The Fastball Special ^_^

[Kid Chaos]

Go ahead and start a thread on the FBS. Most folks, I think would count it as a maneuver rather than a power, but a power to increase the damage and accuracy beyond the normal combat rules would be a cool Strength Trick.

 

Well here goes then, how would you buy or build it.

 

I mentioned my version using UMA 4th in the USPD thread but I haven't gotten around to converting that to a 5th Edition version yet.

 

I'll offer one slightly broken and semi humorous way to do it as well for right now.

 

I was just thinking how to buy it

 

 

The Brick half would buy it like this...

 

Fastball Special Toss 8D6 EB (reduced by range, limited range "only as fas as he can toss the focus", focus "martial artist")

 

the Martial Artist would buy something like

 

Fast Ball Special Missle 4D6 AID (only to Bricks Fast Ball Special Toss)

 

 

That's without looking at my book mind you and not at all a serious attempt at building it as a power.

[Killer Shrike]

BTW, there are already rules for doing a Fast Ball Special in Champions IIRC

[Kid Chaos]

I've not seen them in the new edition. If you have a page number or even general section I would appreciate it.

 

I recall seeing it mentioned about the way I built it as a move by sort of maneuver.

[Killer Shrike]

Champions 154 with a sidebar entry running from 153-157

[Kid Chaos]

Ahhhh, don't own Champions and had no intention of buying it. Still won't as I would probably prefer my interpretation anyway.

[dbcowboy]

Don't own the new Champions, in the past we treated this as a move by, simply requiring Brick to hit target hex with throw, then the duo to succeed in a coordination roll (teamwork skill now) before Martial Artist could make his move by attack. Martial Artist's speed was the distance thrown - distance traveled when passed target.

 

If two characters wanted to specialize in this type of attack, they would have purchased skill levels with any of the following: coordination, move by, range skill levels, throwing as appropriate for the character's role in the attack.

 

We liked the approach because we felt it more accurately accounted for things like range to target, range thrown and, based on those 2, the velocity the MA would have as they passed the target. Maybe more dice rolling than some would like.

[Kristopher]

The velocity shouldn't be based on the distance thrown. The thrown character doesn't accelerate after being thrown ( unless he has flight, in which case why bother with the throw). All the acceleration for a thrown character takes place at the moment of the throw.

[levi]

Originally posted by Kristopher

The velocity shouldn't be based on the distance thrown. The thrown character doesn't accelerate after being thrown ( unless he has flight, in which case why bother with the throw). All the acceleration for a thrown character takes place at the moment of the throw.

 

It seems that the velocity calculation for damage caused should be taken from whatever distance was remaining upon reaching the target. Example: Bulging Muscle Guy throws Hairball Martial Artist at Magnet Master.

 

BMG can throw HMA 25" and MM is 16" away...so the remaining velocity is 9" so the HMA gets 9" velocity (or +3DCs) for damage on the Move Through.

 

If MM were 4" away, then HMA would get 21" velocity (or +7DCs) for damage on the Move Through.

 

This seems to follow the logic of the Knockback damage rules as well.

 

Also remember that your velocity cannot equal more than 5" per Inch travelled. If BMG could throw HMA 100" and MM was 10" away, you could still only generate 50" velocity, despite having 90" distance remaining, due to Hero Game Mechanics.

 

The penalty for throwing the HMA at the MM should be based completely on the original velocity generated (25" or -5 OCV for a Move Through). This could be compensated for by Levels in Fastball Special or any other appropriate combat skill levels. The justification for this point of view is in the loss of accuracy for the sake of power when throwing in the real world.

[dbcowboy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

The velocity shouldn't be based on the distance thrown. The thrown character doesn't accelerate after being thrown ( unless he has flight, in which case why bother with the throw). All the acceleration for a thrown character takes place at the moment of the throw.

 

Yes, I agree with the majority of that. The MA receives a huge acceleration initially (the throw) then begins to slow down (negative acceleration) the farther he travels until eventually his speed reaches 0 (at target hex) and he lands. Therefore his velocity at the point he passes the target is (total distance thrown) - (distance currently traveled).

 

He's an example:

A Sentinel robot is 10 hexes from Colossus and Wolverine when they begin their Fast-Ball Special (make their coordination roll). Colossus targets a hex 20" past the Sentinel, makes his attack role to hit the hex with Wolverine, succeeds, and launches Wolverine into the air.

