Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I think Extra Limbs' date=' as a separate power, needs to go the way of the dodo. Emulate whatever your character's additional limbs can do with the appropriate powers instead, whether it's a minor boost to Climbing or a whole MP of grenades and additional STR when using the bonus limb.[/quote']

How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

 

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

 

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

 

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

In fact' date=' Stretching at a low scale seems to do everything EL would do, since basically it just as easily rationalizes each finger becoming a limb, so to speak.[/quote']

How so? How does Stretching allow you to grapple with two limbs and punch with a third? How does Stretching allow you to hold more objects? etc. Are the two, limbs you already have built with Stretching?

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Well I agree that people buy extra limbs with different things in mind and so could 'build' them using other game elements in different ways. I mean one character might buy it as +2 to sleight of hand skill (sfx extra prehensile limb), but you can guarantee that AT SOME POINT the character will want to do something other than magic tricks and cheating at cards with that extra appendage - and can't because they did not think of the use to start off with and build for that.

 

However, if I buy the power 'Extra Limbs' I then have something to use the 'Power Tricks' roll on. I think it is probably worth it just for that.

 

Turning to the size issue, I'm not sure that I see it the same way: being BIG seems to me to be no advantage at all: you still need to buy the abilities that you want to have: if anything, we are looking at this the wrong way around: being big is the sfx of the 'Larger than normal' disadvantage.

 

EL, OTOH, does have advantages, and, as far as I can see no drawbacks - not even unusual looks: as it is a power that does not cost END the sfx are invisible

Lots of drawbacks to EL as a natural state - fitting in/potentially operating a car, social limitations (setting aside the 0 END and SFX invisible of course, no different than being a giant), sitting down potentially, etc..

 

I don't see the issue of "I didn't think of it in the beginning" as different from any other ability - a common enough problem.

 

Power Tricks is a good point - but if I have a foot with 20 toes, should I define that as a power???? More seriously, if I'm a natural giant, remember, I get no power tricks - and no real systemic way to buy "I'm a giant" to do so! Same problem in essence. But of course a non-issue for non-natural ELs.

 

But why would we rule this differently than the SFX of other powers which grant little odds and ends? Why would the Power Trick on an emulating power not be good enough?

 

Being big certainly has advantages in reach and interaction (depending, of course drawbacks there, too).

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

How so? How does Stretching allow you to grapple with two limbs and punch with a third? How does Stretching allow you to hold more objects? etc. Are the two' date=' limbs you already have built with Stretching?[/quote']

Why would it not allow those things, would be my question? It's a common enough stretching application. Note I do suggest a minor Advantage or Adder since the level of dexterity of one's ear is not clear, though it would be normally offset if they were applied as "Extra Limbs, No Reach Beyond Normal Personal Space."

 

(PS - stretching to hold, just stretch your hand around stuff, stretching to punch and grab easy enough, extend the finger and plunk away)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Just like Extra Limbs...

 

No, not like extra limbs. Not really.

 

It's baked into the mechanics: Grab only immobilizes 2 limbs by default. If you want to immobilize more, you have to Sweep Grab, which imposes cumulative penalties that may make the grab fail entirely.

 

Spider-man tries to Grab some normal thug and completely restrain him, he can do so at full OCV.

 

Spider-man tries the same thing against Doc Ok and he's at -4. If he succeeds with the first roll but fails the other two, Doc still has 4 limbs with which to beat on Spidey (though of course he does so at normal penalties for being Grabbed).

 

Having extra limbs is a definite edge mechanically.

 

Being large MAY be an edge. Like I said, GM discretion land here...

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Ah, okay, cool, I did not know that.

 

So (in theory) EL is really sort of (in this case) paying for a -4 penalty to grab limbs (or -whatever depending on how that's written - in a hurry so not looking up, but if it varies with # of limbs it's really a strong argument against a flat fee for ELs but I assume it's a flat penalty, too)

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

And the Winner Is!!! Zornwil!!! (8^D)

 

I've been waitng and watching to see if someone would reach the conclusion I did.

 

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

 

So, it would seem my original question is answered.

 

What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?

 

Answer: It doesn't.

 

Unless someone else has something new to offer up as a unique mechanic that Extra Limbs grants.

