Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

[Funksaw]

I think Universal Translator might be overpriced at 20 points, when you could get the same effect this way:

 

VPP 7 base + 1 Control Cost; Cosmic +2 <16AP>; Very Limited Class Of Powers (Only Language Skills; -1) Real Cost: 11 pts.

 

This may be min-maxing, but... well, there you go.

[OzMike]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Don't forget requires an INT roll (or a skill roll)....

[SAVeira]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I do not consider Universal Translator overpriced by any means.

 

As for the suggest VPP, I personally would never allow that construct in my campaigns.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Putting Skills into a VPP is already a "GM permission" ability. Plus many heroic-level campaigns don't allow Powers and/or Power Frameworks for characters, but may be "cinematic" enough to allow Talents.

 

Also keep in mind that Universal Translator allows comprehension of any type of communication, from spoken speech to sign language, to growls or clicks, to Se'ecra wing-flutters.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I love it, and the cost is fine. This comes from 25+ yrs of playing HERO.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

If you don't like Universal Translator, pick up TUSk and use the Language Skill muliplier that is in the book to get dozens of languages.

 

I love skill multipliers, I hope Simon will get these (and the Speed Force) into Hero Designer soon so I can crank out a few NPCs I've wanted to make.

 

TB

[Vondy]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Personally, its a good buy. Start slapping limitations on it and it becomes a steal.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Particularly compared to a VPP, where Lims only apply to the Control Cost.

[nexus]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Skills in a variable power pool are strictly GM permission.

[nexus]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

If you don't like Universal Translator, pick up TUSk and use the Language Skill muliplier that is in the book to get dozens of languages.

 

I love skill multipliers, I hope Simon will get these (and the Speed Force) into Hero Designer soon so I can crank out a few NPCs I've wanted to make.

 

TB

 

I'm still waiting for my copy.

[Dreadnought]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I'd allow this in my game, but that's because it's superheroic and language doesn't come up very much, so 20 points would be a little much for something that won't be used very often.

[Mentor]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Add me to the "Universal Translator tesimonial" group. My current PC, Prodigy is a very powerful psychic with a working knowledge of most languges because his is 900 years old, so that was the only reasonably priced method.

[CBikle]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I think the high price is there to keep Universal Translator from making the linguist and language skills from becoming obsolete, which is a good idea.

 

That having been said, two extra points of speed will ALWAYS be more useful.

[OddHat]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

The Language VPP Method is fine for games where skills in general are very cheap, I'd expect every player in such a setting would end up with some kind of Skill VPP. Cyberpunk (skill chips) or wild time or dimension travel (go study for 100 years, come back in the same instant) style settings come to mind as places where it might be appropriate.

 

In settings where skills are purchased at full price, Universal Translator and the other Universals (Scientist, Traveller, etc) become very reasonable buys. As Von mentioned, allow a limitation ("Only Human languages that the character could reasonably have studdied, -1/2", "OAF:Translation Box", "Restrainable-1/4:Translator Microbes", etc) and Universal Translator becomes a bargain.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I find certain talents to be very campaign-dependent in terms of importance.

 

If the issue of communication is important in the game (such as a fantasy world with no common tongue, or star-faring explorers into the unknown), then having the ability to converse with strangers no matter where they're from is highly prized. In a superhero campaign where all the aliens speak English with a British accent, it's pretty much just decoration.

 

My experience with that involved Ambidexterity. I paid for it for my martial artist character as part of his concept. Yet not once in the five years that the campaign ran did it come into play.

 

So, a lot of it depends on how much of a factor language is in the particular campaign the GM is running, and how much emphasis he/she puts on the fact that the other guy doesn't speak the same lingo as you do.

 

Bottom line, answering a question like "Is Universal Translator too expensive" depends too much on what game you're using it in.

[tesuji]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

to be frank, the few campaigns i have been in where the Gm intended to make language an issue were frustrating while he did so. There is a good reason most movies and shows and books gloss over such details... it gets in the way of character interaction.

 

Same thing for games.

 

So pretty much in almost every game i have seen points spent on languages amounted to "points thrown away for character backfround that will likely never matter much." As Gm if someone invests many points into languages, i try and make it applt but that means situations where the communication barrier comes into play and thats not usually something I try and emphasize.

 

So mostly anymore I allo a "reasonable set of free langauges" as everyman skills based on culture and background and never charge for the stuff.

