Suffer, Kate!

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

I take your point, although I might turn it around and suggest that more powers ought to have a panic/morale element built in either as a construct or as a part of the rules.

 

That we do not do this is largely a matter of practicality: it would slow down play if we did it all the time.

 

Independent Presence Attack, AOE Megascale (Cosmic), Conditional Power (dramatic sense), Limited Power (common sense)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Independent Presence Attack, AOE Megascale (Cosmic), Conditional Power (dramatic sense), Limited Power (common sense)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What?

 

What?

 

What?

 

I'll tell you what, sunshine, step outside....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

I take your point, although I might turn it around and suggest that more powers ought to have a panic/morale element built in either as a construct or as a part of the rules.

 

That we do not do this is largely a matter of practicality: it would slow down play if we did it all the time.

 

The reason I added it in though was not just from a 'modelling an effect' POV (although that was obviously a consideration), but to add some combat utility to what would otherwise be a power that was pretty cool, but really not that useful.

 

That would suggest to me that the cost of the base ability ought to be reduced, rather than that some small point cost ability with greater effect should be added in. Would you allow the Panic Effect ability you designed to be purchased by itself (perhaps with different limitations, or no limitations) to represent a character inducing a panic attack or some similar ability? In other words, do you consider that ability too effective for its cost, making up for Suffocation being too expensive for its cost?

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

I'll tell you what' date=' sunshine, step outside....[/quote']

 

Oh, no. The last time I fell for that one, I fell down through the lower atmosphere.

 

Never go to a party that's in an airborne house, I always say.

 

Seriously, now . . . is "for dramatic effect" something that HERO Gamemasters never do? Considering how often the book reminds us of "dramatic sense", you'd almost think it was important or something. Still, if you really are nervous about doing anything that there isn't a mechanic for, good news: Now there is

 

It may not be (numerically) quantifiable, but it's a legitimate option.

 

I wonder if I should be building it as "Charges, recovers each session", though, to reflect that it doesn't always happen. This might be a more acceptable way than Activation Roll, anyway

[Morgan Blacke]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

OK - here's how I see the situation:

 

The Suffocation Power wants to be able to model the effects of lack of oxygen under the Environmental Hazards section rules; this requires:

a) That the character affected lose END until they remove themselves from the situation, and;

 

that once the affected character's END reaches 0, they then lose Stun until they escape, and;

 

c) that once the affected character's Stun reaches a certain point, they start losing Body until they die or remove themselves from the situation.

 

d) Further, no recoveries can be taken while this occurs, even PS12's.

 

Items a) and above can be achieved via a small Continuous END Drain, DW: if target has appropriate LS - once END reaches 0, then Stun begins to be burned (per burning Stun for End)

 

Item c) is a small linked Continuous Body Drain OW: once Stun reaches 0, DW: if target has appropriate LS.

 

The biggest problem is Item d) - preventing the recoveries and the PS12. There are rules for when Recoveries become limited and PS12's cannot be taken - For example, when a character reaches a significant negative Stun. This can be achieved via powers with a medium (to large) linked Stun Drain (DW: if Target has appropriate LS, Only to affect position on the Recovery Chart, Full Recovery of Lost Stun when removed from environment.)

 

At first, this may not be sufficient to prevent PS12's, but as the character starts to lose Stun, the affects will begin to accumulate FAST and put them in the proper category.

 

Characters with Power Defense will be resistant to this 3-stage attack, but as it represents some form of modification of the environment around them, then Power Defense seems to be the defense that one would use for this type of attack (Power Defense wouldn't work v. the Naturally Occurring Environmental Effect as it's a natural manifestation, not a modification of existing natural manifestations)

 

Not sure of the point costs or where it would fit (don't have the time to mash out a power example atm), or even what context the original poster was looking to use this power in. Just thought that I'd present my thoughts on how to model it using existing rules structures.

