What is awsome?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Base Maker: has bought an insane amount of bases that do not exists yet because he uses his transformation power to bring them forth. I felt that he should by the bases so no argument could be posed but since its his power to build them fully equipted and personalized. I bought Transform to manifest them into exisitence!

[Lucius]

What is Awesome?

 

I'm having problems accepting this business of simply turning into a Computer with Multiform. If that were the case' date=' you could just put yourself into an Automaton.[/quote']

 

Given that it seems such a STRANGE maneuver that leads to so many questions, I can understand your position.

 

However, Steve Long has stated that it is indeed possible to use Multiform that way. Maybe he didn't realize the can he was opening had worms in it.

 

Also, for the sake of clarification, I’m not trying to turn my character into a “computer.” I’m trying to turn her into an AI in mechanical terms (pardon the expression) but the SFX is changing into a completely immaterial Spirit Form.

 

Very True but unlike automation you are not immune to mental powers and thus it still balances plus indirect attacks could it the AI directly.

 

Mental powers definitely, especially if we’re ignoring the “class of mind” rule. Otherwise, still definite if they hit the right class of mind. But I’m not so sure about indirect attacks. If the AI doesn’t even exist in a Physical aspect (presumably only having Mental and possibly Spiritual existence in Hero’s meta-cosmoloy) I’m not sure any physical (including energy) attack can target it, and I’m not sure why Indirect would allow it to, any more than an Indirect mental attack can target an automaton.

 

Affects real world may be necessary depending on the GM or transdimensional if you're implying that you are not interacting with the real world thus unable to be harmed. If you can be attacked then none of these advantages would be needed!

 

So you’re invoking what seems to be a general “meta-rule.” The principle that if a character possesses “the property of being immune to most physical and energy attacks, including ones such as Drains and No Normal Defense attacks (whatever word we apply to that property and whatever SFX justify it)” then an expensive advantage is needed on that character’s attacks. If hiding behind a Force Wall, you need Indirect; if lurking in an entirely different space-time continuum, you need Interdimensional; if using the power Desolidification, you need Affects Solid World.

 

While the question of how an unfocused AI attacks is interesting theoretically – and no doubt WILL have practical applications for someone, maybe me, eventually – I want to emphasize that I don’t intend to do any attacking in this form. Right now I’m just trying to figure out how to perceive, communicate, exert a Healing power, possibly move around (see below about location) and just possibly manipulate objects (although I suppose that WOULD count as an “attack” in the same way a Desolid character needs an advantage to use STR even to move a teacup.)

 

Also of course I am trying to answer questions of how (if) my AI character is perceived, how communicated with, and how (if) it can be attacked, effected with powers, moved by others, etc.

 

I note that in FRED it states that for a computer to hear and respond to voice commands, all you need do is buy a language. Apparently the hearing and voice are free. But I have to wonder if I can accept that simple answer as applying to an unfocused AI – the rules might have been written on the assumption of AIs in Bases, Vehicles, and Foci, who have an obvious physical presence (if not PREsence.) Still it’s a good precedent for the assumption that normal Human senses and voice come free for computers and AIs as they do for almost everything else; although somehow by that reasoning I think it also means the AI must be plainly perceptible to Human senses including sight. (No, I’m not quite clear on my logic here – I haven’t thought it all the way through yet. Please let me know if I am or am not making sense.)

 

Earlier I raised the question of whether an unfocused AI even has an identifiable location as such, and if so, how to determine where it is. I have since seen what I should have seen right away, that in my specific case of Multiform into AI, or any similar case such as Transform into AI, the answer is obvious. Unless and until the AI moves somehow, it is wherever it was when it changed into an AI. Multiform and Transform don’t normally move the target to a different place.

 

For a character who buys an unfocused AI or computer as a Follower however, it is still a cogent question. Will it literally Follow the character wherever he goes? Stay in one place to which the character must return to consult his immaterial advisor?

 

This topic is getting so big and unwieldy I am thinking of starting a new thread, and copying and pasting all our discussion so far.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that it’s just getting too awesome for Awsome.

