Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

The general rule here is that events are fluid until they have been observed' date=' at which point they become static and immutable[/i'].

 

That sounds pretty much like how GURPS approached it with their "Observer Effect" notion. I'll have to dig out my old Timemaster stuff to see what kind of time tricks I'll allow, and I'll compare it to the Doctor Who info that tkdguy posted a link to.

 

Rep to him for that, btw.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

So I'd DEFINITELY advise that the actual time travel device itself take a back seat. But it sounds like Steve is planning that anyway -- treating it as a gateway into particular eras' date=' rather than a problem-solving device in and of itself. I approve! Definitely the way to go unless you like seeing your players' brains turn into mobius strips. (Heck, the time machine might in fact only be able to opena window into the past... you can choose location and time, but perhaps from a list. No skipping around freely; you can go to any time period, but not [i']anywhere[/i] in any time period. Just plot critical times, not the times the PCs might want to go to. If you just make it Schroedinger-like, then they'll go 'wow, okay, we can't make it there in time. I guess we better cover our eyes and ears and go back to the TARDIS to travel back and hope we don't see anything to make this timeline stick before we get back there.'

 

Also helps if their Time Lady is a moral stickler and stops them doing stuff like leaving bank accounts to accrue for 500 years or whatever. Unless you want that to happen!

 

That is pretty much my thinking for how to make this campaign work. It's a way that I could put together a party that could include such wildly different origins as a 1930s detective, a barbarian from the Valdorian Age, and a noble from the Terran Empire of the 26th century, to name a few options off the top of my head. Yes, they could go to London in 1941, but that's more of a setting for the actual adventure than going there to try and change history or something.

 

With the Elder Worm and their minions lurking in the dark corners of history, my Malvan time traveller and her companions could foil their plots, among other adventures. If I go with the notion of a small society of Malvan dilletantes as time travellers, it also lets me play with some intrigue and politics, especially if these other Malvans also have small groups of assistants with them. Romana herself would be more of a way for me to do infodumps to the players, so I would need to make sure I don't overshadow the PCs with her.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

As for statting the machine: even if you dont' stat it precisely, some things should be thought about. For one, is it like the TARDIS, in that people go inside and are shielded from the elements? If so, what are its tolerances? Could it appear in space? In an acid fog? On Mercury? In lava? On the surface of the Sun? Could it fly through a black hole?

 

What about its defences: if they run into the box to escape cavemen, can the cavemen force the door open? Go forward some millennia: could catapults damage it? Cannon? Tanks? Anti-particle beams?

 

What's the security like? Could a skilled 20th century burglar break in? Can the lock be picked at all without Malvan technology?

 

Who can operate it? Does it require only the requisite skill, or is there some telepathic/symbiotic link to the Malvan in order to operate? If so, can this be spoofed -- could another Malvan, or the Elder Worm enemy, potentially commandeer the vessel?

 

Hm, what else... oh yeah, can it change its appearances? What does it look like? Will it reasonably blend into its surroundings, or will they have to try to disguise it when they appear in local time (better hope someone knows camouflage techniques).

 

The questions about its defences and stuff can be circumvented if it's not all-enclosing... say, an actual portal, or some kind of hand-held device. But then you've got the guys running around with it, so you can't have the 'must run back to the ship before the planet blows up!' scenario. And it'll be even more tempting to use it to circumvent obstacles.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment!

 

Keep the ideas coming!

 

In order to do a proper homage to the good Doctor's adventures (which is part of my goals), I would use something like a TARDIS, an actual vehicle that the PCs would arrive in, park somewhere, and then leave to go have the actual adventure. Based on descriptions of Malvan technology in the Terran Empire sourcebook, I'd rate it as being darn near indestructible from anything short of equivalent technology. As far as picking the lock, I couldn't see that happening without Malvan technology either. That leaves the chronoporter (or whatever I end up calling it), as more of a plot convenience to get the PCs from place to place across time.

