hit them. But he still has the same 8- whether he targets the head, the heart or the hand. Logically, he'll still take the shot most likely to disable the target.

 

It also should come as no surprise to your average warrior/monster/etc that their head is rather vulnerable. Many will choose to protect the head/neck with extra armour. Why would a character choose to attack a well protected area (head) as opposed to a less protected area?

 

How much extra armor can you reasonably apply to the head and neck? You need to be able to see, and turning your head is probably desirable as well. But if the Goblins are all wearing 3" steel around their heads, Our Hero will presumably turn to a less defended area. Again, he has his pick of areas to attack, so he can choose the least defended one. Hit location penalties aren't an issue, remember?

 

I understand what you all are saying and agree to some point. But I also think that you are worst casing the scenario with a bad player. The problem is then with the bad player and not the mechanic.

 

The problem is allowing the player (bad or good) to utilize the mechanic in a manner which unbalances the game. Part of the problem is that we don't know the full context. If this character has 4d6 KA and 8 PSL's against hit locations in a game where the other PC's have 6 to 9 DC attacks with no special targetting abilities, there's a problem. Since the player is concerned his character is overpowered (a concern I find rarely raised by "bad players", by the way), it looks like that's a reasonable read on the game.

 

If the other characters had equally powerful abilities, there would be less of an isssue. Maybe they'd walk all over the opposition, a problem of its own. But assuming challenges tailored to their power level, this just means we have Fantasy genre characters with Supers level attacks, and larger than life opponents with similar power levels that would demolish a group of 75+75 Fantasy characters without raising a sweat.

[azato]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

But assuming challenges tailored to their power level' date=' this just means we have Fantasy genre characters with Supers level attacks, and larger than life opponents with similar power levels that would demolish a group of 75+75 Fantasy characters without raising a sweat.[/quote']

 

That is where I was getting at. To put it simply I am playing a game with my son. So I am both DM and Playing at the same time. We are also learning the rules as we go. Given the parameters within the rules I made up an archer character that can take out trolls with only one shot. That becomes a problem when I can do it phase after phase. I might as well make all characters archers. I do not want a campaign that is HIGH LEVEL. starting out at this ability means that to make things challanging they would need to fight High level monsters OR NPC's that can do likewise. With the martial arts manuevers I am able to add extra DC's to my attack. With hit locations I am able to get severe multipliers (body and stun). All this is done within the rules.

 

I am thinking of three possiblities (or combinations thereof)

1. up to 4 levels in PSL for aimed shots.

2. A max of +2 DC for Martial Arts weapon manuevers

3. A max number if CSL's starting out (like maybe 5)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

That is where I was getting at. To put it simply I am playing a game with my son. So I am both DM and Playing at the same time. We are also learning the rules as we go. Given the parameters within the rules I made up an archer character that can take out trolls with only one shot. That becomes a problem when I can do it phase after phase. I might as well make all characters archers. I do not want a campaign that is HIGH LEVEL. starting out at this ability means that to make things challanging they would need to fight High level monsters OR NPC's that can do likewise. With the martial arts manuevers I am able to add extra DC's to my attack. With hit locations I am able to get severe multipliers (body and stun). All this is done within the rules.

 

I am thinking of three possiblities (or combinations thereof)

1. up to 4 levels in PSL for aimed shots.

2. A max of +2 DC for Martial Arts weapon manuevers

3. A max number if CSL's starting out (like maybe 5)

 

I'm curious how many points you're playing with. 8 PSL's for bows would cost at least 12 points. +5 DC's with Martial maneuvers is 20 more. 5 CSL's is at least 15. That's 47 points, and you still need to pay for stats, weapon familiarities, the basic martial arts maneuvers, etc. Unless the character is built solely for combat, that's likely not affordable on a 150 point character.

 

Maybe you need to look at the overall point base or, alternatively, fleshing the character's non-combat skills out.

 

BTW, "make everyone an archer" isn't the conclusion I would reach. A swordsman can just as easily have Martial Arts with his sword, doubling his maximum damage, and buy the same PSL's.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Do PSL vs Hit Locations Unablance the Game?

 

What I like for hit locations is a flat increase for head or vitals shots. So damage would be +2 DCs for Stomach or Vitals, and +4 DCs for Head Shots. This cannot more than double the base attack. (This will not work in reverse for arm/leg/hands/feet hits, however)

 

This gives a reasonable bonus for hitting a soft area without unbalancing the game, and makes the PSLs cost effective without being overwhelming.

 

I like this idea a lot. I will definitely have to use this approach for hit locations in the future. Repped.