Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Looking at this topic, I have an image from the trailer for the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy movie where the human female (whos name I forgot) trys to restrane Zaphod from activating the Heart of Gold by grabing his arms,. This fails because she does not grab his third arm. Is this ability, being harder to restrain, worth 5 points.

 

I see both arguments here, just as a larger then normal character built with the size templates have to pay for their longer reach and hex wide sweeps, you are asking a character to pay for their enhanced ablities due to their extra limb/s.

Paying for the extra limb would be considered a penalty for a releated group of ablities.

 

But is this five point ablity just the cost of being harder to restrain the limbs of the character is my other thought (a minor adder for natural limbs, harder then normal to restrain).

 

Looking at the extra limbs as an adder for being harder to restrain actually makes sense to me, the more I think of it.

 

Tricia McMillan or Trillian.

 

Now regarding the extra limbs: it can do a lot, potentially.

 

Grabbing more than someone with fewer limbbs can

 

Helping you cheat at cards

 

A suprise move in combat

 

Making you harder to restrain.

 

The lsit goes on.

 

Now even if you could do all of that in other ways (and let us assume for the sake of argument that you can) you would have to think it out ahead of time and spend a lot on what is really a minor ability.

 

Extra Limbs: 5 points is so much more elegant. You know it makes sense.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

The I'll ask you the same thing I asked him: how much is that going to cost your brick?

How many limbs do you want?

 

1-2 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality): +1/4 Area Effect

3-8 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1/2 Area Effect

9-16 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +3/4 Area Effect

17-32 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 Area Effect

33-64 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/4 Area Effect

65-128 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/2 Area Effect

129-256 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 3/4 Area Effect

257-512 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +2 Area Effect

 

This is just a guess. Feel free to change any numbers or values to suit your needs.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Now regarding the extra limbs: it can do a lot, potentially.

 

Grabbing more than someone with fewer limbbs can

 

Helping you cheat at cards

 

A suprise move in combat

 

Making you harder to restrain.

 

The lsit goes on.

Restrictions...

 

Attacking (Grabbing) more than someone with fewer limbs can: Requires Area Effect

 

Gains a penalty to cheating at card due to restricted movement of joints

 

Suprise move benefits are determine by GM per the rules so it's a wash based on situation.

 

Restrainable is SFX based and is affected by Size (Growth/Shrinking), Substance (Desolid, Shapeshifting), Agility (Skill), and possibly Additional Limbs (Extra Limbs) depending on the goal... if the goal is restraining each limb, then yes, if goal is restraining individual, then no.

 

So many of things you bring up are SFX based and will have negatives and positives depending on the situation. GM controlled so I don't see it as a mechanic for more Flavor for the characters actions.

 

I do want to point out that everyone continues to bring up the Grabbing more than one target aspect. This benefit is not supported by the rules as people have been describing it. You don't get to grab 6 six targets in a single action, that requires a sweep manuever or Area Effect applied to STR. You may be able to grab a target one phase then on the next phase grab another target and so forth, just like Telekinesis does and normal STR with two limbs for two targets. Just a clarification on what the current mechanics allow you do.

 

Now even if you could do all of that in other ways (and let us assume for the sake of argument that you can) you would have to think it out ahead of time and spend a lot on what is really a minor ability.

Thank you. That's my point. Extra Limbs, by itself, only allows you do something that is minor and well within the realm of SFX. Anything more major that has been listed is already covered by existing mechanics. So Extra Limbs is orphaned as far as mechanics go. In my opinion.

 

Extra Limbs: 5 points is so much more elegant. You know it makes sense.

Simpler to purchase, definately. More elegant? I don't think so. Not with all the mechanic restrictions applied to it and its application as others have already described. (8^D)

 

Rules that are inconsistent with the rest of the rules do not make sense.

Therefore, Extra Limbs falls into that category. (8^D)

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Christopher: simple question -

 

You have a character that wants to be able to grab and hold six other people using his normal strength.

 

What enables you to do that in Hero?

 

Sweep?

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Yes, I suppose that AoE Strength would do the trick, if you make it non-selective and so on and so forth.

 

What would that cost the average character though?

To invert the question, why get it for 5 points' effect?