 

Having an enemy able to commandeer the vessel is definitely a possibility, but it would require another Malvan or maybe an Elder Worm to do it. I haven't decided how 'user friendly' to make the vehicle. It could require a skill roll, which would keep down the numbers of Malvans who would pursue such a hobby. But it could also require a telepathic link as well. One feature that the TARDIS provided which was nice was its universal translator ability, so everyone seemed to be speaking English, even nightmarish aliens. That would pretty much eliminate any need to buy languages though, unless taken just in case the chronoporter left without a PC, and he needed to talk with the natives.

 

As far as camouflage, it would definitely need that. I could also borrow a notion from Timemaster. Their vehicles could be set to hover on the verge of being, essentially desolid and invisible until called back.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

One decision I would have to make would be if the technology of time travel is just hers to use' date=' or if there is a small group of Malvans who indulge in this hobby. I could see it as a secret society of sorts, but more like a social club with politics and some intrigue among the ranks. Gee, this is sounding more and more like how the Time Lords operated. [/quote']

 

From the present day onward, the Malvans are described as having mostly forgotten how to build or even repair the technology they inherited from their ancestors. There have been a few exceptions, though, like the Malvan engineer who enhanced the Star*Guard's staves in the Champions 3000 era. Someone who rediscovered some of their lost science might be coveted by the Malvan establishment, particularly by any faction which sought to restore Malva's past glory.

 

Also keep the Wisdom Stones in mind. These calcified preserved minds of great Malvans of the past could be sponsors for your Malvan, sending her on specific missions for the betterment of the galaxy; or they might oppose her temporal meddling and dispatch agents of their own to try to stop her.

 

Continuing the analogy with the Doctor, consider giving her another Malvan who has become her great rival or opponent; perhaps a past companion of hers who was inspired by her example, but has taken temporal meddling to a more dangerous extreme.

 

Getting away from the Malvans for a moment, another possible origin for your character would be the Mandaarians. They also possess advanced technology, but are resolute non-interventionists except in matters of threats to the whole Galaxy, like the Nibu Gemani in the post-Terran Empire period. Your character could be a more pro-active rebel Mandaarian. Note that about 40% of Mandaarians also possess psionic powers, so you could go that route with her or not, as you chose.

[Curufea]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

In the Who universe there is only one timeline - but there are the occasional alternate universes.

 

However, the quite excellent BTRC RPG of Timelords, which I bought ages ago, goes into detail about quantum universes (not sure if that was the terminology they used, but it's the one I use) - On the plus side, you can change whatever you like, even the past events in your own life. On the minus side - it isn't really "your life" but one version of you in the infinite multitude of alternate timelines.

The Timecops in Timelords spend most of their time correcting percentages of all the timelines - so that the majority of them aren't stuffed up by rogue timetravellers.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Also keep the Wisdom Stones in mind. These calcified preserved minds of great Malvans of the past could be sponsors for your Malvan' date=' sending her on specific missions for the betterment of the galaxy; or they might oppose her temporal meddling and dispatch agents of their own to try to stop her.[/quote']

 

I'd forgotten about the Wisdom Stones. They would make an excellent resource for her, as well as a possible source for opposition. I wonder if they have factions themselves, or if they are more of a glorified computer system?

 

 

Continuing the analogy with the Doctor' date=' consider giving her another Malvan who has become her great rival or opponent; perhaps a past companion of hers who was inspired by her example, but has taken temporal meddling to a more dangerous extreme.[/quote']

 

I could see another Malvan doing this, since they still seem to play petty games with each other amidst their dying culture. Taking over the galaxy would be one way to relieve the tedium of immortality.

 

 

Getting away from the Malvans for a moment' date=' another possible origin for your character would be the Mandaarians. They also possess advanced technology, but are resolute non-interventionists except in matters of threats to the whole Galaxy, like the Nibu Gemani in the post-Terran Empire period. Your character could be a more pro-active rebel Mandaarian. Note that about 40% of Mandaarians also possess psionic powers, so you could go that route with her or not, as you chose.[/quote']

 

I considered using a Mandaarian, but the mindset didn't seem right. If I imagine a wandering demigod dilettante, I tend to think more of the Malvans than the Mandaarians. Although they could have their own involvement in policing time, which makes them another source of possible opposition.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

In the Who universe there is only one timeline - but there are the occasional alternate universes.