[Mister E]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Someone suggested in a recent thread that I could take Multiform to turn into an artificial intelligence. I think I remember seeing the idea elsewhere, but after checking FREd, I don't see anything in Multiform that tells me whether this is possible or not. So my questions are:

 

1. Can Multiform be used to turn into an "AI" as per the computer rules?

 

What a character can or cannot Multiform into' date=' and any “requirements†for changing into that form, are up to the GM. However, the alternate form has to be one that is defined by a character sheet of some sort; if a character wants to change shape into an ordinary inanimate object like chair, he should buy Shape Shift.[/quote']

 

1 Assuming the guy running the game lets you' date=' it is possible to multiform into a computer, automaton, vehicle, or base, because all these things are defined with points and can be recorded on a character sheet, or something like a character sheet anyway.[/quote']

 

1. Yes' date=' as previously stated.[/quote']

 

Steve's answers are a bit vague as to whether or not this is actually legal. To me, he is stating that if a GM permits, sure. Other than that, I doubt he would ever provide a build in any of his expansions that specifically uses Multiform to turn a normally built character into a character built using the Computer rules, sans normal physical Characteristics.

 

Instead I'd imagine him using Multiform to define either a Desolid build, or a Transdimensional build... both complete with normal physical Characteristics.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Well' date=' you can say that about any character. "Mechanics are mechanics," yes, but it's what you do with them that's interesting. In the case of "Vengeance," the mechanics are typical for a golem -- but what makes me think it's pretty cool is I think I really hit it right with the back story -- which is prime component of something awesome. Not loopholes or cheats, but making some simply sound really, really neat -- no matter how simple that something is.[/quote']

Awesome yes. The concept is excellent.

 

I'm thinking of awesome mechanical builds primarily in this thread though. Things like a martial artist using a No Range EB instead HA or Martial Maneuvers because you can spread the EB for OCV or hexes, or buying Images that produce a crowd of fans for a delusional yet patriotic superhero that cheer him on during a fight and are always rescued by him should they be endangered by the villians.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I'm having problems accepting this business of simply turning into a Computer with Multiform. If that were the case' date=' you could just put yourself into an Automaton.[/quote']

Well, you could buy an Automaton as a Follower that is always around and does things for you on command. And when you Multiform, you go inside our Automaton. Possible SFX include a robotic servant for a character able to transform himself into electrons, or a mindless drone for a character that changes into a possessing spirit.

[Lucius]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Yeah, but the point here is, my character multiforms into an UNFOCUSED AI. Not something attached to a base, vehicle, automaton, or focus.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or palindromedary

[SteveZilla]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Yeah' date=' but the point here is, my character multiforms into an UNFOCUSED AI.[/quote']

 

Is that why he looks a bit fuzzy?

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist the pun.

[Lucius]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Is that why he looks a bit fuzzy?

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist the pun.

 

Well, yes.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an out of focus palindromedary

[Narratio]

Re: What is awsome?

 

In which case the question becomes, what do I need to percieve and interact with the rest of the world?

 

Since it's explicitly stated by the rules that an AI has an EGO and is subject to mental powers, presumably it could use mental powers as well. So Telepathy or a Mind Link (which I was planning to have anyway) would at least enable the disembodied entity to communicate. Assuming the Mind Link is built correctly (no Line of Sight possible if you can't See.) Then other mental powers usable through the Link.

 

I've never liked the telepathy thing for allowing AI's to communicate with colloidal intelligences. They're operating at decent fractions of light speeds, humans are definitely not. The AI gets bored, goes away for a metaphorical fag, read war and peace, comes back and gets the next word shape. It should take forever (from the AI's point of view) for a machine to talk to a human.

 

An AI has to exist inside something. Even if it's spread across a world wide network. Whatever that hardware is that it can connect to or access, provide its senses. Security cameras, orbiting telescopes, show the world okay, but so do pressure pads, thermometers, electric door locks etc.

 

Those senses, once you've got access to them, should be free. You may not have them where you want them to be, but that's an AI's life for you. Time to put cameras on remote controlled model cars. Or take control of that damn humanoid robot next time it's plugged into a data port.

[Shaft]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Base Maker: has bought an insane amount of bases that do not exists yet because he uses his transformation power to bring them forth. I felt that he should by the bases so no argument could be posed but since its his power to build them fully equipted and personalized. I bought Transform to manifest them into exisitence!

 

This is really good for an NPC (like a souped up version of the Superbase Engineer in EveryMan), but I think a player doing that would test the patience of most GMs.

