Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

[Lord_Winter]

Hi everyone,

I would like to build an exotic fighters. This is my idea.

 

I've placed on him STR 20.

I would like then to build him a Multipower of a certain amount of Points, and have in each slot, accordingly to the active points, those advantages:

 

* STR punches are Penetrating

* STR punches are 1/2 end

* STR punches are NND

 

simulating exotic combat tactics.

 

Now my question is:

How I calculate Active point to be applied? the +10 on str? directly 20?

 

Help please

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Hi everyone,

I would like to build an exotic fighters. This is my idea.

 

I've placed on him STR 20.

I would like then to build him a Multipower of a certain amount of Points, and have in each slot, accordingly to the active points, those advantages:

 

* STR punches are Penetrating

* STR punches are 1/2 end

* STR punches are NND

 

simulating exotic combat tactics.

 

Now my question is:

How I calculate Active point to be applied? the +10 on str? directly 20?

 

Help please

 

Here are a couple of easier options to consider:

 

18 Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Variable Advantage (+1 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; (Penetrating & Reduced End 0) or NND; +1 3/4); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

or

 

13 Variable HA: Multipower, 20-point reserve, (20 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

1u 1) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, NND ([standard]; +1); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

1u 2) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Penetrating (+1/2); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

The character can combine either build with up to 10 STR and still keep the advantages (except that 0 End will not affect the 10 STR used)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Any Advantage on Strength is calculated on the total Strength that it applies to, not just the amount that you pay to increase it above its free base amount. For example, STR 20 would count as 20 Active Points, so a +1/2 Advantage like Armor Piercing would cost 10 points.

 

However, I have to point out that using a Naked Advantage as a slot in a Multipower is against the default rules. If you are the Game Master for your game you can certainly rule that this is allowable (I know of one published character written by Steve Long in which he does exactly that, although he notes that he's bending the rules), but IMO a whole Multipower full of Naked Advantages is a little unbalanced.

 

However, you can get the same effect legally by buying another Advantage, "Variable Advantages," for your character's STR. This allows you to switch between several Advantages of a given amount at will.

[Lord_Winter]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

So the Multipower offered by Hyper-Man will be a viable and legal option?

And what happens if the STR base is more than 10? I've to bought more active points in the Multipower?

 

For Lord Liaden: If my char (NPC, I'm the GM) has 20 STR, to buy the STR with Variable Advantages I've to pay it:

 

20x(1+1and3/4 [Variable,till+1,limitedgroup])=55 pts ... right? Or I still have to apply the -1/2 for HA ... 37pts?

 

Luca

 

P.S.: after the replies to the questions above, expecially the one for LordLiaden... ... what happens IF a companion cast on me Aid STR, making it greater?

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

I also would be more inclined to just got with a Naked Variable Advantage for your 20 pts of STR.

 

I have, on occassion, thrown a couple of Naked Advantages in a MultiPower...but I don't do it often. Mostly on villains, and then, villains can always have more points. It was just easier for me to remember if it was in an MP.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Yes, Hyper-Man's Multipower option is perfectly legal, because the Advantages are being applied to Hand-To-Hand Attack in each slot rather than as Naked Advantages. You also calculated the cost of Variable Advantages directly on your character's Strength correctly, assuming a maximum Advantage of +1 and only the three Advantages you mentioned.

 

If someone used Aid to increase your Strength: if the Advantages were applied directly to your Strength, then the Aid would affect the total Active Points in Strength plus Advantages, i.e. the points gained would be divided between the base Strength and its Advantages. In the case of Hyper-Man's Multipower, all the points gained from Aid would go to Strength; however, this would not increase the damage done by any HA in the Multipower, which in this case can only be increased to double the base Damage regardless of how much more Strength is used - i.e. it can never do more than 4d6.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

I also would be more inclined to just got with a Naked Variable Advantage for your 20 pts of STR.

 

I have, on occassion, thrown a couple of Naked Advantages in a MultiPower...but I don't do it often. Mostly on villains, and then, villains can always have more points. It was just easier for me to remember if it was in an MP.

 

The Naked Variable Advantage would be the most expensive option since it would be at least a +1 3/4 advantage (35 points) but as LL points out it would allow Aid to increase the advantaged damage unlike the HA methods.