 

Sometimes it's better to just shut up and let someone else answer than attempt to explain in a less articulate way. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

I'll expound later in a more detailed manner as to what I have learned from this thread about some of the assumptions of the Hero System. Until then, fire away! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

 

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

 

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

 

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?

 

Well, like most things in HERO I would build it according to what it can do, not what it is. If my extra limb(s) helps me climb it's a Restrainable bonus to my Climbing roll. If it lets me reach the top shelf it's a smidge of Stretching just for that limb. If my extra limbs let me do Sweep Grabs without penalty then it's CSLs for Sweep Grabs (such a sweet example.)

 

Oh yeah, I hate the Fine Manipulation adder for TK. Where I come from we buy a limitation No Fine Work for our TK if it's clumsy TK.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

The reason I did the 5 pts for the extra limbs was I thought it was pointed a bit high. 5pts became a comprimise to me, I allowed the +5pts to buy x2 extra limbs, and the advantage with haveing mutilples of 2 giving OCV pluses.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Why would it not allow those things' date=' would be my question?[/quote']

Because it isn't what Stretching does. You can't argue from mechanics and then claim that the SFX of Stretching gives you extra grabbing and holding and object manipulating capacity. Stretching gives extra reach, for HTH attacks, among other things. And you can gain some aspects of Indirect on your HTH Attacks, and you cen add momentum damage. That's it. You don't get extra carrying capacity, it doesn't allow you to brachiate while holding someone, it doesn't allow you to carry four people at once, etc.

 

Note I do suggest a minor Advantage or Adder...

What's the functional difference between a 5-point Adder to 0" of Stretching and a stand-alone 5-point power?

 

since the level of dexterity of one's ear is not clear,

"dexterity of one's ear"? Was this a typo?

 

though it would be normally offset if they were applied as "Extra Limbs, No Reach Beyond Normal Personal Space."

IMO, it send up a red flag when you have a limitation that a power can't be used for what it is. In this case, you've got Stretching without actually Stretching. I would have the same objection to Desolid, Not Through Solid Objects, Affected By Attacks Normally; or EB - Does No Damage or Knockback. We have a wide selection of different powers so we don't have to go through these contortions to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Well' date=' like most things in HERO I would build it according to what it can [b']do[/b], not what it is. If my extra limb(s) helps me climb it's a Restrainable bonus to my Climbing roll. If it lets me reach the top shelf it's a smidge of Stretching just for that limb. If my extra limbs let me do Sweep Grabs without penalty then it's CSLs for Sweep Grabs (such a sweet example.)

You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

 

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.

 

Oh yeah, I hate the Fine Manipulation adder for TK. Where I come from we buy a limitation No Fine Work for our TK if it's clumsy TK.

Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

 

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

Actually, it doesn't grant any such thing. If you want PSL's vs Sweep, buy them normally.

 

So, it would seem my original question is answered.

It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.

 

What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?

I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

 

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

 

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.

All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

 

Are you with me so far?

 

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Okay Phil, I'll give a chance to explain it to me so that my thick headed feeble mind can understand. (8^D)

 

If I want to grab two separate targets, one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?

 

Do I purchase Extra Limbs?

Or something else?

 

I really want to know.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[casualplayer]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

How? Considering the first two limbs are not built with powers, how would you build a third, fourth, etc.?

 

We have powers for different things because they are different. EL is not the same as Stretching, or STR, or AoE STR, or TK, or anything else.

 

5 points and you're done. What is to be gained from making it more complicated? Do you really want a VPP to be able to hang from something while keeping two hands free, etc.?

 

Would you also like to get rid of the Fine Manipulation Adder for TK, and build it with other powers? How?

 

You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

 

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.

 

 

Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

 

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

 

Now that I know what you want (extra limbs with full human arm capability (and limitations)) it's fairly easy. 1 hex AE: Selective, No Range, limited to however many limbs you have in addition to the 2 that the vanilla character gets for "free." I know it cranks up the END cost of STR usage, but I certainly burn more END when I am doing activities that use two arms than just one; stands to reason that 2+ limbs doing work would use more END. I know it gets cost prohibitive for Grond-ish Bricks, but they have been getting off cheap for years to be able to Grab-Smash!, sometimes multiple people at once. I know it's more design work, but let's not confuse the simplicity of Extra Limbs with elegance.