 

Cheers,

 

Morgan the Blacke

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

That would suggest to me that the cost of the base ability ought to be reduced' date=' rather than that some small point cost ability with greater effect should be added in. Would you allow the Panic Effect ability you designed to be purchased by itself (perhaps with different limitations, or no limitations) to represent a character inducing a panic attack or some similar ability? In other words, do you consider that ability too effective for its cost, making up for Suffocation being too expensive for its cost?[/quote']

 

Well it does not seem to be much more effective than the 'slipping over on ice' power, so I proabbly would allow it on that basis, but I'd have to see how effective it is in combat to really make my mind up. Given that it is a panic reaction I'd probably allow a PRE roll if the defender had higher PRE than EGO.

 

OTOH I think change environment needs better definition and clearer limits on what it can do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Good summary snipped for space.

 

Items a) and above can be achieved via a small Continuous END Drain' date=' DW: if target has appropriate LS - once END reaches 0, then Stun begins to be burned (per burning Stun for End)[/quote']

 

Except that, IIRC, the official rule is that END drains below 0 END just make END negative. They don't cause Stun damage. The character only burns Stun if he uses it for some other purpose. As well, 1 stun/1 END isn't the rate at which STUN is burned for END - it's 1d6/2 END used again IIRC.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

OK let me just clarify the base problem I am having here.

 

The game mechanics for suffocation require that all recoveries stop. There is no way to accomplish that in game except with some sort of transform or some enormous REC drain unless you allow Change Environment to do it, which is clearly (to my mind) having an effect WAY beyond the 'minor' that the power allows.

 

The END/STUN/BODY damage I can manage somehow: one point, even if you have to build it with quintuple penetrating continuous uncontrolled NNDs (yes, I know) is not going to be THAT expensive.

 

So the problem is that the underlying game mechanics cannot realistically be built with the mechanics we use to build characters whish is a shame.

 

Now this is not in any way meant to be a criticism of the games authors: Hero has evolved over time and these were simply not considerations when the system first appeared (in fact we probably did not have suffocation rules then - I can't remember, but it was a MUCH smaller book). Hopefully in future editions we will have an eye to creating an absolutely consistent environment on a meta game level. That would be nice, but a lot of work.

 

Another example of this, to my mind, is gravity. You will dountless be able to think of other examples. You really struggle to create an anti-gravity beam NOT because you can't get an opposing player up to the requisite speed of 30" per segment if you chuck enough points at it but because the mechanics for taking damage from a fall and from a power are different EVEN if they simulate the same effect. Different underlying mechanics, again.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

The game mechanics for suffocation require that all recoveries stop. There is no way to accomplish that in game except with some sort of transform or some enormous REC drain unless you allow Change Environment to do it' date=' which is clearly (to my mind) having an effect WAY beyond the 'minor' that the power allows.[/quote']

 

Well, I think I would allow the CE to provide that stopping of recoveries as it is an environmental change that is doing it and there should be obvious (possibly easy ways) to circumvent it.

 

Drowning is environmental damage and the only effect that stops recoveries in an absolute sense and so I would have to think that changing the environment should be capable of causing that kind of effect....

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Well, I think I would allow the CE to provide that stopping of recoveries as it is an environmental change that is doing it and there should be obvious (possibly easy ways) to circumvent it.

 

Drowning is environmental damage and the only effect that stops recoveries in an absolute sense and so I would have to think that changing the environment should be capable of causing that kind of effect....

 

Doc

 

Can't focus on the use of the word 'Environment'. We have to look at what the power DOES. If it causes some sort of negative effect that you are not paying for them there are problems. Look at the examples in the book; increased pressure that builds and then causes damage when it stops: built with the damage adders, and to be fair you can probably do that for the END/STUN/BODY loss. What there is simply no provision for in CE is stopping all recoveries, in effect, supressing recoveries to 0. That is a pretty major effect that would costa lot to simulate using other powers, and I don't think that CE should be able to hand it out for free.

 

I mean, by the same logic any hostile environment could be used. I create a space where there is not any light (or too much) or where the temperature is so high people combust, or so low they freeze solid...

 

The problem to my mind is that the effect seems too powerful for change environment, and has a clear combat effect that cannot be simulated with the effects that CE allows. The sfx of CE cannot impute powers you do not pay for.

