The Monster Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy This is a fun idea. IMO, they would would have tanks and steamships before they had railroads. They already had and understood roads, and given that early-model steam engines are rather large and heavy, I could see them building really large land vehicles - traveling forts (to coin a phrase from an old SF novel) more than what we'd automatically recognize as tanks, but the same basic idea: a mobile fighting platform (maybe even modelled on galleys!). Railroads require too much industrialized structure to be likely to pop up first, I think. And steamships would be an instant success over oared or sailed ships, due to efficiency of power/fuel/independence from wind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy IMO' date=' they would would have tanks and steamships before they had railroads. They already had and understood roads, and given that early-model steam engines are rather large and heavy, I could see them building really large land vehicles - traveling forts (to coin a phrase from an old SF novel) more than what we'd automatically recognize as tanks, but the same basic idea: a mobile fighting platform (maybe even modelled on galleys!). [/quote'] I could see them not building steam vehicles, precisely because "early-model steam engines are rather large and heavy". I could, however, see steam powered siege towers or something of the sort, which might kind of fill the space you have indicated. The problem is, however, how you would transport the steam engine into place. By ship seems the most likely, but you would need serious port infrastructure. Railroads require too much industrialized structure to be likely to pop up first, I think. They happened first, historically. And steamships would be an instant success over oared or sailed ships, due to efficiency of power/fuel/independence from wind. Just like they weren't historically... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy I could see one of the first uses being a Steam Hammer - for forging purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy The main obstacle I see to railways as we understood them is the ability to forge an engine large enough to haul a worthwhile load. That requires a foundry capable of making very big pieces of shaped iron. That wouldn't have happened overnight, but with mechanized bellows and triphammers its not a big cognitive leap to being able to pour and cast large iron pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Carman Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy Railroads require too much industrialized structure to be likely to pop up first' date=' I think.[/quote'] They happened first, historically. Historically, the road system was also wretched. It would have taken about equal effort to build a highway or rail network, and the rails would be faster and higher capacity at that tech level. On the other hand, the Romans already had an extensive, well-developed road network to build on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy The main obstacle I see to railways as we understood them is the ability to forge an engine large enough to haul a worthwhile load. That requires a foundry capable of making very big pieces of shaped iron. That wouldn't have happened overnight' date=' but with mechanized bellows and triphammers its not a big cognitive leap to being able to pour and cast large iron pieces.[/quote'] They had the capacity for large architectural works, including concreting. I can't remember any large metal objects the Romans may have constructed (trebuchet parts? ram heads?) but it is well within the capacity to have done so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy On the other hand' date=' the Romans already had an extensive, well-developed road network to build on.[/quote'] True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monster Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy I could see them not building steam vehicles, precisely because "early-model steam engines are rather large and heavy". I could, however, see steam powered siege towers or something of the sort, which might kind of fill the space you have indicated. The problem is, however, how you would transport the steam engine into place. By ship seems the most likely, but you would need serious port infrastructure. They happened first, historically. Just like they weren't historically... I'm sorry you seem to assume I'm an idiot. I specifically said it was not likely they would come up with something we would instantly recognize as tanks - that requires an efficiency and ancillary industries a step beyond railroads. I did say it would more like a traveling fort - gosh, just what you mentioned. But I'm obviously an ingoramus to be brushed off casually. As far as industry versus railroads, if you want to get picky, the two are symbiotic - widespread industry was made possible by and provided probably the greatest impetus toward building the roads in the first place (which, to think of it, might be another difference between how RR develops in a Roman empire and how it developed in America). One could also bicker about the definition of industry; useful engines and rails aren't possible without a certain level of industrial capability (unless you're telling me, in your ineffably superior knowledge, that all early railroads and engines were entirely handmade in barns and