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Well, I can't rep you again so soon, so I guess this will have to do. (8^D)

You've touched on some the points I was trying to get across, but much better than I have done.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Thanks...shoulders of giants and all that.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Area Effect, eh? Well, it would really only be AE: One Hex, Selective, for +3/4, which then increases the END cost of your STR 75% even if you're only using it on one person/thing, at a time. And of course, it means you can do an unlimited number of things in your hex at the same time, regardless of how many limbs you have. This isn't quite what EL should be.

 

If you buy full AE, Selective for +1.25, your limbs magically get longer in proportion to your STR. 60 STR = +5 Hexes of reach. This isn't what we want Extra Limbs to do.

 

One of the first Champions characters I ever created had Extra Limbs (8 arms, prehensile tail, [plus two non-prehensile wings which don't really count as extra limbs]). Those limbs came in very handy in an early adventure where we had to rescue some people from a burning building. I was able to carry them down four at a time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

How many limbs do you want?

 

1-2 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality): +1/4 Area Effect

3-8 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1/2 Area Effect

9-16 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +3/4 Area Effect

17-32 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 Area Effect

33-64 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/4 Area Effect

65-128 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 1/2 Area Effect

129-256 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +1 3/4 Area Effect

257-512 Extra Limbs (Full Functionality: +2 Area Effect

 

So a 60 STR character should, in your view, pay 120 points to be able to Grab one target at a time, in HTH range, with normal rolls to hit, and hold onto an unlimited number of previously grabbed targets.

 

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.

 

How can we disagree with someone who has clearly thought this through so thoroughly and completely...

 

BTW, you were arguing the existing mechanics were adequate for anything Extra Limbs could do. How is your suggestion above an existing mechanic?

 

Restrictions...

 

Attacking (Grabbing) more than someone with fewer limbs can: Requires Area Effect

 

This does not simulate the ability to grab a second target while holding on to the first. It simulates the ability to strike at multiple targets simultaneously, possibly some a considerable distance away, by hitting a hex.

 

Restrainable is SFX based and is affected by Size (Growth/Shrinking)' date=' Substance (Desolid, Shapeshifting), Agility (Skill), and possibly Additional Limbs (Extra Limbs) depending on the goal... if the goal is restraining each limb, then yes, if goal is restraining individual, then no.[/quote']

 

So without using Extra Limbs, please construct a clean mechanical construct for the ability to make it harder to restrain all the character's limbs without making restraining the character from moving any more difficult. You keep saying the existing mechanics readily handle this, but you're not providing any nice simple builds to back up your claims.

 

I do want to point out that everyone continues to bring up the Grabbing more than one target aspect. This benefit is not supported by the rules as people have been describing it. You don't get to grab 6 six targets in a single action' date=' that requires a sweep manuever or Area Effect applied to STR. You may be able to grab a target one phase then on the next phase grab another target and so forth, just like Telekinesis does and normal STR with two limbs for two targets. Just a clarification on what the current mechanics allow you do.[/quote']

 

You DO have the ability to hold on to one character while Grabbing a second. Show me the other mechanic that permits this, without permitting the Grabbing of multiple targets as a single action as AoE would do.

 

Area Effect' date=' eh? Well, it would really only be AE: One Hex, Selective, for +3/4, which then increases the END cost of your STR 75% even if you're only using it on one person/thing, at a time. And of course, it means you can do an unlimited number of things in your hex at the same time, regardless of how many limbs you have. This isn't quite what EL should be.[/quote']

 

Well, it should probably be more than one hex since I can grab targets in more than one adjacent hex, which is tougher to buy than 1 hex Selective. I guess it's Any Area, but even then if you have too many hexes, based on STR, it makes no sense, just like:

 

If you buy full AE' date=' Selective for +1.25, your limbs magically get longer in proportion to your STR. 60 STR = +5 Hexes of reach. This isn't what we want Extra Limbs to do.[/quote']

 

Exactly! But Christopher is going to show us the quick and clean mechanic under the existing rules that can accomplish this - we just have to wait for his next post!

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb, for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.

 

Now that is my answer, and it's how I like to use the power.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I don't doubt a level of utility with EL, but the issue is that compared to the "state of being" argument on growth and shrinking, the issue is really clouded. Especially considering one extra limb is of no more value than having 20 of those. There is "no direct effect on combat" but the character can of course otherwise do the things a person with multiple limbs could do (though you have to pay points if it overlaps to any mechanics except for, I guess, holding or manipulating stuff).

 

To me, if this is one's natural state, in most campaigns it's going to come with issues to the same degree as shrunken or giant abilities will (and with those, players typically will go ahead and take on the Disads without necessarily paying for some of the niceties).