 

The other difficulty with the effect is that it is absolute in that it reduces ANY REC value to 0, in effect. This is something that there is not a game mechanic for (well a huge supress capable of reducing and REC value in a campaign to 0, perhaps. Good luck with that).

 

To me it is like saying: I've got megawatt laser beams, OF COURSE they can punch a hole in a wall or an enemy - I don't need to buy it as a RKA, it is covered by the sfx.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

To me it is like saying: I've got megawatt laser beams, OF COURSE they can punch a hole in a wall or an enemy - I don't need to buy it as a RKA, it is covered by the sfx.

 

How many megawatts in those lasers?

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

How many megawatts in those lasers?

 

 

Doc

 

Lots. Easily enough to burn holes in practically anything.

 

 

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

So the problem is that the underlying game mechanics cannot realistically be built with the mechanics we use to build characters whish is a shame.

 

Now this is not in any way meant to be a criticism of the games authors: Hero has evolved over time and these were simply not considerations when the system first appeared (in fact we probably did not have suffocation rules then - I can't remember, but it was a MUCH smaller book). Hopefully in future editions we will have an eye to creating an absolutely consistent environment on a meta game level. That would be nice, but a lot of work.

 

Also, consider that the mechanics we use to build characters (or a smaller set thereof) might have been used to build some - but not all - of the underlying game mechanics. That is, the game might have been built only partway through the hidden rules, and then the rest of it was done with the building blocks that had been created.

 

I do have a (mostly) working theory for the hidden rules, but I've been holding back on posting it until I could finish reading Chapter 1

 

If you're interested in the parts that are working, PM me.

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Except that' date=' IIRC, the official rule is that END drains below 0 END just make END negative. They don't cause Stun damage. The character only burns Stun if he uses it for some other purpose. As well, 1 stun/1 END isn't the rate at which STUN is burned for END - it's 1d6/2 END used again IIRC.[/quote']

 

Separate Drains could be used for Stun and Body; each one only kicks in when the previous characteristic has been reduced to zero. The trick is those Drains; what Power Defense (SFX) do you know that would prevent from suffocating with no air to breathe?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Back to the original question... how to do suffocation via ...

 

1) I haven't read every post... maybe someone already said this. If so, sorry.

 

2) Do we agree that points are used to define character abilities that differ from "normal" in most cases, and are not intended to be used to model every aspect of the imaginary environment? (This could be contentious, but I hold it to be true.)

 

3) Does it follow that while environmental effects are put in terms that interact with point defined characters (i.e. a natural lightning bolt can be assigned diced damage if it strikes a character/object) those environmental effects are "built" with their own rules and own effects that are "GM controlled."

 

4) Do we assume that the power "Change Environment" allows a character to create an environmental effect in the imaginary space that wasn't there before... BUT DOES NOT IMPLY CONTROL OVER HOW THAT EFFECT PLAYS OUT? (Again, contentious, but I'd say yes.)

 

 

If all these are the case (and I think this is the default in Hero, though I know some will disagree) then the power "Change Environment - Create Vacuum" is all that is needed. The player just "makes a vacuum" happen... then the GM gets control of this new environmental factor (as all environmental factors are under GM control unless players are give director stance) and rules what happens in a "makes sense" kind of way just like the GM rules on every other environmental effect.

 

 

See... again it all comes down to "who has control to rule how it plays out?" Design intent is crucial.

 

IMO... design intent around Change Environment is that the player introduces an element, but doesn't control how it plays out. They paid points only to have the ability to say "There is a storm!" or "There is a vacuum!" but not to say exactly what effect that storm or vacuum has. (This is also reflected in how Change Enviro is relatively cheap compared to most other powers.)

 

Now... if what the player REALLY wants is an EFFECT that is controlled by them... i.e. "I want a blast of both physical and electrical damage that is a storm in SFX." Then they buy a damaging power and assign the SFX.

 

"I want to create a storm." vs. "I want an attack that is based on storm like SFX." These are two very different things in Hero.

