Nazi Zeppelin Base

[Vondy]

I would like to point out that the Uradel/Briefadel class, as well as the German monarchy, was done away with in 1920 as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Certainly there were several "Vons" in the Nazi heirarchy, but they weren't properly nobles any longer. Further, a goodly percentage of the Uradel and Briefadel class considered the Nazis scum. Kaiser Willhelm II refused to endorse Hitler and left Germany in the latter 30's so that he wouldn't be used as a puppet symbol for the Nazi regime [hence he's buried in Denmark]. His wife was reported, after having met the Fuhrer, to have told her servants: "open the windows and get the stench out!"

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the character, but be aware that Nazis and Prussians weren't the same group of people, and know that he would essentially be the product of a propaganda stereotype more than he was a product of historical accuracy. He is a "classic bit", however.

 

That being the case you might want to go here http://www.fordanimation.com/ and click on the 2d art section. Some of the concept zeppelins he came up with for the Crimson Skies game - that didn't get used - totally rock.

[Token Female]

Testing, because this forum has dumped two completed posts already.

 

IF this goes through, I'll try posting my actual post. I'm really frustrated because I've gone through two attempts to post, only to be told that I'm not logged in or registered, when, in fact, I AM.

 

Arghh!

 

Mrs. Monster

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

1) Why not? A vaccuum is certainly lighter than any gas, so at least theoretically it should work. (The practical problems of a vaccuum chamber 500 feet long might be another issue entirely.)

 

A vacuum is not lighter than any gas; while I don't know how a vacuum-'filled' container works in water, I believe it sinks. Again, I may be wrong.

 

However, when you're talking about atmospherics, a 'lack of air' does not provide buoyancy; in fact, it guarantees the reverse. While buoyancy is a matter of the atmosphere INSIDE the object being of lower pressure than the atmosphere OUTSIDE the object, a complete lack of ANYTHING inside the object means that ... you have Just The Object. Yes, the object desires to seek its natural pressure equivalency, thus desiring to rise; the fact that there's ZERO pressure on the inside means that nature's simply trying to fill it, not shove it into the stratosphere.

 

Again, I don't know all the specific details, but I'm a) absolutely certain this will not work for an airship, and half certain this doesn't work for liquids, i.e. water. Somebody feel free to correct me on the latter ...

[AlHazred]

Wow, I sit on the list and worry that I'm posting too often and "shouting people down." I do other things for a few days, and the list fills like Saddam Hussein's ego on Dictator Appreciation Day...

 

Good ideas. Can't get to them all while I'm at work, but a few points:

 

1) I've got a book called Inside the Hindenburg which has some decent cutaway paintings of the interior. I visited the Zeppelin Museum in Friedrichshaven last month while visiting my relatives, and I can vouch for the accuracy of the drawings -- they're spookily well done. It's a short book (oversized, only 32 pages) but Borders had it on sale for $1.99 and I couldn't resist.

 

2) I've spent some time on Luft '46, which is a great resource on Nazi "paper projects," that is, plane designs that either never got off of the drawing table, or were only produced in small experimental quantities and never made it to production. There's some great stuff in there. I've given the players a V/TOL plane from a design from that site. The rocket planes I'll be using are the Messershmitt ME 183s, which were gliders that had almost 8 minutes of rocket power. They were designed for tactical interception and home defense, and were never meant for typical battlefield conditions. The idea I had is, they could be used as throwaway interceptors, deployed as gliders; when they get far enough away from the Zeppelin, they ignite their rocket packs and jet over to the heroes' plane and engage them. After 7 and a half minutes of combat, they lose powered thrust and glide to a landing. Once there, the Baron really doesn't care what happens to them. Maybe the pilots take suicide capsules, or they've been poisoned and need to take an antidote every day, or the planes themselves self-destruct when the rocket charge is done; I haven't worked out the Baron's personality in that much detail yet.