 

Extra Limbs is one of those powers that ramrods SFX down your character's throat, kinda like Armor. And, kinda like Armor, Extra Limbs is a kludgy shortcut that should be dropped off and discarded like a lizard's tail.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

If I want to grab two separate targets' date=' one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?[/quote']

Irrelevent. If this is what you want to do, AE Selective STR, or PSLs with Sweep Grab is probably the way to go. Extra Limbs will not do it.

 

If your grab someone with both hands, and continue to use both hands to maintain your grab, while then grabbing someone else with two more hands, Extra Limbs will serve well. But this has already been said before.

[Lucius]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.

 

I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

 

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

 

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.

All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

 

Are you with me so far?

 

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

 

Very well put!

 

I'd say the biggest jump is going from zero to one. With no arm or hand, you're not capable of grabbing, holding, or generally manipulating anything except in crude ways (yes, I've seen people who can do almost anything with their feet that I can with my hands. Such people are basically using feet AS hands and wouldn't count as having "zero" manipulatory appendages.)

 

Not as great, but still significant, is the difference between one and two. Now you can hold an object with one hand and manipulate it with the other.

 

But as you add limbs, you're likely to find you get "diminishing returns." When you get up to, say, 12 limbs, the difference of adding a 13th one probably seems miniscule. How many objects are you likely to need to hang onto at one time? Didn't you ever hear of POCKETS?

 

And perhaps the explanation for why Extra Limbs is so cheap, as well as for why it doesn't "scale," is that the designers felt that the actual point of diminishing returns was that low - that it wasn't worth much to add a 3rd limb, and worth nothing at all to add more beyond that.

 

Now, I happen to disagree with that assesment. Personally, I think 5 pts is too much for a single prehensile tail, and too little for "all the tentacles I care to manifest at a given moment." But if I were setting up the cost structure I'd probably still have an "absolute" level where I say "beyond this point, you can have as many limbs as you need; buy this for example if you want a creature that can extrude an unlimited number of manipulatory pseudopods."

 

Now, apparently Schir1964 disagrees in the other direction. I don't think he can possibly have overlooked what we keep telling him, that Extra Limbs allows us to, well, have extra limbs - to hang from the helicopter by my tail, hold my two-handed sword ready to use in two hands, and dial 911 and holler "HELP!" into my cell phone with the other pair of hands. It's just that he doesn't regard that as being worth any points at all; to him, you reach the "point of diminishing returns" as soon as you pass two.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Ah, okay, cool, I did not know that.

 

So (in theory) EL is really sort of (in this case) paying for a -4 penalty to grab limbs (or -whatever depending on how that's written - in a hurry so not looking up, but if it varies with # of limbs it's really a strong argument against a flat fee for ELs but I assume it's a flat penalty, too)

 

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

 

A Penalty Skill Level vs Sweep would allow the character to offset penalties against his own OCV when he undertakes a Sweep maneuver. This is not the action which was described. The action which was described was a different character Sweeping the multi-limbed character, and discovering he needed to take a penalty to target the extra limbs of the target. If you consider this build to be practical under the limits of Hero, please show us the math. Please ensure that it forces the attacking character to suffer the penalties of requiring a full phase, and dropping to half DCV, because he must use the Sweep maneuver to grab all six of Doc Ock's limbs. Also, ensure he has the option of Grabbing two of those limbs each phase and avoiding those penalties. Good luck creating this with "existing mechanics".

 

Even if you can, that won't solve the issue, of course. Even if I could build an Extra Limb some other way, why should I? I can build Armor out of PD, ED and Damage Resistance. Add in Costs END and I built a Force Field. Should Armor and Force Field be eliminated?

 

An Energy Blast, with Attack versus ECV and Invisible to Two Sense Groups is functionally equivalent to an Ego Attack, yet we retain Ego Attack as a separate power. And let's not get into how Transform can substitute for most exotic attack powers...

 

Okay Phil, I'll give a chance to explain it to me so that my thick headed feeble mind can understand. (8^D)

 

If I want to grab two separate targets, one in each hand, simultaneously with the same ease as one target, how do I build it?

 

Do I purchase Extra Limbs?

Or something else?