 

Wolverine's going to move 20" this phase so his initial velocity is 20". Now, the only reason he stops at 20" is because his velocity at that point is 0" (he lands), so we decided he'd lose 1" of velocity for every hex he flys through the air.

 

Wolvie passes the Sentinel after 10". His velocity at this point is 10" (20"-10"= 10") so that's the speed he uses to calculate dmg from the move by (he of course would use it to increase the dmg of his HKA).

 

Whether or not his move by attack hits, Wolverine continues to fly through the air the remaining 10" to the target hex where he uses his Breakfall to roll and come up into a fighting stance, ready for more.

 

Anyway, that's just the approach we took. Alternatively you could let them use the full distance thrown as their velocity for the dmg, that might be more in line with the way other movement works. It just seemed to us that the guy that gets tossed has little if any control over hit movement so not getting the entire move for the dmg seemed like a decent idea.

[dbcowboy]

Originally posted by levi

It seems that the velocity calculation for damage caused should be taken from whatever distance was remaining upon reaching the target. Example: Bulging Muscle Guy throws Hairball Martial Artist at Magnet Master.

okay, i like levi's example better than mine, his characters are much more interesting

 

This seems to follow the logic of the Knockback damage rules as well.

Yep, based our approach off of it.

 

Also remember that your velocity cannot equal more than 5" per Inch travelled. If BMG could throw HMA 100" and MM was 10" away, you could still only generate 50" velocity, despite having 90" distance remaining, due to Hero Game Mechanics.

Gotta admit, I don't think we ever took that into consideration. We just figured that all the acceleration for throwing/knockback came at one instant. After that, the source was no longer touching the missile and could not longer supply additional acceleration. I know I remember getting the snot knocked out of my character by taking an obscene amount of knockback dmg after flying only 2 of the total hexes into a reinforced wall.

 

The penalty for throwing the HMA at the MM should be based completely on the original velocity generated (25" or -5 OCV for a Move Through). This could be compensated for by Levels in Fastball Special or any other appropriate combat skill levels. The justification for this point of view is in the loss of accuracy for the sake of power when throwing in the real world.

hmmmm, that's not a bad idea. We just dinged the brick with range penalties for hitting the hex (well, and the -4 for the unbalanced/nonaerodynamic MA) but the truth is, he can't just toss the MA to the hex any way he wants. He has to do it in such a way that the MA will pass close to the enemy the MA's gonna try to hit. No high, lazy spirals - it's got to be dead on.

[Vondy]

Sounds like a move-by or through with the bricks throwing distance used to extrapolate the velocity.

[Kid Chaos]

Right, which is more or less how it looks like most of us developed it as a maneuver.

 

Now how about simulating it as a power?

[levi]

Personally, I don't see a reason to use a Power when a maneuver exists, but just for the sake of boredom...lol

 

I don't have my FRED handy, but something along the lines of...

STR at Range (up to 75 STR) (+1/2) 112 Active Points OAF Throwable Friendly Character (-1), One Recoverable Charge (-3??) Cost = 28 points

...should do the trick.

[Kristopher]

Actually, most of the reason a projectile (on Earth or in a similar environment) lands is because it falls, not because it slows down. FYI.

[Kid Chaos]

Originally posted by levi

Personally, I don't see a reason to use a Power when a maneuver exists, but just for the sake of boredom...lol

 

I don't have my FRED handy, but something along the lines of...

STR at Range (up to 75 STR) (+1/2) 112 Active Points OAF Throwable Friendly Character (-1), One Recoverable Charge (-3??) Cost = 28 points

...should do the trick.

 

This came From Bob Greenwood saying he wanted to do super throwing powers/tricks. I asked if he thought of trying a Fastball Special power as opposed to a maneuver. He then challenged me to start a thread on it.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by dbcowboy

Don't own the new Champions, in the past we treated this as a move by, simply requiring Brick to hit target hex with throw, then the duo to succeed in a coordination roll (teamwork skill now) before Martial Artist could make his move by attack. Martial Artist's speed was the distance thrown - distance traveled when passed target.

 

If two characters wanted to specialize in this type of attack, they would have purchased skill levels with any of the following: coordination, move by, range skill levels, throwing as appropriate for the character's role in the attack.

 

We liked the approach because we felt it more accurately accounted for things like range to target, range thrown and, based on those 2, the velocity the MA would have as they passed the target. Maybe more dice rolling than some would like.

