Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Non combat benefits like this will probably not be considered worth may (if any) points by most GM's or players. It's SFX after all.

 

But, the ability to have multiple limbs free during a grapple that immobilizes 2 limbs? Is that not a benefit that is worth points for? And if so, how would you do it without the power Extra Limbs? It's not an expression of having more STR, bonuses to Punch, Grab and Disarm or extra SPD...

I come back to the fact that you would have some vaguely similar benefits to being over-grown, which is considered a 0 point value if a natural state. I don't mean to be a broken record, but I can't quite clearly find the dividing line. I do grant some utility to multiple limbs, no doubt.

 

Maybe "non-restrainable" needs to be an Adder of 5 points to STR.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

 

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

 

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

 

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.

 

 

You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

 

Rook

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Christopher, your examples of multi-limb 'system' builds all rely on having low strength limbs. It simply does not work if you want, say, a Four Armed Grond: the cost would be 170 points, or the multi-tentacle monster, if it is much stronger than 5 STR, the cost would be astronomical.

 

The problem is that the system has not been built in an entirely logical way so, whilst it would be nice to do everything from basic principles, I don't think you can. I'm not sure that there really are any basic principles.

 

Now for 5 points you are not getting a lot of utility, but I can see some. The cost feels about right even if it does not scale. If I felt that extra limbs was more useful, I'd be worries, but it has nver been a problem for me, and I've never heard anyone complain that it is being abused.

 

On another point, even if it is SFX, I see no problem in principle with paying for useful SFX. There is certainly no obvious downside to extra limbs, so I don't think it meets the SFX criteria anyway, in the way that being particularly large or small would, or could (the fact that you will doubtless look distincitve will get you a disadvantage, so I would say that would not count. You may think otherwise)

I think Perks serve as among the best examples of paying for vague SFX, though Change Environment also works. I have seen a character that would otherwise have Extra Limbs just have CE and it worked great (their purpose was not combat-related here but more multi-purpose than the vagararies of the Extra Limb "mechanic").

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

 

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

 

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

 

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.

 

 

You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

 

Rook

Rook looks cool but perhaps because I am at work and not wholly concentrating, I"m missing what EL is giving him specifically, would you please elaborate?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Rook looks cool but perhaps because I am at work and not wholly concentrating' date=' I"m missing what EL is giving him specifically, would you please elaborate?[/quote']

 

It gives him the ability to use his base STR in conjunction w/ the extra STR he bought for his extra limbs, makes his grabs nasty, and lets him do anything a character with a nigh infinite number of limbs with 10" of stretching reasonably would be able to do. Pick stuff up, manipulate things at range, use manuevers, etc etc etc.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Coupling capabilities with Extra Limbs does make for a more explicit build which gives the player control, good example. It also gets around, in a seemingly cost-reasonable way, area type issues. I have to run, will think about it. I do wonder if "non-restrainable" would be a better way though as a simple Adder to powers - much the same in general but a bit cleaner mechanically, as I think about it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

On the question of restrainable, normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.

[SpydirShellX]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.

 

How is this a viable construct? I thought Accurate could only be applied to one hex areas, not radius ones.

 

On the question of restrainable' date=' normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.[/quote']

Um... I don't thing normal strength is restrainable... you get to use it to break out of the restraints. Extra limbs would be restrainable if they couldn't manifest when the person was grabbed or tied up.

 

Question - exactly what effect DO extra arms have? ... most of the posts I been seeing mention grabbing both being able to grab more targets and prevent having all limbs grabbed.

I know that foci that require the use of hands use up one (or two).

 

As I understand things, extra arms mostly are cover by buying other powers. Presumably most effects can vary from limb to limb based on what effects you want.

 

The idea seems to be that certain effects are caused simply by having appendages and are universal accross all types of arms. Is there enough effect to cover those in the 5 points and what then should it include?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Well' date=' it should probably be more than one hex since I can grab targets in more than one adjacent hex, which is tougher to buy than 1 hex Selective. I guess it's Any Area, but even then if you have too many hexes, based on STR, it makes no sense, just like:[/quote']

Good catch! In that case, it should be 1 Hex Area, Extended Area (the hex your in plus the surrounding six hexes), Selective. Now it's a +1 Advantage, doubling the END cost of your STR, and still allowing multiple grabs/punches/etc.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I liked the way it used to be done. 5 CP for one limb' date=' for every 5 CP x2, plus with two limbs you also gained certain game advantages, mostly +OCV in HtH combat.[/quote']

IIRC, that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

On the question of restrainable' date=' normal running is 'restrainable', normal strength is 'restrainable', if you want to think of it that way but you do not get a cost break as that is part of what they are. I'm not sure why extra limbs should ever be bought as restrainable: that, I'd have thought, is part of what they are.[/quote']

But the issue is the desire is to be able to apply STR and so on non-restrained.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

IIRC' date=' that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.[/quote']

Yup, confirmed, I reviewed and 10 per limb with +1 OCV up through 3rd edition and in 4th it changed to any number of limbs.