 

+5 STR only for maintaining one-handed grabs and +2 PSL's against Sweep penalties to Grab two targets. Unlike the character with Extra Limbs, however, now that you're holding two targets, you can't pull one of your target's wallets out of his pocket and check for identification, dial your cell phone to get the police to come and collect these miscreants, Punch or Grab a third opponent trying to rescue his colleagues, or any of the numerous other things you could have done if you had Extra Limbs. Those are a separate mechanic, you see

 

Now that I know what you want (extra limbs with full human arm capability (and limitations)) it's fairly easy. 1 hex AE: Selective' date=' No Range, limited to however many limbs you have in addition to the 2 that the vanilla character gets for "free." I know it cranks up the END cost of STR usage, but I certainly burn more END when I am doing activities that use two arms than just one; stands to reason that 2+ limbs doing work would use more END. I know it gets cost prohibitive for Grond-ish Bricks, but they have been getting off cheap for years to be able to Grab-Smash!, sometimes multiple people at once. I know it's more design work, but let's not confuse the simplicity of Extra Limbs with elegance.[/quote']

 

First off, STR already has No Range, so your solution shouldn't add a limitation for that. Now, let's look at your solution in action.

 

ForeArm has two extra limbs, plus two human arms. His Extra Limbs have Extra STR. He is fighting a group of Ninja. One Ninja rushes in and Grabs Forearm by surprise, pinning two limbs - the normal arms, not the Extra Limbs. He is standing directly in front of Forearm. Forearm uses his phase to Grab another ninja, who is standing to his left, in a different hex from the first ninja. He only uses one extra limb, since he's confident the -5 STR penalty won't be enough to give the Ninja a chance at breaking his grip.

 

A third ninja rushes in from Forearm's right side, and slashes at him with his sword.

 

Forearm: "I'll Disarm the Ninja with the sword."

 

GM: "How - you need a limb free."

 

Forearm: "My normal arms are held by Ninja #1, and one extra arm is holding Ninja #2. I'll use my second extra arm."

 

GM: "That won't work. Your two Extra Arms only have a one hex area. Ninja #3 isn't in the same hex that your first extra arm is holding Ninja #2 in, so you can't reach Ninja #3."

 

Of course, if there were four Ninja in a single hex, ForeArm would be able to grab all four with his two Extra Limbs in a single phase, with no penalty - even with his default limbs Grabbed. That seems a bit better than two Extra Limbs should allow, since two normal limbs couldn't have accomplished that feat. In other words, buying AoE STR doesn't get the same results as buying Extra Limbs.

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Irrelevent. If this is what you want to do, AE Selective STR, or PSLs with Sweep Grab is probably the way to go. Extra Limbs will not do it.

 

If your grab someone with both hands, and continue to use both hands to maintain your grab, while then grabbing someone else with two more hands, Extra Limbs will serve well. But this has already been said before.

You logic doesn't follow.

 

Why is grabbing one target with one limb and attacking another target with the other limb any different mechanically than Extra Limbs?

 

Let me ask it again another way.

 

I want to be able to do the same thing mechanically that Extra Limbs does, but with just my two natural arms. How do I build it?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

A Penalty Skill Level vs Sweep would allow the character to offset penalties against his own OCV when he undertakes a Sweep maneuver. This is not the action which was described.

Actually, it is the action I described. Some seem to want to change what I want to discuss. Just wanted to point this out.

 

The action which was described was a different character Sweeping the multi-limbed character' date=' and discovering he needed to take a penalty to target the extra limbs of the target.[/quote']

Realm of SFX as some others have already pointed out, just like Growth and Shrinking.

 

BTW: I'm not answering anyone else's questions until I get mine answered to my satisfaction. Once that's done, I'll spend as much time answering anyone's questions.

 

+5 STR only for maintaining one-handed grabs and +2 PSL's against Sweep penalties to Grab two targets.

Okay, now can I grab one target and attack another target?

If I can't, how is that built?

 

Unlike the character with Extra Limbs' date=' however, now that you're holding two targets, you can't pull one of your target's wallets out of his pocket and check for identification, dial your cell phone to get the police to come and collect these miscreants, Punch or Grab a third opponent trying to rescue his colleagues, or any of the numerous other things you could have done if you had Extra Limbs. Those are a separate mechanic, you see [/quote']

I'm only dealing with mechanics and two arm SFX right now. We'll get to that in a minute.