 

So... to the vacuum question... are we saying "I want to create a vacuum."?? Or are we saying, "I want to create an attack that simulates the effect of a vacuum on a target." For the first, buy Change Environment... for the second buy a normal or killing attack with all kinds of mods and lims to get the effect you want.

 

PS: This is not to say that a player who wants the attack PLUS the environmental change can't have both... in fact that would be a completist way to build this. An attack with a linked CE or some such. Just that there is a clear differentiation between the damage and effect the player controls... and the environmental effect that the GM controls.

 

PPS: This also starts to hint at how to better adjudicate other weird powers like shapeshift et al. Because what those powers are doing is to create an environmental factor (I have a new shape!) but it is then left to the GM to adjudicate a "Makes sense" ruling on the EFFECT of that new environmental factor (in this case the new shape.)

 

Hmmmmm... I think this is very key to some core Hero interpretation rulings that we are digging at.

 

 

PPPS: If what this thread is trying to do is to define a "suffocation like attack" no matter if it is vacuum or strangulation or drowing or whatever... then I agree the big question comes down to "how does one player control the removal of the Recovery of their target." Agains, control over the effect of "can't recover" is the big question.

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Lots. Easily enough to burn holes in practically anything.

 

 

 

Take it as Tunneling, then. You make holes in something, at a distance, and don't deal any damage

[zornwil]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Back to the original question... how to do suffocation via ...

 

1) I haven't read every post... maybe someone already said this. If so, sorry.

 

2) Do we agree that points are used to define character abilities that differ from "normal" in most cases, and are not intended to be used to model every aspect of the imaginary environment? (This could be contentious, but I hold it to be true.)

 

3) Does it follow that while environmental effects are put in terms that interact with point defined characters (i.e. a natural lightning bolt can be assigned diced damage if it strikes a character/object) those environmental effects are "built" with their own rules and own effects that are "GM controlled."

 

4) Do we assume that the power "Change Environment" allows a character to create an environmental effect in the imaginary space that wasn't there before... BUT DOES NOT IMPLY CONTROL OVER HOW THAT EFFECT PLAYS OUT? (Again, contentious, but I'd say yes.)

 

 

If all these are the case (and I think this is the default in Hero, though I know some will disagree) then the power "Change Environment - Create Vacuum" is all that is needed. The player just "makes a vacuum" happen... then the GM gets control of this new environmental factor (as all environmental factors are under GM control unless players are give director stance) and rules what happens in a "makes sense" kind of way just like the GM rules on every other environmental effect.

 

 

See... again it all comes down to "who has control to rule how it plays out?" Design intent is crucial.

 

IMO... design intent around Change Environment is that the player introduces an element, but doesn't control how it plays out. They paid points only to have the ability to say "There is a storm!" or "There is a vacuum!" but not to say exactly what effect that storm or vacuum has. (This is also reflected in how Change Enviro is relatively cheap compared to most other powers.)

 

Now... if what the player REALLY wants is an EFFECT that is controlled by them... i.e. "I want a blast of both physical and electrical damage that is a storm in SFX." Then they buy a damaging power and assign the SFX.

 

"I want to create a storm." vs. "I want an attack that is based on storm like SFX." These are two very different things in Hero.

 

So... to the vacuum question... are we saying "I want to create a vacuum."?? Or are we saying, "I want to create an attack that simulates the effect of a vacuum on a target." For the first, buy Change Environment... for the second buy a normal or killing attack with all kinds of mods and lims to get the effect you want.

 

PS: This is not to say that a player who wants the attack PLUS the environmental change can't have both... in fact that would be a completist way to build this. An attack with a linked CE or some such. Just that there is a clear differentiation between the damage and effect the player controls... and the environmental effect that the GM controls.

 

PPS: This also starts to hint at how to better adjudicate other weird powers like shapeshift et al. Because what those powers are doing is to create an environmental factor (I have a new shape!) but it is then left to the GM to adjudicate a "Makes sense" ruling on the EFFECT of that new environmental factor (in this case the new shape.)