 

Is UT overpriced at 20 pts... god I hope so. I cannot fathom playing happily in a campaign where communication problems play so much of a role as to make "i speak with anyone if i make an int roll" play as much of a role as "2d6 body healing", or "+10 PD/ED" or "+2 speed" or "gaseous form double end cost" or "Divin favor: +2 overall skill levels" or "4d6 luck" and so forth...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

If you don't like Universal Translator, pick up TUSk and use the Language Skill muliplier that is in the book to get dozens of languages.

 

I love skill multipliers, I hope Simon will get these (and the Speed Force) into Hero Designer soon so I can crank out a few NPCs I've wanted to make.

 

TB

 

You can already do the Speed Force in HD as is. I've made several, starting the first day the Ultimate Speedster was available in stores.

 

Use a custom Adders for the duraction and speed level on the EDM power, Rapid with Normal Sight is available under Enhanced Senses, and the Transdimensional on STR is bought as a Naked Power Advantage.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Hype.shtml

(Hi Powered sheet and HD file)

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Turbofist.shtml

(Hi Powered sheet and HD file)

 

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Breakneck_SpeedZone.HTML

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Johnny%20Tick-Tock.HTML

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

You can already do the Speed Force in HD as is. I've made several, starting the first day the Ultimate Speedster was available in stores.

 

Use a custom Adders for the duraction and speed level on the EDM power, Rapid with Normal Sight is available under Enhanced Senses, and the Transdimensional on STR is bought as a Naked Power Advantage.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Hype.shtml

(Hi Powered sheet and HD file)

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_Turbofist.shtml

(Hi Powered sheet and HD file)

 

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Breakneck_SpeedZone.HTML

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Johnny%20Tick-Tock.HTML

That's a cludge, no thanks. I'll keep asking that it gets added into the App.

 

TB

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

That's a cludge, no thanks. I'll keep asking that it gets added into the App.

 

TB

 

Its not a kludge, its how the application works.

[Vondy]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

to be frank, the few campaigns i have been in where the Gm intended to make language an issue were frustrating while he did so. There is a good reason most movies and shows and books gloss over such details... it gets in the way of character interaction.

 

Same thing for games.

 

So pretty much in almost every game i have seen points spent on languages amounted to "points thrown away for character backfround that will likely never matter much." As Gm if someone invests many points into languages, i try and make it applt but that means situations where the communication barrier comes into play and thats not usually something I try and emphasize.

 

So mostly anymore I allo a "reasonable set of free langauges" as everyman skills based on culture and background and never charge for the stuff.

 

Is UT overpriced at 20 pts... god I hope so. I cannot fathom playing happily in a campaign where communication problems play so much of a role as to make "i speak with anyone if i make an int roll" play as much of a role as "2d6 body healing", or "+10 PD/ED" or "+2 speed" or "gaseous form double end cost" or "Divin favor: +2 overall skill levels" or "4d6 luck" and so forth...

 

Which amounts to an ad hominem attack on other people's play styles - and the fact that hero doesn't cater specifically to yours - rather than an objective criticism.

[tesuji]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

hmmm

 

"objective criticism"?

 

The issue is about whether a given thing is costed too high.

 

Well first off, There os NO objective response to that question at all.

That is, unless somewhere while i was away some universal power established objective standards for "these should be this valuable in campaigns" that gained universal acceptance. An objective response is not possible, so all we are left with are subjective ones.

 

Second, already in this thread some have said "Personally, its a good buy. " and "I do not consider Universal Translator overpriced by any means." and "I love it, and the cost is fine. This comes from 25+ yrs of playing HERO." and so forth... all of which are SUBJECTIVE conclusions.I it really doesn't seem like anyone is objecting to or criticizing subjective responses and conclusions... until now.

 

As for the accusation of my making an "ad hominem attack" you lost me there. What "other people's play style" do you think I even mentioned, much less attacked?

 

I have been in a few games where the GM tried to make, as a matter of setting/flavor, communication issues play a noticeable role... that is to say it was common for during a scene one or more of the players to have serious difficulties in communicating with NPCs who were intended to be communicated with.

 

One of three things happened each rather quickly.

 

1. The game folded in frustration and another started up without such setting issues.

 

2. The Gm handwaved it away, easiest way by simply allowing the "non-communicative characters" to speak normally and be responded to normally with a sort of nod-nod-wink-wink being given to "yeah, joey is saying it to bobbi who is translating to the alien who is responding back to bob but bob tells it to joey and yeah of course bobbi will always translate everything Ok so we can just talk normally right??"