 

3) Regarding the vacuum dirigible, what Wyrm Ouroboros said. I'm and engineer, and I'm running a pulp superscience game for physicists, computer technicians and mechanics. I know what I can get away with, and I know what I can't.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

A vacuum is not lighter than any gas; while I don't know how a vacuum-'filled' container works in water, I believe it sinks. Again, I may be wrong.

You are wrong. A vaccuum is the (near) absence of all matter. Gases such as helium or hydrogen are comprised of matter. It's obvious to anyone that nothing weighs less than something. Hydrogen and helium don't provide lift because of some magical anti-gravitic properties, but because the heavier substances in our atmosphere like oxygen and nitrogen force them upwards just as water pushes an inflated inner tube back to the surface. In essence humanity lives at the bottom of an ocean of air.

 

Now there would admittedly be tremendous technical problems with building a vaccuum-lifted airship. The shell would need to be very strong to resist the atmospheric pressure, just as deep sea submersibles need to withstand tremendous pressures; in fact it's unlikely that any currently known substance would be strong enough without being absurdly heavy. But such advanced materials would not be unfeasible in a world with superheroes. Perhaps a carbon fiber or other high-tech material would provide sufficient strength without being too heavy. But an vaccuum airship is at least theoretically possible even in the real world. In fact, this idea is not new and has been kicked around for decades. The real problem rests with the fact that in order to be strong enough to withstand atmospheric pressure the shell would need to be very heavy. In order to generate enough lift to get off the ground with such a heavy shell the ship would need to be very large, which of course makes it heavier still. Right now it's a Catch-22. But someday we might invent something light and strong enough to make them a reality, in the meantime we can use unobtainium or absurdium.

[AlHazred]

You're absolutely right. A vacuum weighs nothing at all. Thus, there's nothing pushing against the envelope to keep it "inflated;" very little pressure is required to crush it like a beer can.

 

I've seen a video of a demonstration (can't find it online anymore), where a steel drum was filled with steam and then unceremoniously dropped into a kiddy pool filled with cold water without letting the steam out. The steam lost it's heat, becoming water and creating a large vacuum in the drum. The 55-gallon steel drum was crushed instantly.

 

I'm not averse to creating the superscience necessary to come up with material strong enough to make this possible. But if I do, the bad guys are going to have some incredibly tough body armor...

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by AlHazred

I'm not averse to creating the superscience necessary to come up with material strong enough to make this possible. But if I do, the bad guys are going to have some incredibly tough body armor...

And this is bad because...?

 

Such a ship would probably need a very complex latice of internal supports, and would be very large. Of course, a kilometer long (or larger) airship would be pretty cool IMO. (Of course, I'm also a big fan of 30's & 40's pulp fiction like Doc Savage and The Avenger.) Considering WWII-era battleships were only about 600 feet long, the most plausible reaction from the heroes when they finally see this thing would be "Oh. My. God." It should be like the first time you saw Star Wars and realized just how huge the Imperial cruisers were.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Nazi Zeppelin Base

 

Originally posted by AlHazred

I've been doing some work on my Golden Age Superheroes/Pulp Heroes campaign, and I've decided to make one of the main villains a Nazi mad scientist/Prussian noble whose purpose is to keep the heroes busy at home so that they don't go to Germany to fight. I thought it would be cool to give him an interesting base, but the whole "German castle" thing didn't work because it needed to be in the US.

 

Then, last time I visited Germany, we went to the Zeppelin museum. I've decided to give him a "castle" in the sky -- a giant zeppelin! I figure his ancestral castle was destroyed during World War I, and he rebuilt using "high technology". I've even gotten inspiration from the SHIELD helicarrier and Baron Wulfenbach's dirigible/castle in Girl Genius.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to make it interesting? I mean, I could just take the zeppelin from The Ultimate Vehicle and upgun the Size a notch or three, but I'd like to make it unusual. Any thoughts? What about pictures I can use as inspiration?

