Spending END

[Sean Waters]

Just an idle thought, but I was looking at powers with END reduction the other day and thinking that the game I play might be a little more interesting if I banned that as an advantage and made the player spend the points on upping their END and/or REC instead. It would certainly make those characteristics more valuable, and would potentially better model the source material where characters do get tired - in most Champions type games END is only ever really an issue when the character is recovering from a KO.

 

On a related topic, END reserve: why do we have that at all? I mean I'd have thought that buying limited characteristics-as-powers would have been better: afterall END reserve makes END ludicrously cheap, and if the REC isn't (1 point as opposed to 2) that is hardly a balancing factor when a 15 point investment yields 150 points of END.

 

Finally, END TO ACTIVATE - OK, i know a lot of you like it - so do I, really, but it just does not balance cost-wise (and don't try to argue that it does - you are wrong*) so to balance the utility I was thinking of allowing it but as 'Costs 2x (or 3x or 4x) END to activate then nothing to maintain'. Seems fairer, somehow. Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

*Boy I'm in a mood

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Just an idle thought, but I was looking at powers with END reduction the other day and thinking that the game I play might be a little more interesting if I banned that as an advantage and made the player spend the points on upping their END and/or REC instead. It would certainly make those characteristics more valuable, and would potentially better model the source material where characters do get tired - in most Champions type games END is only ever really an issue when the character is recovering from a KO.

 

On a related topic, END reserve: why do we have that at all? I mean I'd have thought that buying limited characteristics-as-powers would have been better: afterall END reserve makes END ludicrously cheap, and if the REC isn't (1 point as opposed to 2) that is hardly a balancing factor when a 15 point investment yields 150 points of END.

 

Finally, END TO ACTIVATE - OK, i know a lot of you like it - so do I, really, but it just does not balance cost-wise (and don't try to argue that it does - you are wrong*) so to balance the utility I was thinking of allowing it but as 'Costs 2x (or 3x or 4x) END to activate then nothing to maintain'. Seems fairer, somehow. Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

*Boy I'm in a mood

 

Eliminating Reduced End advantages and End Reserves just make SPD that much more powerful as well (besides REC and END) since being knocked out resets END to 0 and the matter of WHEN you get your next REC is probably more important than HOW MUCH you get.

 

On a more roleplaying level, removing those options eliminates the possibility of building characters whose power concept includes 'near-unlimited energy' and near instantaneous access to their powers even though their physical body is still beat down and tired.

[Insaniac99]

Re: Spending END

 

I think that to switch away from endurance reserves would caues batteries and similiar objects to be very clunky instead of the streamlined aproach. the miggest diference between the end reserve is that it recharges at a steady rate (default once per turn) independant of whether the character is KOed or takes a recovery otherwise you need to apply a bunch of advantages and disadvantages to plain end to get the same efect. Unless you're going very realistic end usually doesn't play a big part anyway, you just have to worry about it after a long battle or if you are pushing a lot. in the realistic settings you just don't let people take end reserves for the most part.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

Also, reserves don't seem to zero when the character goes down and even an unconscious character can spend END from a reserve.

 

Now, personally I think that is worth more than is charged for it. I mean, I think I can see, having thought about it, the utility of the power, just not the justification for it being so cheap.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Spending END

 

If you want to mirror the comic book characters getting tired, just tell the characters that they can't have Reduced END unless they can justify it in the concept of the character. GMs have final rule on all character builds, and if you want that flavor, enforce it.

 

END Reserve is really useful for modeling some character concepts (like the power suit guy), but I could certainly see a good argument for making the END and REC cost the same or slightly less than regular END and REC. Slightly less because you can't push powers in an END Reserve and because only certain powers have access to it (although maybe the latter should be a limitation on the power not the END Reserve).

 

The biggest drawback for characters running on END Reserves is the Drain. Sure the END is cheap to buy, but it is ridiculously easy to wipe out a END Reserve with even a low level Drain. This happened once to my players and I have not seen an END Reserve since.