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

The Naked Variable Advantage would be the most expensive option since it would be at least a +1 3/4 advantage (35 points) but as LL points out it would allow Aid to increase the advantaged damage unlike the HA methods.

 

Yep. Although, we almost never have any Aids in our campaigns. So the HA would probably make more sense.

 

Shrug.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Strength is why naked advangtages became 'necessary'.

 

Personally I don't like naked advantages at all in superheroic games, although I can see some utility for them in heroic games.

 

I prefer to assume you just don't need to use advantages if you don't want to which, I suppose, makes all advantages partially naked. Obviously this is not helpful for your problem, I'm just saying.

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Strength is why naked advangtages became 'necessary'.

 

I don't think that is necessarily the case. One of the big switches between the BBB and FREd was the advent of the "Power Tricks." A number of Power Tricks, regardless of your Power, is the ability to add different Advantages to the Power to more accurately reflect the side abilities of your Power.

 

For instance, a flame guy and now purchase a Naked Penetrating to reflect him using his flame blast as a cutter/welder. He can also purchase a naked AOE: Hex to reflect himself fanning the blast over an area. This was one of the things we always wanted to do in BBB, but just never quite had it worked out as succinctly as it is in FREd.

 

There was another short falling with the BBB. Sometimes you had a power, like Invisibility, that was partially modified. Maybe you want the No Fringe aspect to be x2 END (to simulate that the character has to try very hard to meld the Invisibility field with reality). Maybe you want to buy off an Always On, but have it cost x3 END to turn the Invisibility off. There were no rules in the BBB to do so. We were pretty much using Naked Modifiers, but it wasn't codified and it wasn't as streamlined as it is now.

 

I think these things are more why Naked Modifieres came into existance, rather than some kind of "hack" to get more out of STR (yeah, yeah, "which is already underpriced," BLEH! ).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

The obvious answer to the OPs question is that advantages on stats must be based on total points and not just cost.

 

The simplest reason why is that it would be free to have an infinite amount of advantages on a 10 STR if it were not the case.

[Lord_Winter]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

You also calculated the cost of Variable Advantages directly on your character's Strength correctly, assuming a maximum Advantage of +1 and only the three Advantages you mentioned.

 

THX for the clarification everyone.

 

Last question: so the pts of cost will be 55 or 37? the -1/2 limitation of HA applies?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

THX for the clarification everyone.

 

Last question: so the pts of cost will be 55 or 37? the -1/2 limitation of HA applies?

 

That depends on which build you choose.

 

15 for the HA Multipower

18 for the HA with Variable Advantage

24 for a Naked Advantage (on STR) Multipower

35 for a Variable Naked Advantage (on STR)

 

This all assumes that you want the character to be able to use STR to do either

a) 4d6 NND

4d6 Penetrating with 0 END

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

However' date=' I have to point out that using a Naked Advantage as a slot in a Multipower is against the default rules. If you are the Game Master for your game you can certainly rule that this is allowable (I know of one published character written by Steve Long in which he does exactly that, although he notes that he's bending the rules), but IMO a whole Multipower full of Naked Advantages is a little unbalanced.[/quote']

 

It's not illegal at all. Naked Advantages are Standard Powers in every sense of the word (Visible, cost END by default, and may freely be placed inside Frameworks).

 

In this case the MP of NAs affects STR. As long as they affect a Power outside any other Framework it is a legal and valid build.

 

Ogre's build in the The Ultimate Brick has 3 Naked Advantage Powers in his Multipower.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

It's not illegal at all. Naked Advantages are Standard Powers in every sense of the word (Visible, cost END by default, and may freely be placed inside Frameworks).

 

In this case the MP of NAs affects STR. As long as they affect a Power outside any other Framework it is a legal and valid build.

 

Ogre's build in the The Ultimate Brick has 3 Naked Advantage Powers in his Multipower.

 

Well, I'm still going by FREd since I don't have 5ER, so I can't say if it's been changed; but in the description of Naked Power Advantages on FREd p. 157, it says, "Naked Power Advantages are considered Special Powers." Also, on Conquerors, Killers And Crooks p. 64, the description of Temblor says that "Temblor's Spikey Stone Fist power requires the GM's permission, since it involves placing a naked Power Advantage in a Power Framework." The fact that the writeup has implicitly received "GM's permission" doesn't in itself negate the default rule.