 

However, the quite excellent BTRC RPG of Timelords, which I bought ages ago, goes into detail about quantum universes (not sure if that was the terminology they used, but it's the one I use) - On the plus side, you can change whatever you like, even the past events in your own life. On the minus side - it isn't really "your life" but one version of you in the infinite multitude of alternate timelines.

The Timecops in Timelords spend most of their time correcting percentages of all the timelines - so that the majority of them aren't stuffed up by rogue timetravellers.

 

I'll have to take a look at the Timelords RPG. Having a single timeline does fit more in line with Doctor Who, but it's also the classical view of time, where it's like a river you can travel up and down. Although that does raise the specter of something like a timestream split as a very bad thing to try and avoid, which was how it was presented in Simon Hawke's Time Wars series.

[Curufea]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

I haven't read that.

 

One of the main problems with quantum universes is that it makes the PCs feel insignificant and unimportant. Like a non-Amberite in the Amber game.

They would be highly unlikely to ever find the timeline they originated from and when they do decide to stop wandering and settle down - there may be slight discrepancies in their universe that will bug them all the time.

 

On the plus side, the policing of time would be a never ending task, and if you make a major mistake that effects multiple timelines, it is easier to fix than it is if you only have one timeline.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Ok, I am going to post the .hdc files of the TARDIS-like devise I created.

 

one more .hdc to follow

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

the last .hdc file

 

I hope that this helps. I did take a bit of dramatic licence with the design's.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Ok, I am going to post the .hdc files of the TARDIS-like devise I created.

 

one more .hdc to follow

 

I give thee rep, sir!

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

I haven't read that.

 

One of the main problems with quantum universes is that it makes the PCs feel insignificant and unimportant. Like a non-Amberite in the Amber game.

They would be highly unlikely to ever find the timeline they originated from and when they do decide to stop wandering and settle down - there may be slight discrepancies in their universe that will bug them all the time.

 

On the plus side, the policing of time would be a never ending task, and if you make a major mistake that effects multiple timelines, it is easier to fix than it is if you only have one timeline.

 

I think multiple timelines might muddy the waters too much, especially since the Hero Universe's standard timeline offers quite a lot of variety on its own. If the number of time travellers is kept really small, it minimizes their impact and makes the heroes feel even more special for being able to do such travelling.

 

V'Han raises some interesting questions. From what I recall in Galactic Champions, at the end of the Superhero Age she swears to leave Earth alone for a thousand years. But does that mean that region of time is what she leaves untouched? Or does it mean she leaves all of its history untouched for a thousand years?

 

Magic is another thing to consider. Does it sweep all over the universe equally, or does it have zones where it's stronger some places and weaker in others? What I get from reading the Champions line of sourcebooks is that magic is a universe-wide phenomena, and its levels affect everywhere at once. It may rise and fall like the tide, but that tide is evenly dispersed.

 

Malvan-tech seems like it is "genuine" super-technology as opposed to "superhero" super-technology. Magic levels are low in Terran Empire times, but it all still works just fine. That raises an interesting notion of comparative technologies when looked at across time. When magic allows it, some really oddball stuff works, and that might be fascinating to technology types. I mean, pick up an UNTIL blaster in 2001 and then zip forward to 2601, and it become so much junk. Zip forward to 3001, and it works again. But take a blaster from 2601 and zip back to 2001, and it works the same. Can you imagine what that would do to an engineer or physicist?

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

One thing to consider if you do this .... determine if the travelers can alter the time-line or .... if the actions they take is what happens to make the time line the way it is?

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

I haven't read that.

 

The Time Wars series is what I feel to be the best writing that Simon Hawke ever did, all twelve books of it. It started out with time travel being used as a way to fight wars out of sight. Soldiers would be inserted into historical battle scenes instead, and the results tabulated by means of an elaborate scoring system.

 

Then the Timekeepers started messing with things, a terrorist organization devoted to ending the Time Wars. The first book pretty much set the tone for the series with Finn DeLaney, who was endlessly getting promoted in the field for being such a good soldier, only to get demoted just as often back home for his inability to tolerate spit and polish discipline sorts. With a few other soldiers, like another series regular, Lucas Priest, he's brought in and the officer in charge of the operation offers everyone coffee, alcohol, cigarettes, or whatever they could want.

