Automaton Rules Question

[Balabanto]

All right. This one should be very juicy.

 

Automaton powers say that if you pay for the 60 point version, you are effectively immune to mental powers.

 

HOWEVER, if you pay for the machine class of minds, all of these abilities are now useless. Normally, I am all for an ability that makes people immune to mental abilities, as they are huge character screwovers.

 

But truth be told, I can't figure out a way around this. There can't be absolute security on robotic devices once you create a machine class of minds. I've considered adding a special advantage to Mind Control that reads as +1 (The Same Value as NND) that effectively creates an NND Mind Control that only works vs. Ego 0 creatures with Automaton Powers that make them immune to normal mental powers, because otherwise, Machine Class of Minds is a virtually useless ability except for AI's, Robotic creatures with no mental defense (Rare) and The Brawling Balabanto's laptop. (It's sentient! I swear)

 

Thoughts?

[Steve Long]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

This appears to be a request for a discussion, not an actual rules question, so I've moved it.

[zornwil]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

Hi Balabanto.

 

Bear in mind that Change Environment could feasibly be said to affect these 0 EGO devices but more importantly so could skills or even TK with Fine Dexterity, or a combo of those. True, this doesn't help the "machine-mentalist" but the machine-mentalist in our group (yes, we actually have one, even though we don't use the Class of Minds construct per se) did build a variety of abilities to reflect these kinds of abilities. Depending on your world, it may not make sense for a mentalist to affect machines that aren't sentient...

 

But that being said, it also may well make sense, in which case I encourage you to either just rule that machines can't protect themselves against EGO damage (possibly adjusting the value for being an AI) and/or rewrite Class of Minds to your liking.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

One of the rules options for "cyberkinesis" (as the power to control machines is often called in Fifth Edition books) is for Mental Powers that logically should affect machines to work against the target's Intelligence score if it has no Ego. INT is substitued for purposes of calculating the machine's DECV and rolling for effect on the Mental Power. This is a GM permission ability (although a common one that's used in published books) that doesn't require any further Advantages or Adders, and the Mental Power still works as normally vs machines with Ego.

[gojira]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

Yes, basically this should be done by SFX.

 

Where it makes sense, machines should be affected by Mental Powers. Hacking or similar is often built with Mind Control. If you're a 'pooter, and you get hacked, then you do what your new boss says. Gizmo did this to Cyborg in Teen Titans Animated Series, so SFX-wise it's perfect.

 

In addition, HERO System has a large number of "screw over" powers. Any power can be bought NND, or AVLD, and you are screwed if you don't have the defense.

 

Imagine that you get all the Mental Defense, NND, XYZ, and everything else you can think of. Then you face a Weather Contoller with the power ACID RAIN: NND Body Drain: Rust, Only Vs Machines. The defense is being made of plastic. Oops.

 

There's nothing you can do if a GM wants to screw you over. He picks a NND with a defense you don't have ("Being Organic") and you're done.

 

Talk to your GM about how often these "screw over" powers should come into effect. If you and your GM can't see eye-to-eye, there's nothing in the rules that will help. It's time to find another group.

[Robyn]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

Yes' date=' basically this should be done by SFX.[/quote']

 

There's something that shouldn't be handled with mechanics alone?

 

In addition' date=' HERO System has a large number of "screw over" powers. Any power can be bought NND, or AVLD, and you are screwed if you don't have the defense.[/quote']

 

Oh, so we can build it with mechanics. Whew.

 

Where it makes sense' date=' machines should be affected by Mental Powers.[/quote']

 

But common sense does enter the equation?

 

Hacking or similar is often built with Mind Control. If you're a 'pooter' date=' and you get hacked, then you do what your new boss says. Gizmo did this to Cyborg in Teen Titans Animated Series, so SFX-wise it's perfect.[/quote']

 

SFX as well, apparently

[ghost-angel]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

It makes you immune to Mental, NND and AVLD Attacks that do not have Does Body on them.

 

You haven't screwed over the mentalist. The robot still has 0 EGO and all the other, non damaging, Mental Powers work just fine.

 

The 60 Point Automaton Power only affects STUN, i.e. Attack Powers. Not Mental Effects Powers.

 

Hardly screwed over.

 

There is a difference between 0 EGO and No EGO.

[zornwil]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

It makes you immune to Mental, NND and AVLD Attacks that do not have Does Body on them.

 

You haven't screwed over the mentalist. The robot still has 0 EGO and all the other, non damaging, Mental Powers work just fine.

 

The 60 Point Automaton Power only affects STUN, i.e. Attack Powers. Not Mental Effects Powers.

 

Hardly screwed over.

 

There is a difference between 0 EGO and No EGO.

No, GA, the rule states "First, since an automoton isn't really a sentient, living being, it automatically has 0 EGO and is immune to all Mental Powers.", 5ER, page 457.

[secretID]

Re: Automaton Rules Question

 

First, a correction that others have touched on: the 60-point no-stun option for autos is unrelated to the immunity to mental powers, which costs nothing - it's the default status of an auto.

 

Your concern/complaint seems to be that mental powers for the machine class of minds doesn't affect autos, so that they are "useless." My understanding is that machine class mental powers are for use againist AIs, which do have egos. They may also be effective against normal computers - I'm not looking at the book now.

 

Mind control (for example) of an AI is pretty useful - I can imagine campaigns in which it would be far more useful than MC of humans, b/c an AI might be controlling a major computer network, a major base or starship, etc.

 

You could get around this limitation with NND (as others have said) or (I think) with a programming skill as a power to allow for reprogramming at range - autos have programs even if they don't have AIs.