 

Hmmmmm... I think this is very key to some core Hero interpretation rulings that we are digging at.

 

 

PPPS: If what this thread is trying to do is to define a "suffocation like attack" no matter if it is vacuum or strangulation or drowing or whatever... then I agree the big question comes down to "how does one player control the removal of the Recovery of their target." Agains, control over the effect of "can't recover" is the big question.

Yes, I like this approach/explanation, it makes a lot of sense. And would add that there's also a degree of player control in Transform and CE and perhaps others in that you can buy particular effects for particular additional costs (e.g., CE allows you to buy specific effects in addition (which it also attempts to balance), and Transform you can purchase effects for putting on more points).

 

It calls into clarity that an important analytical element for each power (loosely termed, including talents/etc.) is the detail of control/control interaction.

 

It also indicates that really one of the most powerful and simple things that could/should be made explicit is this control question in the rulebook. It would clarify at least the owner of SFX definitions/interactions for things like CE and SS.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

This reminds me of one thing that's always annoyed me.... how difficult it is to make the enviromental effects we see listed in the back section.

 

Suffication - The END/STUN/BOD damage that is taken on the target's turn. Almost all effects are based on the users turns. The damage method is more expensive the it should be when bought accurately. The recovery problem that features dropping the recovery to zero rather than reducing it by a particular amount.

 

Fire - Building a fire is extreamly expensive even when build to low powers... there is no listed method that works with how it spreads.

 

Gravity - Requires a convolution of abilities to even get close to simulating it.

 

Biological contaminants get massively expensive. Anybody else ever tried to build the common cold?

 

The only reason why temperature changes work anywhere near reasonably is they are directly inserted into the change enviroment.

 

Foci repressenting physical objects are have staticstics differented that the item itself. My I-Beam of Doom for some reason has no BODY despite the fact that the micelaneous steel I-beam you pick up anywhere else does.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

The only reason why temperature changes work anywhere near reasonably is they are directly inserted into the change enviroment.

 

I'd like to see "stops air supply" as an adder for each of Force Wall (where the target could not breathe as long as englobed), Entangle (must break entangle to breathe again) and Change Environment. The only theory I've seen that comes even close to costing this out rationally is based on a Standard Effect suppress which would take away the character's "LS: Breathe in Oxygen-rich atmosphere" power, but of course that's an illegal construct at the outset.

[Robyn]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

Biological contaminants get massively expensive. Anybody else ever tried to build the common cold?

 

If you think that was bad, try building drugs

[Lucius]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

The only theory I've seen that comes even close to costing this out rationally is based on a Standard Effect suppress which would take away the character's "LS: Breathe in Oxygen-rich atmosphere" power' date=' but of course that's an illegal construct at the outset.[/quote']

 

Is it? The exact wording was that what stops you from Draining, Suppressing etc. innate Life Support is "common sense and dramatic sense."

 

I guess if you have no sense, it's legal...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary looks under Enhanced Senses for Common and Dramatic Sense...

[Wolfgar]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

If you think that was bad' date=' try building drugs [/quote']

 

And at the same time, my girlfriend is considered more of a Disadvatage than my heroin addiction. Odd.

 

[Lucius]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

And at the same time, my girlfriend is considered more of a Disadvatage than my heroin addiction. Odd.

 

 

I've had women like that....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that some have been almost as hard to get rid of as an addiction too....

[Wolfgar]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

I take your point, although I might turn it around and suggest that more powers ought to have a panic/morale element built in either as a construct or as a part of the rules.

 

That we do not do this is largely a matter of practicality: it would slow down play if we did it all the time.

 

Well, that and the underlying rule that we are playing Heroes, or folks of similar mettle. It would be perfectly realistic to have the first reaction to almost all Attack powers be screaming, running away, panicking, fainting, or losing bladder control, but I don't think that would seem very heroic at all.

 

Plus, it's one thing to die; it's quite another to die looking like a coward.

[Wolfgar]

Re: Suffer, Kate!

 

I've had women like that....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that some have been almost as hard to get rid of as an addiction too....

 

Can't live with them, can't buy them off.