tinker's shops). But I'm apparently too stupid to know the difference. And in the realms of nautical design, engines being large and heavy would suggest to me that one of the first applications of half-decent steam engines might well be in shipping. I was considering (or, maybe I wasn't, being of a disdainfully low level of intelligence and awareness) that the comparatively calm waters and shorter distances of the Mediterranean could well lend itself to swifter adoption than the nations which needed ships to be able to weather and cross the Atlantic Ocean. Especially since sailing ships in Roman times were not nearly as sophisticated as those in the 18th-19th centuries, so the historical comparison does not necessarily hold as blithely as you have stated. What the steamships would have to overcome is not full-sized, square-rigged Napoleonic ships, but classical (or even medieval-era) galleys and sailing ships. I'm not saying I'm just plain right about this (or about any of the above), but that I think there are points worth discussing that might be fun to explore. But, then again, anything I might say should just be brushed aside and discarded as the ravings of a drolling ignoramus. If you want to call this a flame, you can, but I really *really* don't like to be insulted like that. If you want to discuss something, I'm happy to; but "discussion" to me does not include sneering at my casual offerings as if they were completely worthless. I hope that I'm capable of more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy On the other hand - where would the concept have come from? That I don't know. They might have never developed that and gone straight to steam powered wagons on their roadways' date=' though the same concept, but for mass transport, could logically lead to the train.[/quote'] Railways as a concept go back to at least the 6th century BCE. There was one in Greece. Of course, they were made of stone, and the vehicles pulled by slaves/animals, but the idea was there. Keith "30 seconds of research" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy Which leads to "what about magical transport in a fantasy setting". It is generally not very well addressed in any fantasy roleplaying game, but would be one of the first uses magic would be put to. Even before "blowing stuff up". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy I'm sorry you seem to assume I'm an idiot. I specifically said it was not likely they would come up with something we would instantly recognize as tanks - that requires an efficiency and ancillary industries a step beyond railroads. I did say it would more like a traveling fort - gosh, just what you mentioned. But I'm obviously an ingoramus to be brushed off casually. As far as industry versus railroads, if you want to get picky, the two are symbiotic - widespread industry was made possible by and provided probably the greatest impetus toward building the roads in the first place (which, to think of it, might be another difference between how RR develops in a Roman empire and how it developed in America). One could also bicker about the definition of industry; useful engines and rails aren't possible without a certain level of industrial capability (unless you're telling me, in your ineffably superior knowledge, that all early railroads and engines were entirely handmade in barns and tinker's shops). But I'm apparently too stupid to know the difference. And in the realms of nautical design, engines being large and heavy would suggest to me that one of the first applications of half-decent steam engines might well be in shipping. I was considering (or, maybe I wasn't, being of a disdainfully low level of intelligence and awareness) that the comparatively calm waters and shorter distances of the Mediterranean could well lend itself to swifter adoption than the nations which needed ships to be able to weather and cross the Atlantic Ocean. Especially since sailing ships in Roman times were not nearly as sophisticated as those in the 18th-19th centuries, so the historical comparison does not necessarily hold as blithely as you have stated. What the steamships would have to overcome is not full-sized, square-rigged Napoleonic ships, but classical (or even medieval-era) galleys and sailing ships. I'm not saying I'm just plain right about this (or about any of the above), but that I think there are points worth discussing that might be fun to explore. But, then again, anything I might say should just be brushed aside and discarded as the ravings of a drolling ignoramus. If you want to call this a flame, you can, but I really *really* don't like to be insulted like that. If you want to discuss something, I'm happy to; but "discussion" to me does not include sneering at my casual offerings as if they were completely worthless. I hope that I'm capable of more than that. I just got a mental picture of a trireme style warship with the rowers replced by a deck of boilers cranking two long shafts driving a pair of padlewheels, and perhaps a gundeck with repeating balistae and hydraulic or pnuematic greek fire "flamethrowers". Maybe even ship to ship rockets on deck. Nasty. Something I'd expect from the Melniboneans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy I didn't see anything insulting in Assault's response to Monster. Monster, I'm sorry you felt insulted, but I don't see any of the name calling you accused Assault of. He just disagreed. Keith "Just saying" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy They had the capacity for large architectural works' date=' including concreting. I can't remember any large metal objects the Romans may have constructed (trebuchet parts? ram heads?) but it is well within the capacity to have done so.