 

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Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too.

- Alice in Chains

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Also, reserves don't seem to zero when the character goes down and even an unconscious character can spend END from a reserve.

 

Now, personally I think that is worth more than is charged for it. I mean, I think I can see, having thought about it, the utility of the power, just not the justification for it being so cheap.

 

Well, the most common use of End Reserves seems to be with Powered-Armor characters. I seem to remember a rule about when an attack ever does body that gets through the defense provided by the Suit then ALL the powers provided by the suit have a chance of failure (including the End Reserve).

 

Normal REC never has that problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

If you want to mirror the comic book characters getting tired, just tell the characters that they can't have Reduced END unless they can justify it in the concept of the character. GMs have final rule on all character builds, and if you want that flavor, enforce it.

 

END Reserve is really useful for modeling some character concepts (like the power suit guy), but I could certainly see a good argument for making the END and REC cost the same or slightly less than regular END and REC. Slightly less because you can't push powers in an END Reserve and because only certain powers have access to it (although maybe the latter should be a limitation on the power not the END Reserve).

 

The biggest drawback for characters running on END Reserves is the Drain. Sure the END is cheap to buy, but it is ridiculously easy to wipe out a END Reserve with even a low level Drain. This happened once to my players and I have not seen an END Reserve since.

 

____________________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too.

- Alice in Chains

 

The drain is no more effective against a reserve than against normal END - you don't drain 10 points per point.

 

Having powers not turn off when you get KO'd is worth a lot IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

Well, the most common use of End Reserves seems to be with Powered-Armor characters. I seem to remember a rule about when an attack ever does body that gets through the defense provided by the Suit then ALL the powers provided by the suit have a chance of failure (including the End Reserve).

 

Normal REC never has that problem.

 

Presumably it would if it were bought through a focus, like a powersuit?

 

The END reserve does not need to be bought as or through a focus and so would not then suffer that disadvantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Presumably it would if it were bought through a focus, like a powersuit?

 

The END reserve does not need to be bought as or through a focus and so would not then suffer that disadvantage.

 

A more apples to apples comparison then...

 

Normal REC can be used to make recoveries any phase a character wants to. An END Battery's REC rate can never be reduced lower than once per turn. Any powers that have the option of using both Normal END/REC and an End Battery/REC must take a +1/4 advantage to do so.

 

Seems pretty balanced.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

A more apples to apples comparison then...

 

Normal REC can be used to make recoveries any phase a character wants to. An END Battery's REC rate can never be reduced lower than once per turn. Any powers that have the option of using both Normal END/REC and an End Battery/REC must take a +1/4 advantage to do so.

 

Seems pretty balanced.

 

Well, that's OK for when you are not in combat and it doesn't really matter much, but, in almost every game I've played, stop for a recovery without running FAR away first and you might as well just hand a target on a six inch string off your belly button.

 

To do a Bramley/Granny Smith comparison:

 

10 REC (END only -1) and 50 END costs 35 points to buy as characteristics

 

as an END reserve it costs 15 points.

 

Even if you make the REC limitation -2 the cost works out at 32 points. Hell, make it -4 and it still costs 30 points.

 

Say all your powers and - well - everything draws power fromt he reserve, sell back your base END...you're good.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

Then you could limit your normal REC so that it doesn't recover normal END.

 

Cool.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Spending END

 

The drain is no more effective against a reserve than against normal END - you don't drain 10 points per point.

 

Having powers not turn off when you get KO'd is worth a lot IMO.

 

Say what? I thought Drain worked vs. the active points in power or CHA. That is how I have always played it and it seemed like a balanced approach. Did I miss something?

 

Having your END after being KO'd is definitely worth a lot, you are right there. I have had characters buy extra REC only useable when unconscious so that when they come around they are in fighting condition (with justification of course; one such character was an android and another could manipulate time).