 

If it's not a natural state, it does have the ability to give some sort of extra ability, but it's much as a Perk or Talent basically, and rather fudgy, still, in mechanical effect.

 

I'm not sure what's hard though about defining a mechanical equivalent to having your arms free, TK goes a long way. That being said, the cost is at least somewhat higher (depending on how much you allow Limitations to apply). But Extra Limbs are a game-layer reponse to a game-level problem as to general suspected real utility. They're a convenience along the same lines as the removed Regeneration, but with less certitude as to applicability and how they interact. I could just as well declare a CE "does stuff with extra limbs" and have no combat effect, except it's not clear whether it's "fair" for me to have the ability.

 

The interaction of Extra Limbs with Stretching gets really interesting for a mere 5 point Adder (effectively) as well.

 

All that said, just because the answer is "this is a game layer rule" doesn't mean it's good or bad. Ultimately, though, it does seem a codification of a limited SFX that could be handled a number of ways including long-hand power constructs that might be suitably heavily Limted or simply created as Perks. It serves as a sort of general guide to the reader that EL isn't a game-breaker so long as you buy what you want mechanically out of it "mostly" with a power.

[casualplayer]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb, for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.

 

Now that is my answer, and it's how I like to use the power.

 

Aha! I thought that's how Extra Limbs used to work.

 

Default template in HERO right now is STR 1 hex AE: Selective No Range with some disadvantages that float between the -0 and -1/4 range (Fine work with only specified two limbs, may only Grab with two specified limbs, -5 STR unless Grab is performed with 2+ limbs, Only one strike/phase, etc.) Maybe we need to acknowledge the implied modifiers already incorporated into STR and work from there to emulate extra limbs.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

So...

I'm not bothering to answer any of your specific arguments because you took my post out of context. The cost argument is meaningless since I said it was a guess and if you don't like it, change it.

 

I was attempting to give Sean and answer to a specific question about how to use Area Effect to be consistent with other Attacks. And wasn't a complete answer at that. I gave the base values of the advantage without any of the imposed limitations for SFX, such as No Range, One Attack Per Limb, etc...

 

I already posted how I would do it in my games...

 

I would have them buy STR as a separate power with SFX of Additional Limbs.

 

But Christopher is going to show us the quick and clean mechanic under the existing rules that can accomplish this - we just have to wait for his next post!

I don't think I ever said it would be clean or quick. I've said existing and consistent. I have said it would be no more difficult than the existing mechanics.

 

Sorry Hugh, but you've failed to convince me that Extra Limbs is worthy of being a mechanic instead of simply a SFX. But I'll certainly evaluate anything else you think I've overlooked.

 

Don't misunderstand the purpose of this thread. It's to allow others to kick around their opinions and in case I overlooked something that would convince me that Extra Limbs is worthy of being a separate mechanic. I'm not trying to convince anyone to change thier mind about Extra Limbs. Its an opportunity for others to change my mind. So far I haven't seen any compelling reason to have Extra Limbs as a separate mechanic.

 

Premise: An Extra Limb should have all the default abilities that a normal limb has in the game mechanically. Then if it is different, the mechanics need to be modified from there. Extra Limbs doesn't do this, but it should if it were to be qualified to be on the same level as Growth and Shrinking.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Vondy]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

 

How can we disagree with someone who has clearly thought this through so thoroughly and completely...

 

Personally, you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

To me' date=' if this is one's natural state, in most campaigns it's going to come with issues to the same degree as shrunken or giant abilities will (and with those, players typically will go ahead and take on the Disads without necessarily paying for some of the niceties).[/quote']

When I started think about Growth and Shrinking in comparison, I realized they also are tightly tied to SFX (Grows Big, Shrinks Down), but the mechanics themselves are basically a package deal of mechanics that are beneficial to those SFX. I presume to make such common SFX easier to handle with the mechanics. Like the Armor and Force Field thing where commonality is the driving force for having them separate. Of course with 5th Editions definition restrictions on Armor now, you can't turn Armor into Force Field that has esoteric defenses. But I'm meandering now... (8^D)

 

If it's not a natural state' date=' it does have the ability to give some sort of extra ability, but it's much as a Perk or Talent basically, and rather fudgy, still, in mechanical effect.[/quote']

Precisely. If the notion was that it was going to be like Growth or Shrinking, then Extra Limbs should mean "Extra Limbs" and bundle the mechanics together that Normal Limbs is associated with.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Personally' date=' you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.[/quote']

Right. I've been trying really hard to ignore them, and trying not to respond in kind which I can do quite easily at times.