[casualplayer]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

IIRC' date=' that was never how Extra Limbs worked. Again IIRC, it was 10 points for each extra limb, and each one gave +1 OCV in HtH combat. This was all pre-4th Ed.[/quote']

 

Aha! I thought that was how Extra Limbs used to work.

 

What?

 

I think Extra Limbs, as a separate power, needs to go the way of the dodo. Emulate whatever your character's additional limbs can do with the appropriate powers instead, whether it's a minor boost to Climbing or a whole MP of grenades and additional STR when using the bonus limb.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I come back to the fact that you would have some vaguely similar benefits to being over-grown' date=' which is considered a 0 point value if a natural state. I don't mean to be a broken record, but I can't quite clearly find the dividing line.[/quote']

 

I can see where you are coming from, but it's kinda apples and oranges to me.

 

Being large MAY prevent you from being Grabed by a smaller foe, but it's ultimately GM's discretion land. Wonder Woman can has grappled with titans, in the literal sense. This despite the fact that their fingers are longer then she is tall...

[Lucius]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Now why does the character have more STR?

SFX Possiblities: Bigger Muscles, Denser Muscles, Magic, Increased Number Of Limbs...

 

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You keep saying this about Extra Limbs equaling Extra STRength, and it’s been repeatedly pointed out that this makes no sense. If I grew an extra pair of arms tomorrow identical to the two I have today, unless my back and legs changed at the same time I wouldn’t be able to life any more. I’d be able to lift and carry more OBJECTS but the total MASS I could lift would remain the same.

 

Where is this rule about using all limbs (rather than all default limbs) to get a full lift?

 

 

Yeah, that’s what I wanted to know. Bloodstone told us.

 

5ER, p34, second paragraph, last line. Or Ultimate Brick, p9 in the "Lifting Modifiers" section.

 

And this is not a new rule, as it's also on p20 of FRED.

 

 

So that’s the answer – it’s another stupid idea that got into the book.

 

By this reasoning, if I buy “Extra Limbs – Unlimited Number” I can’t exert full lifting STR unless I’m using an infinite number of limbs. Any finite number is infinitely less than the infinite number of pseudopods I am theoretically capable of extruding, so the penalty would be 5 X infinity on STR unless I’m using infinite limbs. I guess the only good thing in THIS silliness is that I can say any given extruded tentacle is actually composed of an “unlimited number” of hair-fine threads….

 

Why does this need to be any different from the 90 foot character who doesn't want to pay anything or take a Disad? Or, conversely, why should the 90 foot character be allowed to do that? That's the issue I have here.

.

 

In my opinion, they shouldn’t.

 

That stated' date=' the giant or the shrunken character comes with many abilities, as does the EL character. It's not clear why one has to pay "just" for having ELs while the giant/shrunken does not. Shouldn't the EL character really pay for "Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged" or the like? Which makes more mechanical sense.[/quote']

 

Yep. But since “Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged” is such a long name, can we shorten it – maybe to something like “Extra Limbs?”

 

To invert the question' date=' why get it for 5 points' effect?[/quote']

 

‘cause you can’t have it both ways.

 

The thread started with Schirr’s contention that Extra Limbs isn’t worth EVEN 5 pts. To argue that it should be worth more than that certainly does not advance the case that it’s worth less.

 

I don't doubt a level of utility with EL' date=' but the issue is that compared to the "state of being" argument on growth and shrinking, the issue is really clouded. [/quote']

 

Well, the problem here is another dumb idea that made into the books; the rule forbidding the use of Growth or Shrinking (or Density Increase) as Always On.

 

 

 

 

Premise: An Extra Limb should have all the default abilities that a normal limb has in the game mechanically. Then if it is different, the mechanics need to be modified from there. Extra Limbs doesn't do this, but it should if it were to be qualified to be on the same level as Growth and Shrinking.

 

Christopher Mullins

 

I’m not sure why you’re saying that “Extra Limbs doesn’t do this.”

 

I think that Extra Limbs is costed about right. It doesn't do much for a character' date=' but it does do [i']something[/i].

 

A couple of examples to illustrate my thoughts: I have a character who's basically a humanoid lizard-girl, with a tail, bought as Extra Limb, Limited manipulation. She can use it to tail-slap someone in combat for a surpise move, or to hit someone behind her without turning around. She can use it to push or pull things while her hands are full. That's about it; not much utility, but then, she did'nt pay much for it.

