Firewing vs. Gravitar?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Increased gravitational pull. It's the same simple science of why you can't push a car as fast as you can run and why when you hanglide into a cliff' date=' you don't keep gliding.[/quote']

 

Um, huh? I'm talking about if she's using the "reduced gravity, lifted into air" mode.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Um' date=' huh? I'm talking about if she's using the "reduced gravity, lifted into air" mode.[/quote']My mistake then. I thought you were referring to the AoE TK reference you quoted from LL.

 

However, her power is defined as "Altered Gravity Field" not necessarily "reduced." Theoretically she could be changing/reversing the direction the pull is coming from in that 7" AoE radius. Within the Altered Gravity Field, one might be using flight not like a plane on Earth, but rather like in space.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Out of curiousity' date=' could you explain exactly why her area of effect gravity power is munchkin, while Deadweight's nearly identical power isn't?[/quote']

Gravitar:

1. 60 STR TK (0 END) +40 STR TK (6 END)
   
2. 12" Flight UAA AoE 7" Radius, Ranged, Selective (9 END)
   
3. 54 PD/ED + 10 PD/ED Force Wall (3 END)
   
4. TK 50 STR AoE 11" Radius (0 END)
   
5. Flight 120" NCM
   
6. 8 out of 17 Powers are 0 END, 3 are 1/2 END; she has 90 END
   
7. Lame write-up
   

And what's up with gravity dispelling 20d6 of Technology?

 

Deadweight:

• 50 STR TK, AoE 7" radius, no Range, personal Immunity
  
• Force Field +25 PD/+15 ED for total of 31/25 PD, 21/15 ED
  
• Great write-up
  

 

It is not merely each of the single powers that are munchkiny, but that she has so many of them. The combination of excessiveness. Again, I don't think most GMs would allow her character sheet powers for a PC.

[John T]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

The optional rule is that 2" of Flight or Leaping can be used as an additional +1 point of Strength instead of for movement. That's on 5E p. 238/ 5ER p. 365 under "Movement And Strength". That extra STR only applies for purposes of lifting or pushing' date=' though, so it would be GM interpretation as to whether it would help against a particular use of TK. For Gravitar's AOE TK I could see it applying if she's increasing a person's weight, but if she's just holding them in the air it would be harder to justify how it would help. YMMV, of course. [/quote']I can see Flight applying in the latter situation (hence the term "applicable movement powers" in my earlier post) unless the Flight were Restrainable and specifically Grabbed with the TK. Obviously, Leaping wouldn't apply as long as one had nothing to "leap" from, though I can also see Running applying, again as long as the character still has something to "run" on.

[John T]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

And what's up with gravity dispelling 20d6 of Technology?

The ability to "break" foci that might have too much Defense for her other powers to actually damage, under the logic that no matter how durable, technological objects are still subject to the ravages of extreme gravitational stress. YMMV, natch.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

The ability to "break" foci that might have too much Defense for her other powers to actually damage' date=' under the logic that no matter how durable, technological objects are still subject to the ravages of extreme gravitational stress. YMMV, natch.[/quote']Hmm, I'd think she be able to use her 1d6+1 RKA NND Does BODY Continuous 0 END (Selective Weight Alteration) to do the same thing.

 

Side Note: I think powers with the Continuous advantage should be required to pay END, but that's me.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

She was forced to spend several phases while flashed and unable to see her opponents just cocooned up inside her Force Wall taking recoveries to get back the STUN she was losing to mental attacks.

Point of order:

 

Taking a Recovery (other than the free Post-Segment 12 Recovery) prevents the character from doing *anything* else (except turning off Powers at the beginning of the Phase). 5ER, page 424.

 

So not only would Gravitar not have the Force Wall, her Force Field also drops. Now she's at 24/24 PD/ED with *no* Resistant defences! And at 1/2 DCV. A couple of police snipers waiting for the opportunity could take her to negative Body.

 

I've found that stopping to take a Recovery in combat almost impossible, except for hiding behind cover or when outnumbering your foes.

[Vestnik]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Well then, who would win, Fifth Ed. Eurostar or the Ultimates?