 

How about instead of JUST a Zepplin, how about a rigid-gas-bag launching platform, sort of a flying aircraft carrier... HUGE, with a couple of Zepplins and a squadron of hot Nazi babes flying messershmidts... and just for fun, throw in a cloud generator that conceals the base...

[Logan D]

The Highwind

 

If you've ever played Final Fantasy 7, I direct you to the Highwind airship for an excellent example of "steampunk" airship design. And it's a _beautiful_ ship as well.

 

It might be a little too advanced for a Nazi era campaign though. I don't know what keeps it aloft, because while it does have obvious gas envelopes all over, they don't appear to be large enough in proportion to realistically to the rest of the ship to lift it. Of course we _are_ talking about a _fantasy_ world here, so the Highwind probably works via differnt principles. Maybe they have some type of gas that has greater lifting properties. Or hydrogen/helium iteself works different in that universe.

 

Nevertheless, you could possibly take some design cues from it. It has much of the right "feel" to it, IMHO.

 

Alternately, a Highwind style ship might make a really cool _hero_ base ship.

 

Imagine if the heros get their own airship and get into a aerial battle with the villain's airship/base. You could have the infiltrators, non-flying bricks and martial artist types being dropped onto the airbase for fighting inside, while an aerial battle rages outside with Nazi fighters and flying heros dogfighting it out and the two airships trading machinegun fire trying to shoot each other's lifting envelopes to hell.

 

That could be quite an exciting final battle!

[AlHazred]

The Highwind is nice. Would be nice to find wallpaper-sized scans, but I guess tiny thumbnails will have to do for those of us who haven't played the game (which includes my entire crew.)

 

If I posit Trebuchet's vacuum lift, and superstrong materials, it becomes doable. Most of the structures are then housed in the pods, and "takeoff/landing" is done with the aid of hooks lowered from the structure.

 

Hmmmm...

[Cyberknight]

Not quite as pretty

 

But more in-period, you might take a look at the USS Akron and USS Macon. They were rigid airships designed as flying aircraft carriers, with 5-6 fighters each. The concept seemed to work pretty well, other than a bad habit of breaking up when flown into / through thunderstorms. A good Google search can find all the photos you need. I seem to recall a line-drawing of a follow-on class that would've been even larger, and carried a full squadron of scout planes.

 

Cyberknight

[Logan D]

Originally posted by AlHazred

The Highwind is nice. Would be nice to find wallpaper-sized scans, but I guess tiny thumbnails will have to do for those of us who haven't played the game (which includes my entire crew.)

 

Ask and ye shall receive!

 

It's a differenet angle, but between this and the other pic, you should have no trouble spotting all the major design features and such.

[AlHazred]

Thanks, LoganD! Sad that there aren't any larger scans available; looks like a lot of work went into a memorable vessel.

 

I'd attempted to find more online about the Akron a few weeks ago, but the site must have been down. The Navy has a great deal of info on it's historical site.

 

I found the following link particularly good: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h80000/h80769.jpg

 

May have to see whether I can manipulate the image in Photoshop. My artistic talents are slightly inferior to most stick-figure artists, but we shall see...

[Cyberknight]

You might have better luck looking for info on the Acron's sister ship, USS Macon.

 

http://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/gallery/macon.html

 

http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Sparrowhawks%20of%20the%20Macon.htm

 

I hope those links came across correctly.

 

Cyberknight

[Prometheus]

A few suggestions for the details on the Zeppelin:

 

1) Observation Deck- A reasonably sized room with a glass (or other, lighter, suitably transparent material) bottom. A dais or scaffolding would keep the crew safe, but a stray bullet or an unexpected topple during a fight would add some nice drama.

 

2) Aerial Harpoons- Every floating fortress needs a tractor beam. A good way to coax the character onto the zeppelin (cripple their transportation) while giving them the means to do so (the line itself).

 

3) Cloud Cover- It's been mentioned before, but I think it needs to be stressed. A couple of Dry Ice Fog Generators will keep the heroes from swarming the base the second it floats into town.