 

______________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too.

- Alice in Chains

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Well, that's OK for when you are not in combat and it doesn't really matter much, but, in almost every game I've played, stop for a recovery without running FAR away first and you might as well just hand a target on a six inch string off your belly button.

 

To do a Bramley/Granny Smith comparison:

 

10 REC (END only -1) and 50 END costs 35 points to buy as characteristics

 

as an END reserve it costs 15 points.

 

Even if you make the REC limitation -2 the cost works out at 32 points. Hell, make it -4 and it still costs 30 points.

 

Say all your powers and - well - everything draws power fromt he reserve, sell back your base END...you're good.

 

 

Isn't there a rule about 'Inherent Abilities' that applies here?

 

I beleive the End Reserve and REC can be dispelled but the REC characteristic cannot be under normal circumstanses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spending END

 

Eliminating Reduced End advantages and End Reserves just make SPD that much more powerful as well (besides REC and END) since being knocked out resets END to 0 and the matter of WHEN you get your next REC is probably more important than HOW MUCH you get.

 

On a more roleplaying level, removing those options eliminates the possibility of building characters whose power concept includes 'near-unlimited energy' and near instantaneous access to their powers even though their physical body is still beat down and tired.

 

Ummm...what's wrong with making those powers 0 END? They now have no difficulty accessing their powers no matter how beat down and tired their physical body.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Ummm...what's wrong with making those powers 0 END? They now have no difficulty accessing their powers no matter how beat down and tired their physical body.

 

They would not have the ability to push those powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spending END

 

They would not have the ability to push those powers.

 

Someone mentioned above an inability to puash a power drawing from an END reserve. I don't see this explicitly stated in the rules one way or another. It is noteworthy that the rules say generally a character can only push a power that costs END, leaving room for interpretation that a player might be able to push a power that does not cost END. I'd be inclined to allow a 0 END EB to be Pushed at the usual cost of 11 END, 10 for the Push and 1 for the usual END that extra 2d6 should cost.

 

OTOH, does a power drawing on an END reserve actually "cost END", or is it incapable of being pushed? Is it reasonable that heroic effort can drag forth more output from a battery? From that perspective, I can see the interpretation that a power drawing on an END reserve, rather than personal END, cannot be pushed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

Both 5ed and 5ER state that 0 END powers cannot be pushed (pages 287 and 427 respectively, paragraph starting with the word "Second").

 

In the case of pushing a power that DOES cost END it makes no difference if it comes from normal END or from and END Reserve.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Spending END

 

Both 5ed and 5ER state that 0 END powers cannot be pushed (pages 287 and 427 respectively' date=' paragraph starting with the word "Second"). [/quote']

 

Generally' date=' a character can only Push Powers that cost END. They cannot Push powers that never cost END, that are bought to 0 END or that have charges (but can push powers bought to 1/2 END).[/quote']

 

Note the term "generally". The term "generally" typically means "exceptions exist".

 

In the case of pushing a power that DOES cost END it makes no difference if it comes from normal END or from and END Reserve.

 

Note that powers which draw from an END reserve are not mentioned anywhere. It is a matter of interpretation whether such powers do, in fact, cost END. The character using them doesn't spend any of his own END. The FAQ doesn't hit this issue either. I'm going to get Steve's input for interest, but I would not have a problem with a GM taking either interpretation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

I had not realised the rules forbid pushing a power reduced to zero end by advantages. I've always assumed that you can push it and it costs 10 END for 10 CP as would the power if it did not have the advantage. I really hate finding hidden limtiations in 'advantages'. Kudos to HyperMan for not only educating me but for giving a page reference too.

 

OTOH there is nothing I can see that prevents a power drawing END (and thus costing END to use) from a END reserve from being pushed, albeit the END would clearly need to come from the reserve. 'Overloading the battery' is a comic book classic.