 

3. The players all bought the needed language skills (some with Xp, some with character replacements) so that it no longer impacted play in any way. Effectively at that point, languages ceased to play any role, and characters just worked with less points, as once every character has the "relevent" languages, it doesn't matter.

 

none of these resulted in a game played successfully and enijoyed where languages played a significant role.

 

Since i have yet to encounter the player who enjoys not being able to interact with NPCs when interaction is called for, and know I don't like it, I have a really hard time understanding why it would be enjoyable.

 

Hey, at least on of those games where the Gm tried making languages play a significant role was run by me. Its a mistake i made and learned from. I understand the "intellectual appeal" of "it should be that way" and you know, hey, it makes perfect sense that every planet stargate fellows go thru to see each week should have a gross language problem... only being understandable to daniel jackson more or less, but can you imagine the show lasting ten years if every week, or nine weeks out of ten the only guy able to speak to the new NPCs was Daniel?

 

If you can imagine that not being fun to watch, now imagine how little fun that mi8ght be to actually play and try and direct the characters with all that going on?

 

there is a reason that most films, most shows, most books tend to handwave away the language issues. Its a good reason. One can learn from it.

 

there may be a group out there who enjoys commonly not being able to communicate with NPCs, and who don't use one of the above tricks to simply handwave it away (or other tricks i haven't seen) and if so, thats great and wonderful and all that jazz, but i really hope they aren't so sensitive as to think other's not liking their choice for their own play is somehow an attack!?

[casualplayer]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Like all of the non-scalable, whole cost powers the view on price is heavily influenced by the base points you start with in your genre of choice. In Star Champions it's barely a pinch of your points while in Pulp Hero it's 13% of your bankroll. Most everyone in Star Champions picks it up so that you can talk to the Gleepnees of Tellurik IV as soon as you meet them the first time while only the cloistered academic usually buys UT in Pulp Hero. As I feel with all of the bulk priced powers, UT could do with a makeover to make it scalable appropriate to genre, a la the VPP suggested at the get go.

 

There are ways to keep someone from player-advantaging the VPP construct. If the pool is bare-bones 4-7 pts, what happens if there is more than one type of alien/monster/non-human race in the conversation? Gaming fun can be had if you give the wrong participant the short end of the linguist stick and say something that means one thing in one language and something else entirely in another. I have a friend who had a big meal with friends while in Australia and said "No thanks, I'm stuffed" when asked if she wanted some pie.

 

I haven't seen what was suggested yet in Ultimate Skill, and am looking forward to it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I have a friend who had a big meal with friends while in Australia and said "No thanks, I'm stuffed" when asked if she wanted some pie.

I dont get it. What does that mean in Australia?

[casualplayer]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

I dont get it. What does that mean in Australia?

 

Stuffed means fuct in Australia.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Universal Translator: Overpriced at 20?

 

Stuffed means fuct in Australia.

 

You know, as in....actually that probably doesn't apply in my case

 

Anyway, for those ploughing (NO, NOT pluffing) through this thread:

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

 

Personally I'm with those who pointed out that context is everything and, frankly, I see nothing wrong with tetsuji's point that if 20 points is worth it then it is a pretty 'different' campaign: most of the time the ability of a player to translate or speak any number of languages is more help to the GM than the player.

 

Whilst we are on the subject I see no good reason that language skills have a different system to every other skill AND, just to ice the cherry on the icing on the cake, Daniel Jackson only works because the producers don't kill him often.

 

OTOH I do acknowledge that a very cheap UT skill would make virtually all other language skills obsolete. The dichotomy is that 20 points is a reasonable amount in a superhero game and an awful lot in most other genres.

 

Frankly if that is what is charged it is up to the GM to make it worthwhile. Of course that would mean that the players are indirectly writing the script.

 

So maybe we should be hearing this conversation more;

 

GM: I see you have UT on your character sheet. That costs 20 points - that's a lot.

 

Player: Yeah, cool, huh? I've always wanted to understand foreign stuff and play an intellectual.

 

GM: What I'm saying is that it is not likely to be much use in this campaign, which is set mainly in Liverpool in England. So long as you can speak Scouse you'll be fine.

 

Player: Yeah, but I can translate Runes and stuff and there's bound to be alien languages and so on.

 

GM: No that was last game. I'm telling you WASTE OF POINTS

 

Player: Just imagine it though, being able to understand people from Birmingham, AND Newcastle, AND Glasgow AND Cardiff, AND London.

 

GM: OK, you may have a point....

 

Anyway, that's wahat I think.