 

What are your answers to my other questions. A glimmer of light is penetrating my thick skull.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

 

Because it isn't what Stretching does. You can't argue from mechanics and then claim that the SFX of Stretching gives you extra grabbing and holding and object manipulating capacity. Stretching gives extra reach' date=' for HTH attacks, among other things. And you can gain some aspects of Indirect on your HTH Attacks, and you cen add momentum damage. That's it. You don't get extra carrying capacity, it doesn't allow you to brachiate while holding someone, it doesn't allow you to carry four people at once, etc.[/quote']

 

Shrug, I don't read Stretching as you do apparently. I'm not suggesting it gives extra STR (you have to buy that) but for the life of me I can't conceive of telling a character he can't stretch his hand out to hold more water or coins or what-not like a bucket or such. I also can't imagine telling a Stretcher he can't punch with his finger, if he has the STR. I don't see where such actions are prohibited by the description or where they intrude mechanically on anything else in the system.

 

What's the functional difference between a 5-point Adder to 0" of Stretching and a stand-alone 5-point power?

 

Because in this case the stand-alone 5-point power has only one mechanical aspect to it, as described above, yet is being used to do things like hold lots of items and other mechanical advantages which seem, to me, to be already covered by existing powers. In this example cited, one lifted straight from comics and TV, we are simply using Stretching the way it seems to already function, but depriving it of the additional reach aspects.

 

"dexterity of one's ear"? Was this a typo?

 

Not at all. If I have Stretching and I want to stretch my ear to do something, it begs the issue. Note that Stretching allows any body part to be stretched unless you limit it. It inherently supports a character reshaping his foot to be like a bowl if he so desires.

 

IMO, it send up a red flag when you have a limitation that a power can't be used for what it is. In this case, you've got Stretching without actually Stretching.

 

But I have it with all the mechanical effects of Stretching save distance. So I use the mechanic, the power name is irrelevant.

 

I would have the same objection to Desolid, Not Through Solid Objects, Affected By Attacks Normally; or EB - Does No Damage or Knockback. We have a wide selection of different powers so we don't have to go through these contortions to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

The question would be, why would these be proposed? It would strike me they are to achieve some mechanical aspect of Desolid or EB that is not part of the Limitations described. Interestingly enough, before reading your post, I proposed elsewhere "EB (whoops, I screwed up, should have been RKA!): Advantage: Penetrating; Limitations: No Damage (I did not say no KB but this would also be part of it actually, though I'd be more inclined to say that's a -0 since no damage essentially negates KB anyway) Except Penetrating." It was just an idea to allow for a Penetrating attack that only did BOD and had very limited risk of creating high BOD totals. You could mix and match but in this particular version there would also be no STUN, which may or may not be appropriate depending on the attack.

 

In the above case, I may have a character who wants the effects of EL but without the actual minuses desribed above to having limbs grabbed, for example. Which is an even weirder case because the mechanics of EL don't appear to support anything specific aside from some SFX or abilities that are typically "free" with other powers - pointing to its nature as a heavy SFX power not much removed from the vagaries of, say, Change Environment - or the environmental interactions and SFX of Stretching.

 

Is this the only right way to do EL? Absolutely not, of course. But it's an easy way to model the actual desired mechanical effects attributed above to EL, and is more specific in mechanical effects and limitations against value as well.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

You've avoided my question. What I want Extra Limbs to *do* is to grant me extra manipulatory limbs. I can do many things with my existing hands/arms, does that mean I need a VPP to model an arm?

 

I'm not claiming any bonus to Climbing from the 5-point EL. Climbing bonuses must be purchased separately like any other ability. Nor am I claiming any other power or construct, such as Stretching, Area Effect STR, Extra STR, CSL's for Grab or Sweep, etc.

 

 

Fine. But how would you build the ability to do *more* fine work (not at range) than your normal two arms would allow? (such as by having one or more extra limbs)

 

I want to hang from the branch of a tree, while dialing a number on my cell phone, keeping a struggling enemy Grabbed (whom I had already Grabbed earlier), and holding a fragile object. A simple existing power - Extra Limbs - lets me do that. I have yet to see a better way.