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Point of order:

 

Taking a Recovery (other than the free Post-Segment 12 Recovery) prevents the character from doing *anything* else (except turning off Powers at the beginning of the Phase). 5ER, page 424.

 

So not only would Gravitar not have the Force Wall, her Force Field also drops. Now she's at 24/24 PD/ED with *no* Resistant defences! And at 1/2 DCV. A couple of police snipers waiting for the opportunity could take her to negative Body.

 

I've found that stopping to take a Recovery in combat almost impossible, except for hiding behind cover or when outnumbering your foes.

 

Firewing: higher dex/spd, open with NND (con-stun with average roll), switch to RKA. No more Gravitar.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Looking at the two' date=' I just don't see it. For one thing, it'd still be damn terrifying taking them on, because they don't operate on anything resembling traditional super villain style tactics. They fight like terrorists, complete with hostage situations and making sure the other guy is dead.[/quote']

 

They only vary buy a few damage classes in most cases, but Pantera and White Flame are significantly more scary than Scorpia and Fuermacher (both would eat their replacements for lunch), they had more members (8), and the team's average speed (lots of sixes and sevens) was higher - that last one alone upped their potency well beyond the current teams capabilities. Further, Bora's invisibility-deso and X2 Knockback attack was known to be a real pain in the tail end for a lot of people; you had to find her, catch her when she was solid, and used slickly, the double knockback could be devastating - as was that TK against a non-flying character who didn't have super-strength. Just fly them up and up and drop them. We had one character who put a Cloak and Dagger (the movie) style parachute in his costume because of her alone. Basically, the new Eurostar isn't worthy of the old team's rep.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Well then' date=' who would win, Fifth Ed. Eurostar or the Ultimates?[/quote']

 

If the new Ultimates relied on movement tactics and stayed at range they'd have an edge in a straight up fight; they'd also be devastating if they were able to attack from surprise. On the other hand, if they failed to assess her as a key threat Mentalla could throw a royal wrench into their battle-plans, and fiacho is, theoretically, a very good tactian. Played intelligently Eurostar could hit them where it hurts and turn the tables pretty quick.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

My mistake then. I thought you were referring to the AoE TK reference you quoted from LL.

 

However, her power is defined as "Altered Gravity Field" not necessarily "reduced." Theoretically she could be changing/reversing the direction the pull is coming from in that 7" AoE radius. Within the Altered Gravity Field, one might be using flight not like a plane on Earth, but rather like in space.

 

Replace 'reduced' by 'reversed,' then. In any case, its moot, as my query is about use of *strength*, not flight. Its easy to see how strength could overcome high gravity, not so easy to see how strength would help overcome reversed gravity.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gravitar:

1. 60 STR TK (0 END) +40 STR TK (6 END)
   
2. 12" Flight UAA AoE 7" Radius, Ranged, Selective (9 END)
   
3. 54 PD/ED + 10 PD/ED Force Wall (3 END)
   
4. TK 50 STR AoE 11" Radius (0 END)
   
5. Flight 120" NCM
   
6. 8 out of 17 Powers are 0 END, 3 are 1/2 END; she has 90 END
   
7. Lame write-up
   

And what's up with gravity dispelling 20d6 of Technology?

 

Deadweight:

• 50 STR TK, AoE 7" radius, no Range, personal Immunity
  
• Force Field +25 PD/+15 ED for total of 31/25 PD, 21/15 ED
  
• Great write-up
  

 

It is not merely each of the single powers that are munchkiny, but that she has so many of them. The combination of excessiveness. Again, I don't think most GMs would allow her character sheet powers for a PC.

 

Gravitar: 1000 point megavillain. Deadweight: <200 point Spider-man villain.

 

You see no difference in intended role between the two?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

The ability to "break" foci that might have too much Defense for her other powers to actually damage' date=' under the logic that no matter how durable, technological objects are still subject to the ravages of extreme gravitational stress. YMMV, natch.[/quote']

 

Or, in the case of cybernetic powers, ripping the cybernetics out of the person, as she did to Fiacho. *ouch*

 

Its a little bit off, but is probably intended as a homage to Magneto, and his whole range of "Make technological opposition my bitch" powers.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Well then' date=' who would win, Fifth Ed. Eurostar or the Ultimates?[/quote']

 

Hmm. . .