 

The guy with this power would make a good target for a villain who no doubt would coerce Baseman into building a base for him.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I've never liked the telepathy thing for allowing AI's to communicate with colloidal intelligences. They're operating at decent fractions of light speeds, humans are definitely not. The AI gets bored, goes away for a metaphorical fag, read war and peace, comes back and gets the next word shape. It should take forever (from the AI's point of view) for a machine to talk to a human.

 

An AI has to exist inside something. Even if it's spread across a world wide network. Whatever that hardware is that it can connect to or access, provide its senses. Security cameras, orbiting telescopes, show the world okay, but so do pressure pads, thermometers, electric door locks etc.

 

Those senses, once you've got access to them, should be free. You may not have them where you want them to be, but that's an AI's life for you. Time to put cameras on remote controlled model cars. Or take control of that damn humanoid robot next time it's plugged into a data port.

 

A computer intelligence has to exist inside something, an AI (as a mechanical construct for the Hero System) does not. I've used AIs to write up certain Followers and Contacts for characters who talk with ghosts and spirits. There's no physical representation whatsoever. Just a means of communication (and in the case of the Contact, a roll to see if the spirit is near enough to hear you).

 

Also, machine/computer intelligences would be patient. They may not care that they can recite the Bible while a human mind is formulating the next thought, and simply wait for it. Then again, no computer/character in Hero System can read anything that fast without also buying Speed Reading (or whatever equates to that in digital media/thought).

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

This is really good for an NPC (like a souped up version of the Superbase Engineer in EveryMan), but I think a player doing that would test the patience of most GMs.

 

The guy with this power would make a good target for a villain who no doubt would coerce Baseman into building a base for him.

 

Yes, exactly this character is a plot seed and a means to help the players get a super high tech base in the game without waiting years for its construction after paying their exps. Once they save him from the villian its a contact for them and other plot seeds for later.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I suppose this thread is the one to post these in:

 

Years ago, I had a friend who wanted to run a character who was a ghost. Using 4th edition rules, we created a desolid, invisible character who used END to turn visible. We bought him TK with invisible special effects that "affects solid" (the "affects desolid" advantage reversed for a normally desolid character). Since he was already dead and shouldn't be allowed to die from environmental causes we gave him full life support. Now that there are rules for "spirit" characters, I suppose it's easier to construct ghosts now.

 

Another friend had a character with duplication, 3 bodies simultaneously, always on. They were martial artists highly skilled in the art of Stooge-Fu, named Moe, Larry, and Curly (this guy was a real Stooge-junkie). They had nine dice of luck between them and were a hoot to have at the table. They would often break off attacking a foe to argue amongst themselves. Fortunately, they were part of a larger team that was used to their antics.

 

One character I was especially pleased with was a sentient cat. An escaped laboratory animal, this cat had human-level intelligence, and was large (for a cat) at 25 pounds. In addition to his catly ablities (appropriate to an athletically healthy cat of his size), he had 10 STR TK with fine manipulation and invisible SFX (that's how he escaped in the first place) and a 2d6 ego blast with (also) invisible special effects.

 

The cat was "adopted" by a low-powered super-group. While he could not speak "human" (English) he understood it well enough and quickly learned that these guys, instead of sticking him with needles and putting him in a small cage, would actually feed and shelter him and basically treat him like a small god. Naturally, once they had become his servants, he would protect them and aid them in times of trouble. Noblesse oblige, and all that.

 

He (the cat) was hunted by whoever ran the lab he escaped from. I never found out who was hunting him, but he very frequently went "tomcatting around" (off camera) to ensure that if he were ever caught by the guys in the lab coats, his genetic material would be widely distributed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is awsome?

 

One character I was especially pleased with was a sentient cat. An escaped laboratory animal, this cat had human-level intelligence, and was large (for a cat) at 25 pounds. In addition to his catly ablities (appropriate to an athletically healthy cat of his size), he had 10 STR TK with fine manipulation and invisible SFX (that's how he escaped in the first place) and a 2d6 ego blast with (also) invisible special effects.

 

I love cat characters. Mine was an ex-familiar who's witch broke the pact with him by trying to kill him. He escaped and retained the mystical powers and knowledge of a familiar. He couldn't speak at all, but had Mind Link to communicate with others (though in one campaign, I think I rewrote him to be able to speak, but he rarely did). My favorite ability of his a sleep spell he could only cast in HTH, specifically by rubbing up against his target and purring. It was bought as a no range Ego Attack (still based on ECV though).