 

If the official ruling has changed under 5ER, I apologize to Lord_Winter for misleading him.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Huh, you're right. They're Special Powers not Standard Powers. Wonder what led me to believe otherwise.

 

Either way, I personally believe that NAs in a Framework are not an issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

Interesting though that, even with GM permission, this is a problem most likely to affect Hand Attack.

 

EB: +1/2 limited variable advantage on 8d6: Total cost 70 points

 

EB: 8d6: 40 points

PLUS +1/2 naked advantage 1: 20 points

PLUS +1/2 naked advantage 2: 20 points

Total cost 80 points

 

OR

 

EB Multipower 60 point pool

SLOT 1 ULTRA 6 points

SLOT 2 ULTRA 6 points

 

Total cost 72 points

 

OR

EB: 8d6: 40 points

Naked advantage multipower pool: 20 points

SLOT 1: 2 points

SLOT 2: 2 points

 

Total cost 64 points

 

Of course the 'whole thing' MP has the advantage that one of the slots could be a 12d6 EB, which you can't do with the other constructs.

 

Now looking at this we can sense in a very real way that all the costings are in the same ball park, so nothing to get too hacked over on cost (although the more slots you add the more the dynamic changes: variable advantage might well beceome a +1 advantage, thus costing 80 points, but it never gets more expensive from there. All the other options get more expensive as you add more utility more or less indefinitely.

 

Looking at the original problem, you could (with much waving of hands) do this:

 

+10 STR 10 points

MP 20 point pool 20 points

SLOT 1 1 point

SLOT 2 1 point

SLOT 3 2 points

 

Total cost 34 points

 

This compares with HyperMan's examples, given that we can remove the cost of extra strength as that is common to both builds, the cost of THIS construct alone comes down to 24 points. Still notably more than the HA examples.

 

One of the biggest problems with the build, from a munchkin POV, is the desire to include NND, which effectively wastes a lot of points as the other advantages are only +1/2. You could either up everything to a +1 advantage, which would not cost much more at all, or find a +1/2 alternative to NND, which will save a lot of points.

 

There's a lot to think about, isn't there?

 

What is right? Well, there is no right in a world where GMs are allowed to keep their hands.

 

Having said that HA is the officially approved way to model normal damage in melee. Complete PITA, if you ask me, the whole sorry mess. There is such a thing as too much choice as it seems to me we are not really arguing about builds that function differently at a mechanical level, we are arguing about the price. Having a choice of prices for the same thing is very silly indeed. I know that there is effectively a standing joke about there being at least a dozen ways to build ANYTHING in Hero, but usually those different builds do result in subtly different results all approximating the same 'descriptive build'.

 

Ah well. I'm going to need a new soapbox soon: this one is getting worn out

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

One naked advantage for 20 STR (say, a +1/2 Advantage like Armor Piercing), would cost 10 points.

 

A naked Variable Advantage for 20 STR that allowed *any* +1/2 advantage (AP, Pen, 0 END, Autofire, etc.) would cost 20 points.

 

A Multipower of a few +1/2 naked advantages for 20 STR would cost:

 

10 Pool

1u Advantage A (AP)

1u Advantage B (0 END)

1u Advantage C (Explosion)

etc.

 

total cost 10 + 1/slot - between the cost of one specific advantage and Variable Advantage (any).

 

I see no problem with the idea in general. It is abusable, but not automatically abusive.

[dstarfire]

Re: Multipower of naked modifiers... please help

 

For Lord Liaden: If my char (NPC, I'm the GM) has 20 STR, to buy the STR with Variable Advantages I've to pay it:

 

20x(1+1and3/4 [Variable,till+1,limitedgroup])=55 pts ... right? Or I still have to apply the -1/2 for HA ... 37pts?

 

Actually, your math is incorrect. You've already paid for the Str in your attributes section, so all you'd have to pay for would be the additional cost for the advantage, which comes out to a much more palatable 35 pts. To calculate the cost for naked advantages I usually use the formula: AP X advantage cost (would be 20 x 1.75 in the example).

 

I'm surprised everybody's missed this error so far.