 

In my fantasy world, I've got an insect race with four arms (NOT bought with limited manipulation). They can do things like wield a two-handed sword and a shield, or quad-wield one-handed weapons, or dual-wield bows . . . of course, they still only get one primary hand and can only make one full-OCV attack per round normally. But they could, for instance, use a sword and a shield AND carry a lantern at the same time.

 

I think the versatility of extra limbs is worth the five points, but not so useful that it should cost more.

 

Rep for Zeropoint. The first line really says it all. Despite his name, I think he’s made my point for me.

 

It is a Power, but it can also be a SFX, and it can also be purely cosmetic.

 

If you want it to function purely as an extra limb with no further abilities, then the Power accurately reflects that functionality.

 

If you want to justify exceptional abilities based on having extra limbs, that can be either a SFX, or both the Power and SFX, depending on the specifics.

 

If you just want your character to have a tail or something, but it doesnt do anything or function like a normal limb, then its just cosmetics.

 

 

You can also do some very strange things with Extra Limbs that you wouldnt be able to do if there wasnt a base Power for it, because there is no other way to make a character that has extra manipulatory limbs that function just as if they were their normal arms.

 

Rook

 

So does Killer Shrike.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary would buy Extra Limbs, but needs to buy off the Disadvantage of not even having the first pair…

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Meanwhile, another 60 STR character, for the same 120 points, can make his own STR AE-radius (6"), Selective, 1 hex area accurate, 1/2 END, and hit everyone he wants within 6", all vs DCV 3 and spend only half as much END.

 

How is this a viable construct? I thought Accurate could only be applied to one hex areas' date=' not radius ones.[/quote']

 

There's a ruling out there somewhere that a Selective (or Non-Selective, I suppose) AoE can also purchase 1 hex area Accurate to allow each target within the area to be targeted at DCV 3.

 

Um... I don't thing normal strength is restrainable... you get to use it to break out of the restraints. Extra limbs would be restrainable if they couldn't manifest when the person was grabbed or tied up.

 

Agreed. If the STR were Restrainable, you could not use it at all when entangled or Grabbed. So my 60 STR character who buys all his extra STR "restrainable" has a 10 STR if grabbed, tied up or entangled.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Question - exactly what effect DO extra arms have? ... most of the posts I been seeing mention grabbing both being able to grab more targets and prevent having all limbs grabbed.

 

I know that foci that require the use of hands use up one (or two).

 

As I understand things, extra arms mostly are cover by buying other powers. Presumably most effects can vary from limb to limb based on what effects you want.

 

The idea seems to be that certain effects are caused simply by having appendages and are universal accross all types of arms. Is there enough effect to cover those in the 5 points and what then should it include?

 

I think there's a few examples of what extra limbs can reasonably do scattered throughout the thread.

 

You can be using two hands for a task, and still have a limb free. Examples:

 

- grapple with two hands and punch with a third

 

- weild a two handed weapon while defending yourself with a shield and carrying a lantern so you can see

 

- carry more smalll items than you could without extra limbs (very useful in some fantasy games to gather coins and gems before fleeing...)

 

As a number of posters have noted, utility is limited, but there are some benefits, which seems the appropriate use of a 5 point power.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I can see where you are coming from, but it's kinda apples and oranges to me.

 

Being large MAY prevent you from being Grabed by a smaller foe, but it's ultimately GM's discretion land. Wonder Woman can has grappled with titans, in the literal sense. This despite the fact that their fingers are longer then she is tall...

Just like Extra Limbs...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

..........................

Agreed. If the STR were Restrainable, you could not use it at all when entangled or Grabbed. So my 60 STR character who buys all his extra STR "restrainable" has a 10 STR if grabbed, tied up or entangled.

 

...which explains Wonder Woman...

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

In my opinion' date=' they shouldn’t.[/quote']

 

Addressed below.

 

Yep. But since “Fine Manipulation When Primary Limbs Engaged” is such a long name, can we shorten it – maybe to something like “Extra Limbs?”

 

Nomenclature is secondary; at least the rules description can be updated, then, regardless of name.

 

Of course I'd also argue that such picayune powers need more of a general definition rule than creating 9000 niche abilities.

 

‘cause you can’t have it both ways.

 

The thread started with Schirr’s contention that Extra Limbs isn’t worth EVEN 5 pts. To argue that it should be worth more than that certainly does not advance the case that it’s worth less.

 

Irrelevant. The question is, why does it have the value it has? Is it a pure wild-ass guess? Does it relate somehow to what you would purchase without such a power? If not, why not?