 

One thing you can't do with an END reserve is burn STUN in place of END. Whilst that is a deeply cool thing to do, it doesn't come up often in my games.

 

On the dispel point, although drain cannot affect characteristics, all the other adjustment powers can, so I'm not sure that this is a bonus justifying the enornmous cost savings.

 

One point about END reserve worth remembering is that it starts from zero, whereas every character will inherently have some END and REC, so that is worth something but, as mentioned, you can sell back END you don't need and limti your REC so the actual effect really is minimal.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Spending END

 

As Sean pointed out, there are numerous examples in the source material (comics) of END Reserves being pushed. Probably a dozen or more could be found in Iron-Man comics alone!

[Rapier]

Re: Spending END

 

I think the problem you are perceiving may be localised.

 

Some characters never really run into END problems. Bricks are notoriously END Heavy (thanks to them high physical attribute scores). It's not unreasonable to expect that a guy who can fly, fire beams of energy, create force fields etc would be able to do so for an extended period of time (say 30 or 45 seconds, which in all honesty, is NOT a long time). Other characters can very easily run into END problems. Speedsters need to be careful, especially with all those autofire punches.

 

I see it as a problem, but more one of creation that actual system. It seems that if you ask 14 GMs, you will get 27 different takes on END usage. If it seems to need tweaking in your games, tweak away!

[schir1964]

Re: Spending END

 

Say what? I thought Drain worked vs. the active points in power or CHA.

Adjustment Powers affect the Active Points of Powers, with Characteristics being the exception where the cost of of the Characteristic is used instead. A special exception was made for the END Reserve so that Adjustment Powers affect it as if it were normal END.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Spending END

 

Cool, we've certainly given END reserves a good seeing to, and brushed sensuously past the subject of removing reduced END as an experiment.

 

Unfortunately 'END to activate' seems to be getting no action at all.

 

Serves me right for trying for a menage, I suppose....

[schir1964]

Re: Spending END

 

Cool, we've certainly given END reserves a good seeing to, and brushed sensuously past the subject of removing reduced END as an experiment.

 

Unfortunately 'END to activate' seems to be getting no action at all.

 

Serves me right for trying for a menage, I suppose....

I see nothing wrong with your proposal. Someone mentioned that SPD becomes more important, but I don't believe so. The reason why is that the higher the speed the more END per Turn is expended with constant powers. Also, technically, every phase costs 1 END unless the character is just sitting there doing nothing at 0 DCV. I know many people don't bother with that, but if it were adhered to it would have an effect, especially with the technique you are proposing.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Spending END

 

Adjustment Powers affect the Active Points of Powers, with Characteristics being the exception where the cost of of the Characteristic is used instead. A special exception was made for the END Reserve so that Adjustment Powers affect it as if it were normal END.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thanks for the clarification. That does make the cost of END Reserve rather more suspect though as Sean originally mentioned.

 

And as Sean originally mentioned, the value of END to Activate a power depends on how much END is required and whether it is justifiable (I would let a shapeshifter create Armor with this power, but I wouldn't let Flame-Boy's 0 END Force Field take this limitation).

 

For comparison, I could buy Side Effect 6d6 Drain vs. END whenever power is turned on at -½ limitation. To scale it to -¼ limitation make it 3d6 END with Standard Effect of 10 END. So a -¼ limitation is comparable for a power with 100 active points, but not so at lower levels. This is particularly an issue for active point powers where the character only has to spend a few END to get the power on and then that is it. How much of a limitation is having to spend 5 END to turn on your defenses and enhanced senses in PHA 12 right before you get a recovery? To say nothing of the situation where the character is powered up in advance. Really the limitation only comes into play if the character is knocked out and has no END to speak of when he comes around.

 

There is no smaller limitation than -¼ in HERO (thankfully) so the GM could just disallow END to Activate or require it to cost more than normal END to make the limitation more reasonable.

 

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