 

4) Posh Interior- No Baron would dream of taking to the skies without velvet wallpaper, a grammaphone, or some expensive objets d'art.

 

5) Air Force- An all female squadron (the Valkyries , of course) that maybe double as the Baron's personal guard. The rocket propelled planes sounds better for the Baron's last ditch escape sytem.

 

6) Teutonic Sounding Name- Don't call it the Argo. Depending how cliched you want to get, don't settle for anything not named after a historical Prussian figure or that doesn't include "Wulf" in it.

[AlHazred]

Thanks, Cyberknight! Good links, all. I keep waffling between revolutionary designs and traditional ones.

 

Originally posted by Prometheus

1) Observation Deck

 

Nice. I'll use it. I actually have a "breaking glass" sound effect that could come in handy...

 

2) Aerial Harpoons

 

Good idea. I'll play with it a little and see if I can put a superscience spin on it.

 

3) Cloud Cover

 

The PCs first adventure involved an invisible plane that had sonic cannons on board, with which the bad guys destroyed buildings. I have a feeling we know where the villains got that technology.

 

4) Posh Interior

 

I'm going to go with classic Continental styling. Think luxury train car; the idea is to include all the touches the Baron would have at home.

 

5) Air Force

 

Nice. I'll steal this one too.

 

6) Teutonic Sounding Name

 

I'm thinking of naming it Luftschloss Falkenburg. It's German for "Air Castle Falkenburg."

[BoloOfEarth]

USS Macon

 

National Geographic had an excellent article on the discovery of the wreck of the Macon, including some photos and a cutaway showing locations of crew areas and the airdock for the planes. It was in the January 1992 issue.

 

My personal favorite was some of the history, like when the captain of the Macon sent his planes out to locate the cruiser USS Houston (President Roosevelt was aboard) and drop off newspapers. Of course, since the planes were taking off and "landing" at the Macon, there was no need for landing gear, but they attached a fuel tank to the belly of each. Now, imagine what the crew of the Houston thought when two planes appear, far from land and with what look like bombs on their bellies, and make a low pass over the ship...

 

Anyway, the crew quarters were located along each side toward the bottom. There was a secondary control room in the lower aft fin, a walkway down the center bottom, and at least one hatch on top. The Macon had propellers that swiveled 90 degrees, making it the largest vehicle to take off and land vertically, and carried 5 biplanes that latched onto a hook on the underside and could then be lifted inside.

 

In the design, don't forget water and fuel tanks throughout. If you're going for realism, it would need ballast to maintain stability.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Breaking glass, vast winds immediately thereafter...

 

Air Harpoons: I'm not entirely certain when the US Navy began using steel/metal cables, but an ultralight metal cable with the spring-loaded harpoons (goes through the plane, then the prongs go *snap* out) would make them tough bastards. Hmmm -- titanium cables... ha! Better yet, little 'seperation' charges. Picture this: a thick-shafted harpoon, but the metal of it is crosshatched. If/when it penetrates the airplane, an electrical signal is sent down the wire. First, a small charge at the base (where the cable is attached) blows, and the harpoon is 'left' inside the plane. Set off by the separation charge, a short (3-second) fuse runs inside the body of the harpoon, then to set off a 'solid explosive' inside the harpoon -- the first plastic explosive, perhaps. The 'scoring' means that the body of the harpoon will shatter along those lines, into razor-sharp jagged diamonds that chop apart everything in the ship.

 

To demonstrate this, of course, you simply MUST use a bomber -- perhaps during the aforementioned ball, they 'drift' over a city and a bomber (more guns on it, see?) comes up and attacks the Stinking Nazi Airship. The characters see the line snake out, harpoon at the fore, and the Baron says, "Oh, this will be good; pay attention, now." Then the Baron gives a moment-by-moment description of what happens (i.e. describes the harpoon's workings) as the thing hits the plane just behind the wings ... then blows the bomber in half when it detonates.