 

Hugh normally beats me down with well thought out arguments and evidence, but has been unable to do so on this issue. Perhaps that is annoying him.

 

As for the 5 Point cost is worth all the little things that people have brought up, that's fine if they think it's worth that. But those things aren't what I would buy Extra Limbs (SFX) for. If I were to purchase a mechanic that is called Extra Limbs, and its description says it grants the character Extra Limbs (SFX), then I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.

 

It should be pointed out that your normal default set of limbs lets you do all that. The degree to which you can perform those tasks is still limited by other mechanical factors, like your STR and relevant Skills.

 

At best, having extra limbs ENABLES you to do more. That is what you are paying for. It does not inherently grant you any ability to do more however. You need additional mechanics for that.

 

Is this not fitting?

 

Nightcrawler uses his extra limb (tail) to hang from places, to climb, to balance and to wield a sword or perform various finesse based martial maneuvers like Footsweeps and Choke Holds.

 

The Scorpion uses his extra limb (tail) as a spring to increase his leaps or as a weapon (edged, blunt or ranged depending on era). He may also use it to hold onto large objects, throw things or grab an opponent.

 

The beast uses his extra limbs (feet) as a second set of hands. He uses them to climb, grab, write, type and drink coffee.

 

Dr Octopus uses his extra limbs (tentacles) in so many ways I do not have room to define even half of them.

 

In all cases, they have abilities that are derived from the SFX of having extra limbs. Those abilities are all quite dissimilar and thus no "package deal" price can be reached.

 

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

 

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

For Hugh. (8^D)

 

Prehensile Tail

Tail is strong enough to hold the weight of the character.

Tail has no manipulation (Fingers).

Tail may grab but effectively has no strength for lifting/combat.

Tail may not cause damage as far as combat.

 

Power: 10 STR (Prehensile Tail), No Manipulation -1/2, Zero STR Lift/Combat -2 [Active Points: 10 / Cost: 3 Points)

 

Four Arm Goru

Goru is strong and lift the weight of two men with a single set of limbs.

Second set is identical to first set.

 

Power:

15 STR (1st Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 5 Points)

15 STR (2nd Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 15 Points)

Max Lift: 400 Kilograms (4 Men)

Total Cost: 20 Points

 

Hundred Tentacle Monster (For Sean Specifically)

Monster has weak tentacles.

Monster has 3 inch reach in all directions.

Monster has no manipulation (fingers).

Monster can attack 100 targets simultaneously, but only 100 targets at most.

 

Power:

5 STR (Each Tentacle): Area Effect (1 Hex) Selective +3/4, No Manipulation -1/2, 100 Targets Maximum -1 [Active Points: 9 / Cost: 4 Points]

3" Stretching

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

 

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.

I agree with everything you've said up to the final sentence.

 

One of the "common mechanics" that most SFX have is STR. 10 STR allows you Lift 100 Kilograms, Grab targets, and inflict 2d6 Damage. These things are a bargain at 10 Points.

 

Here's another way that I look at this:

If I purchase 10 STR with the SFX (Two Extra Limbs), and I don't purchase Extra Limbs (Mechanic), what does Extra Limbs let me do that my STR won't?

 

Will the GM tell me I can't read the paper with two limbs, hold a cup of coffee, while pouring some sugar into the coffee? Just because I didn't purchase Extra Limbs?

 

What am I missing?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Will the GM tell me I can't read the paper with two limbs, hold a cup of coffee, while pouring some sugar into the coffee? Just because I didn't purchase Extra Limbs?

 

Non combat benefits like this will probably not be considered worth may (if any) points by most GM's or players. It's SFX after all.

 

But, the ability to have multiple limbs free during a grapple that immobilizes 2 limbs? Is that not a benefit that is worth points for? And if so, how would you do it without the power Extra Limbs? It's not an expression of having more STR, bonuses to Punch, Grab and Disarm or extra SPD...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Sweep?