 

Well, the problem here is another dumb idea that made into the books; the rule forbidding the use of Growth or Shrinking (or Density Increase) as Always On.

 

A fair response and a legitimate indirect fix to Extra Limbs.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I think there's a few examples of what extra limbs can reasonably do scattered throughout the thread.

 

You can be using two hands for a task, and still have a limb free. Examples:

 

- grapple with two hands and punch with a third

 

- weild a two handed weapon while defending yourself with a shield and carrying a lantern so you can see

 

- carry more smalll items than you could without extra limbs (very useful in some fantasy games to gather coins and gems before fleeing...)

 

As a number of posters have noted, utility is limited, but there are some benefits, which seems the appropriate use of a 5 point power.

Considering the way a D&Dish Fantasy game might work, with the need to carry lots of loot, pick locks, hold lanterns, and so on, as you mention, I would argue that increased # of limbs is worth a lot MORE than 5 points (in fact, although 10 per limb seems excessive, something like +5 per x2 might make sense, and is pseudo-allowed already in terms of general precedents). Whereas in a supers game it might be worth no points.

 

Although I could probably just as easy argue ~1" of Stretching allows you to do all this, too, and mechanically is pretty much the same thing except for the reach - and if you basically gave Stretching an Advantage to represent manipulation abilities and a Limitation to represent that you actually don't get the reach/the SFX limitations that are not just -0, it ends up probably at 5 points. Coming back to my earlier question on rationalizing the value.

 

In fact, Stretching at a low scale seems to do everything EL would do, since basically it just as easily rationalizes each finger becoming a limb, so to speak. A minor Advantage would need to be applied for number of limbs and utility of fine control, where that is required, as mentioned in the paragraph above.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Just like Extra Limbs...

 

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

 

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

 

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.

I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph. Yes, we "can" although typically the 200 foot tall character (if not paying any points OR Disads for his size) still doesn't "fit through normal doorways" or "drive normal cars." Or a very strange GM or one who has a very particular game only would allow that. The rules don't state that a giant or miniature person doesn't interact with the environment as one - it just states that you don't have to pay points for being in that state.

 

By the same token, given the issues of having real-life extra limbs, I'm not sure if in many campaigns you wouldn't just "non-purchase" it like being 200 feet tall or 2 inches tall. According to the system's current logic. As some have stated, elmiinating the current ruling on natural state and size eliminates this issue entirely. (PS - not to suggest that means this is the right answer)

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

You can play a character 200 feet tall, without buying any penalty to his DCV, or any bonus to his strength, who can fit through normal doorways and drive normal cars. It just would not make sense to do so. There are system mechanics for the ability to grow, and templates for large (or small) characters.

 

Perhaps we could develop a temlpate for 'extra limbs'. I still feel happier just paying the 5 points and calling it doen.

PS - also, not sure, again, that a "template" for EL is required. My impression from the write-ups and examples I'm seeing is that people are purchasing EL with different intentions in mind - further fudging the issue improperly and pointing towards a need to determine whether EL is intended to confer a specific benefit (and therefore embedding that more properly in mechanics) or if it's just an environmental ability wherein the GM owns the interaction and the player owns simply "the state of being" and no specific benefit, in which case we get back to the giant/miniature state question.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

PS - also' date=' not sure, again, that a "template" for EL is required. My impression from the write-ups and examples I'm seeing is that people are purchasing EL with different intentions in mind - further fudging the issue improperly and pointing towards a need to determine whether EL is intended to confer a specific benefit (and therefore embedding that more properly in mechanics) or if it's just an environmental ability wherein the GM owns the interaction and the player owns simply "the state of being" and no specific benefit, in which case we get back to the giant/miniature state question.[/quote']

 

Well I agree that people buy extra limbs with different things in mind and so could 'build' them using other game elements in different ways. I mean one character might buy it as +2 to sleight of hand skill (sfx extra prehensile limb), but you can guarantee that AT SOME POINT the character will want to do something other than magic tricks and cheating at cards with that extra appendage - and can't because they did not think of the use to start off with and build for that.

 

However, if I buy the power 'Extra Limbs' I then have something to use the 'Power Tricks' roll on. I think it is probably worth it just for that.

 

Turning to the size issue, I'm not sure that I see it the same way: being BIG seems to me to be no advantage at all: you still need to buy the abilities that you want to have: if anything, we are looking at this the wrong way around: being big is the sfx of the 'Larger than normal' disadvantage.

 

EL, OTOH, does have advantages, and, as far as I can see no drawbacks - not even unusual looks: as it is a power that does not cost END the sfx are invisible