 

On one hand, the Ultimates have a bunch of area entangles, and much better movement. OTOH, they don't have anywhere near Gravitar's ability to KO Mentalla in one attack, and they kind of lack mental defenses, too.

 

I'd favor Eurostar.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

They only vary buy a few damage classes in most cases' date=' but Pantera and White Flame are significantly more scary than Scorpia and Fuermacher (both would eat their replacements for lunch), they had more members (8), and the team's average speed (lots of sixes and sevens) was higher - that last one alone upped their potency well beyond the current teams capabilities. Further, Bora's invisibility-deso and X2 Knockback attack was known to be a real pain in the tail end for a lot of people; you had to find her, catch her when she was solid, and used slickly, the double knockback could be devastating - as was that TK against a non-flying character who didn't have super-strength. Just fly them up and up and drop them. We had one character who put a Cloak and Dagger (the movie) style parachute in his costume because of her alone. Basically, the new Eurostar isn't worthy of the old team's rep.[/quote']

 

I agree with the Feuermacher/White Flame comparison. OTOH, while Scorpia has less raw combat oomph than Pantera, I'd judge her more useful overall, plus, those NNDs are nasty.

 

As for Bora, yes, she was powerful. She was also, pardon the term, a munchkin. That is, I will admit, a judgement call, but she does have: high dex, high speed, high defense, a powerful attack, fast flight, the area TK, the mega-desolid, and nothing else. She has fewer skills than anybody else on Eurostar, by a longshot. By point of comparison, Gravitar has a far higher number of points spent on skills than Bora. So, I don't object to Bora being gone.

 

That said, however, some further thought on my part does bring to mind a useful parallel for reinventing Eurostar: as the CU equivalent of Dominion, from the Aberrant setting. This would mainly require explaining why they hadn't taken over at least a small European country yet, though.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Continuing on my comment about Bora being an actual munchkin, some further comparisons between her and Gravitar:

 

-Gravitar has points spent on some thing thats are strictly necessary or combat useful, like that 40 STR, or most of those 0 END multipower slots. Bora has, as far as I can see, nothing even slightly superfluous beyond her high COM.

 

-Gravitar has a wide array of attack options available. Bora, OTOH, has all her points focused into just two offensive powers, both rather excessively buff for 4e standards.

 

-Gravitar has high PD/ED, and no exotic defenses. Bora, OTOH, has a Desolid power that also renders her invisible and untouchable to psionics. This leaves only Affects Desolid attacks as a viable option against her, whenever she feels like it. . . and given she has considerable ED, even they won't do a huge amount.

 

-Gravitar has a reasonable array of skills. Not a huge one, but not nonexistent. Bora, outside of her ability to speak, *has no skills at all.* This is the kicker, in my opinion. I know 4e generally had much lower levels of skill purchasing. . . but this is excessive.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Hmm... we are getting more into Eurostar and farther from Gravitar all the time here. Not that there's anything wrong with that subject, but since there seems to be considerable interest and opinion, perhaps a separate Eurostar thread would be fruitful.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

If someone started it, I'd post to it. If only to continue explaining why Bora taking two to the head was a good thing.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Replace 'reduced' by 'reversed' date='' then. In any case, its moot, as my query is about use of *strength*, not flight. Its easy to see how strength could overcome high gravity, not so easy to see how strength would help overcome reversed gravity.[/quote']

Two simplified answers:

1) Game mechanics. The TK is a STR vs. STR power, thus, you can use STR to oppose it.

 

2) Reverse gravity: There has to be something that is creating a gravitational pull. Treat it as an invisible wall/ceiling. That is what their STR is going against.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Gravitar: 1000 point megavillain. Deadweight: <200 point Spider-man villain.

 

You see no difference in intended role between the two?

:sigh: First, points alone don't make someone a munchkin character; it's in the build.