 

Finn's reaction? "Oh sh*t, we're dead."

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

One thing to consider if you do this .... determine if the travelers can alter the time-line or .... if the actions they take is what happens to make the time line the way it is?

 

That is a very good question, and one I have been thinking about a bit.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

If you set it up that the Travelers are the ones that are the reason that history goes the way it should you need to remember if they fail.....history changes, or at the very least creates an seperate time-line from that point.

 

If you do allow the divergent time-line then it might become the Travelers new timeline, for better or worse.

[Inu]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

I haven't read that.

 

One of the main problems with quantum universes is that it makes the PCs feel insignificant and unimportant. Like a non-Amberite in the Amber game.

They would be highly unlikely to ever find the timeline they originated from and when they do decide to stop wandering and settle down - there may be slight discrepancies in their universe that will bug them all the time.

 

On the plus side, the policing of time would be a never ending task, and if you make a major mistake that effects multiple timelines, it is easier to fix than it is if you only have one timeline.

I can certainly see where the powerlessness comes in -- that even if you save a group of people, well, they'd have been saved one way or another anyway, so you didn't lose anything!

 

One option would be that the TARDIS is drawn to its own timeline. If you change history, then you change the course of that timeline -- so for you, history has indeed changed. If you kill your grandfather, then time changes so you were never born. You're still there, of course, because you originated in another timeline. You're an interloper, if you like it.

 

Moreover, just because the universe splits constantly doesn't mean that ANYTHING is possible. The PCs may intervene and create a new timeline that never existed before -- because without them, it was impossible for a group of people to survive. Now they have survived, and since they changed history, they now exist in that timeline!

 

It DOES, however, get a bit testing on the old noggin, so it may simply be best ejected in favour of a single timestream. (But if someone DOES want infinite timelines, it gives them a way to have that while still allowing for paradoxes.)

 

Actually, I guess that's more or less how Dr Who operates under the new series. It's explicitly stated that every decision creates alternate timelines, BUT that alternate timelines are walled off (but that travel between them used to be possible). At least, that's how I recall the conversation. Under my schema, it woudln't be truly impossible, but you'd just get naturally drawn back to your own.

 

In any timeline, one thing to consider is: how big a change can people make? If you crush a butterfly in the jurassic age, will this have no effect? will it change an election result? Will it negate the evolution of humanity, leading to intelligent fish?

 

There are certain theories that timelines will just repair themselves, minimising the long-term effect of changes. So that the crushed butterfly may lead to a slightly different universe, or not change anything long-term, but won't lead to an entirely different one.

 

Such as: you kill Hitler as a boy. Someone else becomes the Fuhrer and WW2 proceedes as planned.

You crush a butterfly in the jurassic age. Nothing interesting ensues.

You drop a nuke on the Founding Fathers as they write the Declaration/Constitution/etc. That's prolly a bit much for the Revolution to recover from... so either the English win, or perhaps other people take over, creating the Fascist State of America. But eventually things smooth out, the moderates take over, so perhaps 1000 years later, you end up with the same US that would have existed anyway, but perhaps a bit more hard-edged (or even more peaceful, given that they evolved from fascists).

You destroy the planet Earth. Well, that's kinda hard to recover from. I guess earth is screwed, but the galaxy as a whole may develop another civilisation that will influence the galaxy in a similar way to the Humans, even though they aren't remotely human. So the galaxy in 200,000 years time may look fairly similar... just without humanity.

 

This allows the PCs to effect changes, without having to wear CSI-style booties to avoid dropping single skin cells in previous eras, thus destroying the ecosystem.

[Inu]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

It also means that you still have things that the PCs can fix up that other time travellers have screwed up -- say, The Master induces an alien civilisation to enslave humanity. Yes, eventually, the human race would throw off the shackles of the oppressors (or, going by our domestic history, interbreeding with and absorbing their culture), and eventually the timeline would be restored. But in the meantime, things are going to suck and a lot of people will die in the invasion. That's still a problem -- so The Doctor has incentive to fix it and prevent a thousand years of suffering.