[/quote'] The large architectural works you are talking about were made of stone. They had good iron working abilities, but compare the size of parts you might need for a catapult binding, or lorica segmenta, to locomotive 884 (the last union pacific steam engine): Weight: 907,980 lbs. or 454 tons Engine & Tender Length: 114 ft. 2-5/8 in. Engine & Tender Tender Type: 14-wheeled Water Capacity: 23,500 gallons Fuel: 6,200 gallons No. 5 oil Gauge of Track: 4 ft. 8-1/2 in. Cylinder: Diameter: 25 in. Stroke: 32 in. Driving Wheel Diameter: 80 in. Boiler: Inside Diameter: 86-3/16 in. Pressure: 300 lbs. Fire Box: Length: 150-1/32 in. Width: 96-3/16 in. Tubes: 2-1/4 in. Diameter: 198 x 19 ft. 0 in. 5-1/2 in. Diameter: 58 Wheel Base: Driving: 22 ft. 0 in. Engine: 50 ft. 11 in. Engine & Tender: 98 ft. 5 in. Weight in Working Order, Pounds: Leading: 102,130 Driving: 266,490 Trailing: 117,720 Engine: 486,340 Tender: 421,550 Evaporating Surfaces, Square Feet: Tubes: 2,204 Flues: 1,578 Fire Box: 442 Circulator & Arch Tubes: Removed, 1945 Total: 4,224 Superheating Surface, Square Feet: 1,400 Grate Area: Removed, 1945 Maximum Tractive Power: 63,800 lbs. Factor of Adhesion: 4.18 I was specifically referring to a foundry capable of casting large (and by large I mean really, really big) iron pieces. That requires the ability to smelt and pour large amounts of iron all at one time. Its that or have a massive sheet of red-hot iron that you pound over a large roll, maybe with triphammers. The issue isn't concept so much as working on a much bigger scale than they had before. To get to that stage is not a big leap, but you still have to develop the techniques (and technologies) to keep that amount of iron molten long enough to do the task, or to heat a massive sheet of iron for bending, and build the corresponding foundry. This they hadn't done before. Its probably only a matter of a century to get there, if you have a steam-bellows in place as maintaining high temperatures, but you still have to jump through several hoops to get to that stage. That's where steam cuts the technology timeline dramatically down - in europe this scale of metal-work didn't occur on a significant scale until a few centuries after the middle-ages came to a close. Chop off 1000-1200 years at the drop of a hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawain Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy The large architectural works you are talking about were made of stone. No, many were made of concrete with stone facades. A specific example is the Pantheon in Rome, for centuries the largest free standing dome in the world and made of concrete. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Pantheon.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome http://www.monolithic.com/thedome/pantheon/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy No' date=' many were made of concrete with stone facades. A specific example is the Pantheon in Rome, for centuries the largest free standing dome in the world and made of concrete. http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Pantheon.html[/quote'] Very good - I stand corrected - and I thank you for refreshing my memory; but this changes the essential point that was being made, how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy Very good - I stand corrected - and I thank you for refreshing my memory; but this changes the essential point that was being made' date=' how?[/quote'] Being able to cast contrete for large architectural works also means being able to make iron foundaries, casting molds and smelting urns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy The large architectural works you are talking about were made of stone. They had good iron working abilities, but compare the size of parts you might need for a catapult binding, or lorica segmenta, to locomotive 884 (the last union pacific steam engine): Weight: 907,980 lbs. or 454 tons Engine & Tender This isn't a good comparison. A better comparison would be with the very first steam engines, not the last. These were much smaller, with many being under 10 tons. This is a much more plausible engineering feat for the Romans to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy Very good - I stand corrected - and I thank you for refreshing my memory; but this changes the essential point that was being made' date=' how?[/quote'] who cares? it's interesting, and corrects a little bit of the misinformation cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGhee Posted October 12, 2006 Report Share Posted October 12, 2006 Re: Steam Power in Fantasy the first working steam engines where used to pump water out of mines, then to provide a way to hall up ore in carts which lead to railways then came steam looms (and cotton is king) (mid 1700's) The Roman's could cast sheets of Iron 3 by 5' which was used on siege towers example the one at Masada (1/2 inch thick or more) having no need for large pours you do not develop large pours. Lord Ghee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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