 

Second, at 293 points, Deadweight > 200 points. You can refer to him as a Spider-man villain, but that's your opinion, not mine, so I won't entertain that thought (considering Spiderman probably would be built on more than 350 points).

 

Next, Gravitar is 1,000 points in a starting 350 universe, Deadweight is 293 points in a starting 250 pt universe.

 

Finally (hopefully), "Deadweight is something of a one-trick pony." - Enemies of San Angelo, p. 39. "Gravitar is a master villain-level character intended to oppose entire parties of PCs and have at least an even chance of defeating them." - CKC, p.23.

 

As an aside, you seem to have recently taken the stance of "Gravitar makes sense, all other villains mentioned are munchkins." If you can't see the difference between the two, then please don't continue discussing it with me. I'm bored with this.

[Kirby]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

I always felt something was wrong with the encounter between Eurostar and Gravitar and I believe I've discovered it.

 

Gravitar is said to have pinned most of the group to the ground (AoE TK), held Durak in the air (Flight, UAA) while simultaneously ripping Fiacho's implants out (60 STR TK). This is a Multiple Power Attack (which is legal) yet she's applying it to three different areas instead of at the same target (which is illegal). Was there something in 5ER that changed the rule for Multiple Power Attacks?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

Two simplified answers:

1) Game mechanics. The TK is a STR vs. STR power, thus, you can use STR to oppose it.

 

2) Reverse gravity: There has to be something that is creating a gravitational pull. Treat it as an invisible wall/ceiling. That is what their STR is going against.

 

1) I know about perfectly well. Hell, its the reason she has the UAA Flight. OTOH, 2) is a workable explanation, at least for a supers scenario.

[Vondy]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

I always felt something was wrong with the encounter between Eurostar and Gravitar and I believe I've discovered it.

 

Gravitar is said to have pinned most of the group to the ground (AoE TK), held Durak in the air (Flight, UAA) while simultaneously ripping Fiacho's implants out (60 STR TK). This is a Multiple Power Attack (which is legal) yet she's applying it to three different areas instead of at the same target (which is illegal). Was there something in 5ER that changed the rule for Multiple Power Attacks?

 

It was all done in one action?

 

She could have 1) grabbed everybody (incl. durak), 2) shot durak up as her next action, and 3) torn Fiacho's impants out as her third. Her speed is high enough that it would have still have occured within a span of seconds. I'm not sure how literally the description is supposed to be taken. On the other hand, it still reads like an author's caveat intended to demonstrate how dangerous she is.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Firewing vs. Gravitar?

 

:sigh: First, points alone don't make someone a munchkin character; it's in the build.

 

Second, at 293 points, Deadweight > 200 points. You can refer to him as a Spider-man villain, but that's your opinion, not mine, so I won't entertain that thought (considering Spiderman probably would be built on more than 350 points).

I'll need to check my copy again, but I remembered him being just under 200 points. Doesn't meaningfully effect my point. *shrug*

 

And also, actually, I agree, Spider-man would be more than 350 points. I still see Deadweight being the type of guy to show up as a Spider-man villain. Probably less threatening now than early in the career, though.

 

Next, Gravitar is 1,000 points in a starting 350 universe, Deadweight is 293 points in a starting 250 pt universe.

And? All this does is confirm what I've been saying before: Gravitar and Deadweight are aimed at entirely different setting niches.

 

Finally (hopefully), "Deadweight is something of a one-trick pony." - Enemies of San Angelo, p. 39. "Gravitar is a master villain-level character intended to oppose entire parties of PCs and have at least an even chance of defeating them." - CKC, p.23.

And? See above, this is just saying something I've been saying myself.

 

As an aside, you seem to have recently taken the stance of "Gravitar makes sense, all other villains mentioned are munchkins." If you can't see the difference between the two, then please don't continue discussing it with me. I'm bored with this.

 

No, not really. I think Gravitar makes sense, as do most of the other villains. What I've been arguing is that, by the standards you have been using to judge Gravitar, all the other major villains would be munchkins too.

 

( the only villain to come up on this thread I actually *do* think is a munchkin is Bora )