 

Only if you have extra limbs. See page 397 - a character can only sweep grab as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Personally' date=' you should make your points without getting personal. Inserting an ad hominem argument into an otherwise valid point is not only unecessary, but serves to diminish the integrity of the argument as a whole, and demonstrates of inexplicable ill-will. There's no reason to twist the knife. Its just a game.[/quote']

 

Just to turn this whole thread into a bun-fight, I think that you are rather over egging the pudding with that comment. I didn't get the sense that Hugh was personally attacking Christopher to the extent that you suggest.

 

The problem with boards like this, certainly from my POV is that I often write as I talk, and then the comments are there to be seen without the context of the original inflection. Knowing both Hugh and Christopher through these boards over a long period I get the sense that there is no ill-will involved.

 

In fact I recently had cause to commend both Hugh and Robyn on another thread when they were having a long and involved argument without the 'heat' that sometimes develops in these things. There may well have been sarcasm involved at some point (or maybe several) in there but it was not taken to be nasty, and the discussion was, IMO, a model of a lengthy but good natured argument.

 

I thought it was important to balance the scales on this one, to an extent. Thank you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Christopher, your examples of multi-limb 'system' builds all rely on having low strength limbs. It simply does not work if you want, say, a Four Armed Grond: the cost would be 170 points, or the multi-tentacle monster, if it is much stronger than 5 STR, the cost would be astronomical.

 

The problem is that the system has not been built in an entirely logical way so, whilst it would be nice to do everything from basic principles, I don't think you can. I'm not sure that there really are any basic principles.

 

Now for 5 points you are not getting a lot of utility, but I can see some. The cost feels about right even if it does not scale. If I felt that extra limbs was more useful, I'd be worries, but it has nver been a problem for me, and I've never heard anyone complain that it is being abused.

 

On another point, even if it is SFX, I see no problem in principle with paying for useful SFX. There is certainly no obvious downside to extra limbs, so I don't think it meets the SFX criteria anyway, in the way that being particularly large or small would, or could (the fact that you will doubtless look distincitve will get you a disadvantage, so I would say that would not count. You may think otherwise)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

First off, to anyone offended by my comments previously, I apologize. And thanks for the defense, Sean.

 

As for the 5 Point cost is worth all the little things that people have brought up' date=' that's fine if they think it's worth that. But those things aren't what I would buy Extra Limbs (SFX) for. If I were to purchase a mechanic that is called Extra Limbs, and its description says it grants the character Extra Limbs (SFX), then I expect to be able to do all the things with them that my normal limbs do mechanically, like punch someone, wield a weapon, lift extra weight, and so forth. If the mechanic Extra Limbs isn't going to give me that, then why bother buying it in the first place.[/quote']

 

The extra limbs can punch. Nothing gives you the co-ordination to punch multiple people at the same time with no penalty. ASs a GM, however, I would likely allow a 2 armed character to Sweep Punch two targets (one with each fist). A four armed character should logically then be able to Sweep Punch four targets. Mechanical advantage.

 

However, do Extra Limbs actually do this in nature? Do octopi and squids really attack multiple targets with their multiple limbs? I've asked this before with no answer.

 

Similarly, the extra limbs can carry extra weapons, and add to the ability to Sweep. Or a four armed character could carry a two handed weapon and weild a shield. A two armed character could not.

 

Lift extra weight - you lift from your legs. How did two extra arms allow your legs better lift, or your back to support extra weight? The four arms may allow you to carry more where two hands could not have held enough objects to reach your full lifting capacity - how many teacups can you hold in two hands? Four can hold twice as many. Extra limbs could also assist in balancing unweildy objects, something we have limited or no mechanics for. However, I don't see how they would enhance the total you could lift without the STR of your body as a whole being enhanced.

 

I think a number of mechanics have been shown below. Christopher, your examples tend to end with a discalimer of cost basically saying "if you don't like the cost, modify it". Why not just modify the cost of Extra Limbs to match your perception of the value. I'll admit I'm unclear what you think the value is. You say initially it's just SFX, implying no cost. Then you produce a table of advantages from +1/4 to +2, and it looks like the latest structure says "buy your STR again for every two extra limbs desired". That's a pretty wide range of possible costs for a single mechanic.

 

At best, having extra limbs ENABLES you to do more. That is what you are paying for. It does not inherently grant you any ability to do more however. You need additional mechanics for that.

 

But there are still a multitude of benefits to having extra limbs that do have common mechanics. Most of them are already highlighted in this thread and thus not worth repeating.

 

It is those benefits, and nothing more, that you pay your 5 character points for.