[input.jack]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Idle thought...what if the central "processor" of the time machine IS one of the preserved brains of the Malvan ancients? What if you -need- one to get the machine to run? It would make the machine almost an NPC in and of itself, and might explain why it only voluntarily works for other Malvans (and other people it "knows")

[Silverhawk]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

In any timeline, one thing to consider is: how big a change can people make? If you crush a butterfly in the jurassic age, will this have no effect? will it change an election result? Will it negate the evolution of humanity, leading to intelligent fish?

 

There are certain theories that timelines will just repair themselves, minimising the long-term effect of changes. So that the crushed butterfly may lead to a slightly different universe, or not change anything long-term, but won't lead to an entirely different one.

 

Such as: you kill Hitler as a boy. Someone else becomes the Fuhrer and WW2 proceedes as planned.

You crush a butterfly in the jurassic age. Nothing interesting ensues.

You drop a nuke on the Founding Fathers as they write the Declaration/Constitution/etc. That's prolly a bit much for the Revolution to recover from... so either the English win, or perhaps other people take over, creating the Fascist State of America. But eventually things smooth out, the moderates take over, so perhaps 1000 years later, you end up with the same US that would have existed anyway, but perhaps a bit more hard-edged (or even more peaceful, given that they evolved from fascists).

You destroy the planet Earth. Well, that's kinda hard to recover from. I guess earth is screwed, but the galaxy as a whole may develop another civilisation that will influence the galaxy in a similar way to the Humans, even though they aren't remotely human. So the galaxy in 200,000 years time may look fairly similar... just without humanity.

 

 

As I recall, when BRTC's Timelords discussed this they related it in terms of significance. It might not mean a whole lot for someone in Algeria if you kill your Grandpa, but it is significant for your Grandma.

 

I always liked having events that would happen regardless. I had a alternate timeline in a Champions game where I brought one of the PC's back to a traumatic event that he caused. Of course in this time line it was caused by an NPC who in the normal time line was a villian. In this timeline he was actually a hero who worshiped the PC in question.

 

When the event in question occurred, the PC was shocked to discover the 'villian' was upset for having caused the event in question to occur. It took the rest of the party to help convince the PC that this wasn't the same NPC that they normally encountered.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Idle thought...what if the central "processor" of the time machine IS one of the preserved brains of the Malvan ancients? What if you -need- one to get the machine to run? It would make the machine almost an NPC in and of itself' date=' and might explain why it only voluntarily works for other Malvans (and other people it "knows") [/quote']

 

Okay, now that is a very cool idea, and it would also give the chronoporter a personality, kind of like how the TARDIS was shown to have a mind of its own sometimes throughout the series. I'd rep you for this, but I can't right now.

 

By using a Wisdom Stone, that also gives a potential reason why this Malvan is a renegade of sorts. Maybe she had to steal a Wisdom Stone in order to reactivate an ancient Malvan chronoporter, maybe one that's been sitting in storage for tens of thousands of years. The other Wisdom Stones may have allowed this to pass without reprisal, on condition that as part of her travels occasionally she'd perform tasks on their behalf. I also like the idea of a machine that could talk back too.

[tkdguy]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Here's a link to some Doctor Who Miniatures available.

[Curufea]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

And paper minis available at my favourite free paper min site

http://www.paperworlds.com - although only Daleks so far including the Bling Dalek. But others are available on other sites from a brief search.

 

However this is kinda off topic for time travel within the published scifi setting for Hero

 

On a side note - we did talk in chat this week about the possibility of another genre book dealing with alternate universes, dimension travel (like Champions 3D), time travel, and the possibility of a campaign that spans all published settings for Hero.

[Steve]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

On a side note - we did talk in chat this week about the possibility of another genre book dealing with alternate universes' date=' dimension travel (like Champions 3D), time travel, and the possibility of a campaign that spans all published settings for Hero.[/quote']

 

That is excellent news indeed! How strong a possibility is it?

[Curufea]

Re: Time travel Dr. Who style - Hero Universe

 

Not strong.. Only Steve of the company was on and he concerned himself mainly with current products. There was interest from us non-officials in the room though