 

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103 (as a side note, I would still find Stretching as possessing these abilities I've stated normally, but that becomes increasingly a tangent to where I prefer to go with this discussion)

 

So does Stretching, with zero Lims or Advs, as is, my additions merely to make it "just like" one particular view of EL, one that seems to be what people most often are talking about mechanically (as goals do vary). Wrap my arm around the tree, call with the hand, other arm wrapped around the bad guy, and the other hand with a finger extended around the fragile object. You could argue against that, but I could also argue (though I would not in actual practice) that what you suggest is ridiculous even if you had Extra Limbs unless they were long and spindly enough to, well, um, stretch, and you had a solid INT and so on - it's not as if the rules describe the inherent limitations of the SFX.

 

All this conversation said, I don't recall if I've ever seen a PC with Extra Limbs in my games. It's always been SFX-based. Actually, wait, I think one person threw it into a VPP but in point of fact it was always unnecessary in deployment. Although I really like KS' write-up/character, I don't see the necessity of EL except for it granting the difficulty of having limbs restrained. It helps spell something out, but given all the other abilities that seems as easily described and as normal SFX.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Actually, it is the action I described. Some seem to want to change what I want to discuss. Just wanted to point this out.

 

Realm of SFX as some others have already pointed out, just like Growth and Shrinking.

 

Characters who are grown or Shrunk can still be Grabbed and have their limbs immobilized. I'm looking for a mechanic that allows this for certain, not an SFX that the GM may or may not agree should grant the ability at no cost.

 

Okay, now can I grab one target and attack another target?

If I can't, how is that built?

 

It is built by purchasing Extra limbs. The fact that there is no other mechanic for this function indicates that Extra limbs does something unique which is not duplicated by other mechanics.

 

To support your assertion there is another build under existing rules, I need you to show me how to build it without Extra Limbs.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

And the Winner Is!!! Zornwil!!! (8^D)

 

I've been waitng and watching to see if someone would reach the conclusion I did.

 

The only mechanic that Extra Limbs actually grants is PSL vs Sweep driven by a very narrrow SFX.

 

So, it would seem my original question is answered.

 

What mechanic does Extra Limbs offer that is "unique" that warrants it being a separate power?

 

Answer: It doesn't.

 

Unless someone else has something new to offer up as a unique mechanic that Extra Limbs grants.

 

Sometimes it's better to just shut up and let someone else answer than attempt to explain in a less articulate way. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

 

Bear in mind, as contradictory as it may sound, I'm not against the short-hand of an "Extra Limbs" ability. I just think it should be clear and as appropriate explained as to what it is built on.

 

To this end, if we see this as really primarily that mechanic, then it's an ideal Talent.

[zornwil]

Re: Analysis: Extra Limbs - SFX or Power?

 

Actually, it doesn't grant any such thing. If you want PSL's vs Sweep, buy them normally.

 

 

It seems to me it's been answered several times, but you haven't understood it for whatever reason.

 

 

I don't know how else to answer your question other than what has already been said several times on this thread. I don't expect repeating the same thing to convince you, so how 'bout this tack:

 

Is "Missing one arm" worth points as a Physical Limitation? Is "Missing both arms" worth more points as a Physical Limitation?

 

All other things being equal, a person with two arms can do more than a person with one arm.

All other things being equal, a person with one arm can do more than a person with no arms.

 

Are you with me so far?

 

It is such a stretch to claim that a person with three arms could do more than a person with two arms? Or that a person with four, five, six, or more could do even more? The ability to do more, in HERO, costs some points.

 

edit - updating prior recent posts in this thread to indicate my opinion has been significantly revised as per post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1203989&postcount=103

 

You're speaking logically about real-world interactions - not about mechanical game interactions.

 

The game itself denies your next-to-last sentence flat-out - there is no greater value assigned to having 4, 5, 6, or 50 million appendages. Logically, I absolutely agree 6 arms are better than 3 - but due to how HERO works, it assigns no greater value. Why? Because it doesn't give any greater ability to extra limbs than a lack of restrainability, the CV bump indicated (which is related to that), and vague SFX around that. It basically is saying "if you want the greater functionality of lots of arms, define it BEYOND this ability because this ability is only about a narrow set of benefits."

 

Similarly, I can easily define my character to have no arms - but no Disad, indicating he is thoroughly fine however that happens to work out. Even without TK or anything else. Because physical attributes only have mechanical meanings and environmental interactions are left to GM control and joint GM-player imagination.