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Thanks for all of your wondeful input keep it coming!

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

This is a great artifact that can fit in any time line just control the forms taken.

 

I have A character who's name is T.O.G.E. TO-GE THE OMNI GADGET EXTREME she has an astronomically insane amount of Multiforms that allow her to become any gadet or gear be it tech, magic, psionic, or cosmic and such. In game terms she changes into AI's that are attached to bases, vehicles and Focuses of all variety including mecha and power armor,

 

So in effect when I play my main character I can say she's all over me! lol

[Mister E]

Re: What is awsome?

 

This is a great artifact that can fit in any time line just control the forms taken.

 

I have A character who's name is T.O.G.E. TO-GE THE OMNI GADGET EXTREME she has an astronomically insane amount of Multiforms that allow her to become any gadet or gear be it tech, magic, psionic, or cosmic and such. In game terms she changes into AI's that are attached to bases, vehicles and Focuses of all variety including mecha and power armor,

 

So in effect when I play my main character I can say she's all over me! lol

 

The word "masturbatory" comes to mind.

 

What's her Comeliness, just for context?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

The word "masturbatory" comes to mind.

 

What's her Comeliness, just for context?

 

Her comliness is 30! Yeah I know! lol:thumbup:

[Shaft]

Re: What is awsome?

 

This is a great artifact that can fit in any time line just control the forms taken.

 

I have A character who's name is T.O.G.E. TO-GE THE OMNI GADGET EXTREME she has an astronomically insane amount of Multiforms that allow her to become any gadet or gear be it tech, magic, psionic, or cosmic and such. In game terms she changes into AI's that are attached to bases, vehicles and Focuses of all variety including mecha and power armor,

 

So in effect when I play my main character I can say she's all over me! lol

 

How many points are these characters? You have a lot of good ideas, but my quick assessment suggests that they tend to drift to the costly end of things when you calculate the point value.

[Susano]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I have A character who's name is T.O.G.E. TO-GE THE OMNI GADGET EXTREME she has an astronomically insane amount of Multiforms that allow her to become any gadet or gear be it tech' date=' magic, psionic, or cosmic and such.[/quote']

 

I have a problem with this -- mainly because it seems to lack any sort of concept or rational. How/why can a technological device become a magical device? And what is meant by "cosmic"?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I have a problem with this -- mainly because it seems to lack any sort of concept or rational. How/why can a technological device become a magical device? And what is meant by "cosmic"?

 

I never said its origin was technological just because the word gadget is used does not make it technical.. It has concept it was an experiment by many different fields of influence (creatures/beings of magic, tech, psionic, supernatural) to build something to shape reality but it backfired and the end result was TOGE.

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

How many points are these characters? You have a lot of good ideas' date=' but my quick assessment suggests that they tend to drift to the costly end of things when you calculate the point value.[/quote']

 

Not really as costly as you may think all of them can be done with 350 but 500 is the more effective versions of them. At 350 they are useful just not as effective as they're going to be once they grow to 500 +

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

I have endless concepts and I'm willing to share them all well almost I have to keep the really good ones for myself. lol nawh just playing, I'll share!

[Shaft]

Re: What is awsome?

 

Not really as costly as you may think all of them can be done with 350 but 500 is the more effective versions of them. At 350 they are useful just not as effective as they're going to be once they grow to 500 +

 

I'm still unconvinced that these ideas can be done 350 pts. Do you have any write ups you're willing to post?

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: What is awsome?

 

400pt Base maker 1250pt base (250) 1 billion base (150pts on x number) extra time 5 min -2 to create base transform must be used to bring bases into existence -0) real cost 133pts

 

40 transform 1pip major 0 END +1/2 Autofire (640) +4 3/4 damage shield/offensive +3/4 continuous +1 extra time 5 min -2 real cost 13pts

 

total 146pts for the ability to make over 1 billion personalized 1250pt bases. fully equiped with AI's, vehicles, gear & gadets, followers ect.

 

the other 104pts or 204ps depending on whether 250-350 game can be used to buy skills and additional powers if so desired.

 

Affordable I think so!