 

Originally posted by AlHazred

I'm thinking of naming it Luftschloss Falkenburg. It's German for "Air Castle Falkenburg." [/b]

And that's a very good name.

[dbsousa]

I think you should use harpoons, but instead of trailing explosives, let them trail a long metal wire. At first, the heroes think there was a grappling accident. But when lightning strikes the target three times in the next few seconds, they know that is no grappling weapon...

[dbsousa]

OK, I have been messing with campaign cartographer...

[AlHazred]

I've settled on a name for my villain. After watching a discussion of recycling characters, I've decided to recycle one from an old Cyberpunk game, who was later recycled into a Vampire game. Now he has another lease on life: Baron Wolfgang von Shreck (or, loosely translated, "wolf-trail from fear"). He'll be a scientific genius with a Gadget VPP, figure 90 point or so pool.

 

Luftschloss Shreck; I like the sound of that. Plans forming, Campaign Cartographer calling, plots thickening...

 

I think I'll be using those Cloud Generators after all, with some Sack AS-6 airplanes. These were propeller-driven planes with an important quirk: their wings were constructed to form a circle. I'm thinking: foo fighter outbreak...

[Token Female]

Aeroplanes, airships, the "flying trapeze" etc.

 

Here’s the FOURTH time I’ve written this out. Pardon me if I’m repeating information given by someone else already, but I haven’t had time to read all the new posts. (Yes, this site/program has eaten what I’ve written three times, claiming I wasn’t logged in; I *had* been logged in. My INT must be running low, because it took me that long to figure out that I should just write it in Word, and then paste it into the reply space. At least this time I can just copy it and try again if it gets eaten!)

 

So—the main things that I think haven’t been covered are a few specific items from the big US rigid airships.

 

Firstly, has anyone mentioned yet that they were aircraft carriers? Five Curtis C-9 Sparrowhawks could fit inside the hangar in the envelope. To drop an aeroplane, the ’plane was picked up from it’s hangar berth with a crane. There was a metal loop on top of the ’planes and the crane had a hook-like structure. It was then swung into position over the hangar opening, lowered to just below the ship, the plane engine was started up, and then the ’plane was released from the hook. To retrieve a ’plane, the “flying trapeze†(as the apparatus was known) was lowered. The ’plane matched speed and direction with the ship, and maneuvered its loop onto the hook. When it was caught properly, the ’plane cut its engine, and the trapeze raised it back into the hangar, and replaced it in its proper location. Truly ingenious, and according to what I’ve read, much safer and easier than ground landings and takeoffs.

 

Secondly, the basic setup of the internal compartments from bow to stern was: Control car (below & outside the envelope); Officer’s cabins (sleeping 1-4 men each, I believe); Group areas (galley, I’m not sure what else); hangar; Crew quarters (bunkrooms for at least 8 men each, possibly greater). There were two gangways (one each side) on the lower portion of the ship, and one running along to top of the ship for access and maintenance. The ships had a capacity for roughly 100 crew. In both the crashes, they were actually carrying around 75-80 men. Following the Akron crash (73 lives lost) flotation devices were kept on the Macon, and when she went down, only 3 lives were lost.

 

Thirdly, they held 12 gasbags, one behind another, in the upper half or 2/3 of the envelope. These ships were designed so that roughly half the gasbags could be compromised and the ships could still maintain lift. If they lost as few as three from the same front or rear section, however, the ship was in trouble, due to the natural effect of the still buoyant end rising, and the non-buoyant end dropping. This is apparently what did in the Akron. The Macon had rings (the round, body shaping sections of the frame) which were insufficiently attached to the fins to survive a storm. As you can see, structure and engineering can be made to play as necessary for your gaming needs. Say, a critical hit on a structural element might cause all kinds of damage, as bad or worse than simply hitting a single gasbag!