 

This is exactly how I've handled it in my games. Of course, velocity can give you some obnoxious amounts of damage if you have the right combination. Say... a brick who throws a shrinker, who then grows to full size in mid-flight, thus adding growth-velocity bonus dice to the overall damage. I have one villian team that uses this tactic. Just on a standing throw, this FBS can do 21d6 if done as a Move-By, or 32d6 if done as a Move Through! The shrinker in question has 75% DR only vs collateral damage when changing size (she needs it!)

[dbcowboy]

You know that particular combo never came up, for some reason no one created a shrinking character.

 

On a similar vein however, three of us ran a danger room scenario while the GM and another player were making up a new character. 3 teams of 2.

 

- Player 1's MA jumps on speedster brick's back and takes a half phase delay.

 

- one or two other characters move

 

- Player 1's speedster brick does a full move (i think it was a full, been a long time), his two characters make coordination rolls and succeed. His MA immediately uses his delay to superleap (half move) a move by on Player 2's massive brick, knocking him well into the reinforced danger room wall. We allowed him to use the total of the speedster brick's move + his superleap for velocity.

 

Something totally out of the blue none of us had thought of before. You know the old saying: The first time it happens it's a trick. Every time after that, it's a technique.

[levi]

Along those lines, we had a situation where a brick threw a guy who then would turn on his density increase! I was unsure how the change in density should affect the velocity of the character being thrown, but the GM ruled that no velocity was lost (the throwing distance / velocity was determined at the time of the throw based on the character's pre-DI weight).

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by levi

Along those lines, we had a situation where a brick threw a guy who then would turn on his density increase! I was unsure how the change in density should affect the velocity of the character being thrown, but the GM ruled that no velocity was lost (the throwing distance / velocity was determined at the time of the throw based on the character's pre-DI weight).

 

.5mass * velocity^2 = Kinetic Energy

v^2 = KE/.5m

v = the square root of (KE/.5m)

 

Since KE is constant, increasing the mass decreases the velocity. I *think* that doubling the mass results in the velocity being divided by the square root of 2. (It's been a long time...I know where to check though, so I'll come back and correct this if that's wrong.)

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

It's gonna be rough, telling the guy at the far end of a bullet's range that he's dead even though the bullet had almost no velocity left because it was almost at the end of its flight path.

 

Objects thrown stop because they fall, not because they run out of velocity. Throw a hardball as high as you can straight up into the air, then catch it in your hand; what's that stinging? Could it be *gasp* velocity? What shatters baseball bats, even though the pitch is only 15' away from hitting the ground? Perhaps it's velocity.

 

The Fastball Special (tm Mssrs. Logan and Rasputin) is a maneuver. Brick picks up Martial Artist, and throws him at the hex occupied by Villan -- DCV 3, modified by Range, since the MArtist is going to be a 10-15 STR oomph for picking up, the Brick should have plenty of extra strength to do a standing throw with. MArtist 'holds/coordinates action', and as he's passing into/through the hex of the Villan, he performs a move-by attack, as appropriate for his character.

 

So why should any brick/immune-to-broken-bones-martial-artist hero combo learn to do this? Because this may be the ultimate in enhancing your martial artist's movement without turning him into a speedster. Presuming Colossus has an 80 Strength and lifting Wolverine requires a 15 Strength, that's an extra 65 Strength -- 26" 'movement' standing, or a whopping 52" with a running throw. (Subtract a few for 'unbalanced, unaerodynamic, but even 45" is nasty.) Wolverine's strong (25 STR, I estimate), but 26" is going to add on 5 DCs, while 45" adds on 9 DCs, with Logan's halved strength giving +2½ DCs as well. Thus, instead of Logan hitting with 5 DCs, he's hitting with 7½ to 11½ DCs -- added to his claw HKA and martial abilities, well, that's just uglified.

 

And remember, the Martial Artist doesn't have to travel ALL of the distance; he will, most likely, hit ground only a few hexes beyond the target. BUT as long as the Brick uses his full strength, the MA is going to get the 'full movement velocity' out of him...

[Crimson Arrow]

Wyrm Ouroboros's reasoning seems sound to me. The velocity turns into downwards velocity. However, there must be some loss, as presumably the force of the vertical movement coming from the throw, or the charge behind the bullet will eventually diminish due to air resistance, being replaced (in part only?) by velocity due to gravity. WO seems to have a lot more scientific knowledge than I do, so no doubt he can clarify this.