 

BINGO - and great examples, by the way.

 

Only if you have extra limbs. See page 397 - a character can only sweep grab as many targets as he has hands/limbs to hold them.

 

That would be a mechanical benefit of extra limbs, would it not?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

For Hugh.

 

Prehensile Tail

Tail is strong enough to hold the weight of the character.

Tail has no manipulation (Fingers).

Tail may grab but effectively has no strength for lifting/combat.

Tail may not cause damage as far as combat.

 

Power: 10 STR (Prehensile Tail), No Manipulation -1/2, Zero STR Lift/Combat -2 [Active Points: 10 / Cost: 3 Points)

 

Now I get it - you want the character to buy his STR AGAIN to be allowed to use it twice. This is a bit more powerful than an Extra Limb in some ways - for example, the character can MPA with a punch from his hands and a Grab with his tail, since they are two separate powers.

 

But is this more valuable than +10 STR, No Figured (-1/2 - why doesn't your 10 STR have No Figured, by the way), does not add to lift or damage (-2), only with Tail (free for SFX by your logic; -1/2 as Restrainable) for the same 3 points, and now he can Grab with 20 STR. Since he only Grabs with his tail, SFX should dictate his hands are still free, correct? Presumably, he can also hang from the chandalier with his tail and have both hands free from his SFX.

 

Four Arm Goru

Goru is strong and lift the weight of two men with a single set of limbs.

Second set is identical to first set.

 

Power:

15 STR (1st Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 5 Points)

15 STR (2nd Set Of Arms) [Active Points: 15, Cost: 15 Points)

Max Lift: 400 Kilograms (4 Men)

Total Cost: 20 Points

 

Here we get into that illogic that Goru's extra arms somehow make his back and legs stronger so he can lift more. Does it make sense that, because he has four arms, Goru can wear heavy armor and be less encumbered?

 

Again, does that second 15 STR add to his figured characteristics? Overall, I'd say buying 15 STR again is a lot less powerful than buying +15 STR overall. This will be exacerbated if his STR is increased, and also if he has more sets of Extra Limbs. I'm assuming each set of 2 limbs (or one lonely limb) requires the STR be purchased separately again. Did you envision unlimited limbs for the single purchase? I expect not, since you would logically expect six arms to mean he can do things three times, compared to twice for a four armed character or once for a two armed character.

 

Already noted above, this means Grond pays 90 points for his two extra arms. Of course, he no longer needs that bonus Speed, since he can MPA with his two separately purchased sets of arms. On the other hand, Grond could probably now buy Duplication (like a Hydra) for comparable, or even less, points than his two extra arms will cost him under your system.

 

Hundred Tentacle Monster (For Sean Specifically)

Monster has weak tentacles.

Monster has 3 inch reach in all directions.

Monster has no manipulation (fingers).

Monster can attack 100 targets simultaneously, but only 100 targets at most.

 

Power:

5 STR (Each Tentacle): Area Effect (1 Hex) Selective +3/4, No Manipulation -1/2, 100 Targets Maximum -1 [Active Points: 9 / Cost: 4 Points]

3" Stretching

 

Seems very useless, frankly. He can attack 100 targets if they're all in the same hex - those must be very small targets, so he better have a great OCV.. He can't attack targets in two different hexes, since he only has a 1 hex area.

 

At what point does the STR go from "buy it again for each limb" to "area effect"? Grond would be much better off buying AoE 1 Hex Selective, four targets maximum (which, I assume, is a greater limitation than 100 targets) than buying an extra 90 STR for his bonus arms.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I think that Extra Limbs is costed about right. It doesn't do much for a character, but it does do something.

 

A couple of examples to illustrate my thoughts: I have a character who's basically a humanoid lizard-girl, with a tail, bought as Extra Limb, Limited manipulation. She can use it to tail-slap someone in combat for a surpise move, or to hit someone behind her without turning around. She can use it to push or pull things while her hands are full. That's about it; not much utility, but then, she did'nt pay much for it.

 

In my fantasy world, I've got an insect race with four arms (NOT bought with limited manipulation). They can do things like wield a two-handed sword and a shield, or quad-wield one-handed weapons, or dual-wield bows . . . of course, they still only get one primary hand and can only make one full-OCV attack per round normally. But they could, for instance, use a sword and a shield AND carry a lantern at the same time.

 

I think the versatility of extra limbs is worth the five points, but not so useful that it should cost more.