 

Finally, there was a secondary control car located in the lower fin at the rear of the ship. Decide beforehand if you use this whether or not that car can override the main control car, or vice versa. Could be handy for PC’s trying to take over the ship. After the R101 (I think) this was probably a consideration in the event of the breakup of the ship.

 

Oh yeah, two significant events in the annals of the US airship program. Before (and causal of) the better “low mooring†techniques, a sudden tailwind tipped the Los Angeles vertically. It literally “stood on its head†as it was moored only by the nose of the ship. One man died, others were injured, I believe. Of course, while lots of stuff was literally “bolted down†many smaller items weren’t, and they made darn certain THAT didn’t happen again! Of course, your baddie (or your PCs if they gain control) might not know about that. Great special effects potential. The other event was one that became famous in our own game, (only we turned it into full year long cliff-hanger). One of the ships was being grounded by a ground crew—lots of men holding on to many, many ropes. Another unexpected wind-shift, and higher than ideal amount of buoyancy caused the ship to suddenly rise into the air—three men didn’t let go immediately, and were hauled into the sky along with the ship. Two fell more than a hundred feet to their deaths. The third managed to hold on for over an hour (might’ve been two), until he could be winched up. (That rope was not designed to be winched, so they had to do a little on the spot engineering.) Flying from NY to LA is nothing; man were HIS arms tired!

 

I love to talk airships, particularly the US rigid airship program. So many people are entirely unaware of its existence. I can recommend the books “Sky Ship†or “Up Ship!â€, as well as the websites that I have seen in a quick scan of the messages. I am on a messaging list for fans of LTA (lighter than air) craft, and if you have any questions that you can’t find answered elsewhere, I can recommend connecting to a group like that.

 

Thanks so much,

Laura B. (who is tired of people assuming I’m nothing *more* than the token female of our group and who is also married to Mr. Monster who frequents this board)

[Cyberknight]

Anoter airship fan?!

I really wish the Navy had built one of the 'second generation' zepp/carriers...as I understand it, the design would've been 925' long and carried 9-12 aircraft including torpedo bombers.

 

Another thing that's more in line with this thread, though, would be the possibility that this Nazi Zep would have air-search radar. The early radar antennas somewhat resempled bedsprings, and were rather bulky to be fitted on ships, but you could hide a *huge* array in the structure of a zeppelin, and create a (for the time) frighteningly effective "AWAC".

 

Rambling on...if anyone's into 'alternate history', imagine the impact one of those hypothetical rader-carrying zepps could've hade if it were cruising 250 miles or so from Pearl Harbor on 7 December '41.

 

Yep, time for more meds.

 

Cyberknight

[Vondy]

I'm a zeppelin nut. I'm including a knockoff of the Macon in a short story I'm writing.

 

I picked up the January 1992 National Geographic at half price books yesterday. It has a wonderful article on the Macon with a fold-out illustration that shows a cut away of the airship itself and a detail of the fighter-traspeez that was used to release and retrieve the sparowhawks.

 

There's also an interesting anecdote about the first time the pilots removed the landing gear and put on an extended fuel tank for missions over the water. The tanks apparently looked like bombs and when they buzzed a ship President Roosevelt was visiting the captain thought the president was under attack.

 

One of the graphics shows a scale comparison with a 747, which could fit inside the Macon.

 

Wow!

[AlHazred]

... I'm picturing squads of Rocket-Pack toting Waffen Ubersoldaten, the Baron's specially-treated supersoldiers, carrying small Rocket Guns as they fly in formation in front of a zeppelin in the clouds...

 

... I'm seeing a huge zeppelin, it's envelope constructed of translucent superstrong aerogels, dumping mist out of ports on the side as it conceals itself in the clouds; several large Flying Wing aircraft wait in its hanger to release their explosive burdens on a hapless American public...

 

... The Baron sips wine as he ponders his latest instructions, received from the Enigma II operator. Behind him, rocket-soldiers train for the coming day when America enters the war...