 

The problem with the X-Men example is that Wolverine couldn't use his Martial Arts in mid-air (wuxia notwithstanding). He either uses his HA from his super-tough skeleton, or his claws. The former is OK. As to the claws, he could do no more than double the DCs of his attack.

 

However, that does make sense, if we assume his HKA is, say, 2d6, double AP. One extra DC requires 10 points of STR and so Wolverine (on 25 STR) can only take the attack up to 2 1/2 d6 normally (ignoring extra dice from Martial Arts). Using a Fastball Special, Wolverine has a lot more dice to add to his claw strikes.

 

I can't honestly recall how the Move Through DCs stack up on a HKA with Advantages, but it sounds as though Wolverine can max out his HKA and do 4d6 Killing Damage, double Armour Piercing.

 

Painful, but not as effective as shown in the comics. Am I missing something? I appreciate that I might have underestimated the base HKA, so perhaps that's it.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

No, you pretty much hit it on the head. Yes, there's a loss of velocity due to air resistance and the like, but unless you're talking about heavy winds (meaning 20mph+), it's a negligible concern. Any 'wind resistance' is going to be counteracted by velocity gained from loss of height. Fire a weapon laterally at 1500 fps; drop a bullet at the same time from the same height. Which one hits the ground first? Neither; they strike simultaneously, albeit in widely separated locations.

 

While I'm not yet intimately acquainted with FREd's rules on using Move-Bys, STR, AND Martial Arts all to add damage to your HKA, I believe that they all CAN -- albeit with different specific rules for adding. Crimson Arrow's basic premise is, however, correct; the faster Logan moves, the more chance he has of maxing out his damage.

 

You might remember that Wolverine's claws are only knives; the fact that they can cut through Damn Near Anything means that they'll chop into Iron Man just as well as Thug #2. Instead of using a variation on Armor Piercing, I'd call it a variation on Penetrating -- several levels' worth, at least three. About the only thing in regular comics that's out-and-out resisted his claws was Captain America's shield... there's even a great poster of that fight.

[Kid Chaos]

Hrmmm...good points.

 

Never considered what would happen with DI or Size Changes. I'll have to do something in case a player gets creative.

 

My wife loves pulling the fastball on villians as her usual projectile comes complete with a damage shield. he usually leaves it on as my wife's main power is anti-energy blaster. Her absorbed takes energy attacks and feeds her strength/defenses. A bizzare combination all in all. I should probably post that to the broken power thread I suppose except it takes the two of them to make it really nasty.

[DocMan]

Yeah, I've always viewed the Fastball Special as a convenient way for two characters with limited movement to get one of their number into striking range of a distant foe. Damage wise, its a more difficult than normal Move-By/through. I think we've only done it once or twice. Irony is that one of the times it was my brick, Moleculon, who was thrown. He has growth and shrinking powers. So he shrinks down to his smallest size, gets a teammate to throw him, and then grows to maximum height. Memory says that the number of dice to roll at once was horrific.

 

Another similar tactic I used to use was in my first Champions campaign. I had a teleporting MA with clinging and a force sword. One of my teammates was a flying brick in an armor suit. My character would cling to his back, and he would fly among the enemies. He would do Move By's on the enemies on one side while I would do MA attacks (+ velocity bonus) on the opposite side. The GM at that time ruled that since my character wasn't spending effort moving, he could focus his full strength on the strikes.

 

Doc

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by DocMan

Yeah, I've always viewed the Fastball Special as a convenient way for two characters with limited movement to get one of their number into striking range of a distant foe. Damage wise, its a more difficult than normal Move-By/through. I think we've only done it once or twice. Irony is that one of the times it was my brick, Moleculon, who was thrown. He has growth and shrinking powers. So he shrinks down to his smallest size, gets a teammate to throw him, and then grows to maximum height. Memory says that the number of dice to roll at once was horrific.

 

Another similar tactic I used to use was in my first Champions campaign. I had a teleporting MA with clinging and a force sword. One of my teammates was a flying brick in an armor suit. My character would cling to his back, and he would fly among the enemies. He would do Move By's on the enemies on one side while I would do MA attacks (+ velocity bonus) on the opposite side. The GM at that time ruled that since my character wasn't spending effort moving, he could focus his full strength on the strikes.

 

Doc

 

Ugh. Not good.

 

Anyway, as I pointed out earlier, each doubling of the mass decreases the velocity significantly. If you Grow or DI much, you fall to the ground before you ever get to the target, because even a projectile accelerates downward at 9.8m/s^2 at least around here.