Lack of Resistant Defenses

[bcaplan]

In non-Champions Hero products, a high percentage of characters are built with 0 resistant defense. The main rationale, as far as I can tell, is that it's "out of genre" for non-superheroes to have bullets bouncing off of them. But of course the special effect of resistant defense doesn't have to be that bullets literally bounce off. It could also just be Combat Luck, skill in avoiding damage to vital body parts, etc.

 

And if you really think about it, if you're trying to simulate e.g. action movies, something like Combat Luck as a virtually universal PC ability makes a lot of sense. How else can you explain the fact that Arnold gets shot at for two hours and still walks away at the end?

[CraterMaker]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Do you have some specific characters in mind that you think need resistant defenses? Without knowing which character, it's awfully hard to tell you if they need some or not..

 

But, in general, you are right - Combat Luck is an appropriate way to model the effect of action movie heros not being hurt - so is a high DCV, low OCV in their Opponents, Missile Deflection defined as dodging, changing the range penalty chart, desolidification requiring a skill roll ....

 

......the list is, thankfully, long. All Hail Hero!!

 

-CraterMaker

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

I've run a grip of heroic level games over the years, and have never used Combat Luck (it being a 5th Edition thing.. nothing saying it couldn't be built before, but it wasn't "canon").

 

Frankly, the higher the Average Damage to Average DEF ratio is, the more "realisticly" the PC's will act. There are a whole lot of combat maneuvers out there, and a lot of the defensive ones get underutilized in high DEF games.

 

My FH games averaged 2 1/2d6 KA's and 5 DEF.

My Cinematic DI (read as Dark Champions) Zombie Squad game averaged 2d6K and around 3 DEF.

My Star Hero game was all over the board... no easy averages. Attacks from weapons carried commonly by the PC's ranged from 1 1/2d6 AP Autofire K to 8d6k. Weapons used against them were in the same range. DEF levels were just as broad, from 4-5 DEF concealed armored clothing up to 25+ DEF powered armor.

 

In most of these games, there were usually a few locations with minimal or no armor..0-1 DEF depending on the clothing.

 

Most of these games were at the 250 point level for starting PC's, and used the full suite of optional combat rules, including Impairing & Disabling, Bleeding, Critical Hits, Wounding, Imposing, and both optional Healing rules.

 

Worked for my group like a charm. People knew that if you walked into the open in the midst of a firefight, you'd be in trouble. Lots of exploiting cover, Diving for Cover, Snap Shots, Supression fire, and all the other crunchy bits that are often ignored as "too complicated"

[gojira]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Do you have some specific characters in mind that you think need resistant defenses?

 

Everybody not wearin' a red shirt! Seriously, you did agree that resistant defenses are important, so I think you'd agree there. I'd even advocate a bit of Combat Luck for DNPCs and other important folks.

 

Basically, everyone except mooks designed to go down, and the scenery.

 

ANB makes some good points though. I'll have to look at those rules a little more closely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

.......................How else can you explain the fact that Arnold gets shot at for two hours and still walks away at the end?

 

Extremely poor scripting, a ridiculously gullible and unrealistic audience, and probably a clause in his contract.

 

I don't see resistant defences as the answer. If you want to play an Arnold movie, just assume all the vilains have at least -6 OCV, and even when they do hit, cause minimum damage.

 

I mean, it won't be much fun, but then....

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Combat Luck is a nice mechanic for simulating some things, but its not essential - at least, it wasn't in any of the heroic games I ran before 5th Edition came out. You can also use high Combat Values, as well as the combat maneuvers and a studious knowledge of the combat mechanics to increase survivability of high profile characters.

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Extremely poor scripting, a ridiculously gullible and unrealistic audience, and probably a clause in his contract.

 

 

And, from reviewing yearly FBI reports on police shooting statistics. In most street gunfights a lot of bullets are fired under extreme stress at close or point-blank range with a truly, truly, truly pathetic percentage of actual hits. The heart is booming and the lungs are heaving so hard your whole body shakes, the mind is under remarkable stress, the stomache has shut down and the body is reacting of a massive surge of adrenaline, you are moving and your target is moving, the weather or light may be negative factors, and its all over in a span of seconds. The man with a cool head who takes time to aim is the exception to the rule, and generally wins. Oh - and the action movie script, because outnumbered 10-1 with a hail of incoming automatic weapons fire, even green berets drop like flies.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

And' date=' from reviewing yearly FBI reports on police shooting statistics. In most street gunfights a lot of bullets are fired under extreme stress at close or point-blank range with a truly, truly, truly pathetic percentage of actual hits. The heart is booming and the lungs are heaving so hard your whole body shakes, the mind is under remarkable stress, the stomache has shut down and the body is reacting of a massive surge of adrenaline, you are moving and your target is moving, the weather or light may be negative factors, and its all over in a span of seconds. The man with a cool head who takes time to aim is the exception to the rule, and generally wins. Oh - and the action movie script, because outnumbered 10-1 with a hail of incoming automatic weapons fire, even green berets drop like flies.[/quote']

 

Maybe greater realism requires OCV be considerably lower than DCV. Of course, part of the problem is that players prefer combat where they trade hits over combat where each side rolls many misses until, finally, some random lucky character gets a spectacular roll and kills his opponent. Especially when the odds of that lucky character being the villain equals the odds of it being the hero.

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Maybe greater realism requires OCV be considerably lower than DCV. Of course' date=' part of the problem is that players prefer combat where they trade hits over combat where each side rolls many misses until, finally, some random lucky character gets a spectacular roll and kills his opponent. Especially when the odds of that lucky character being the villain equals the odds of it being the hero.[/quote']

 

That's would be one way, another would be to assume greater realism requires greater penalties to OCV, which amounts to much the same thing. And you're right about the general approach players take. A judicious use of tactics and environment can create a very real advantage, but it is seldom done. There's a reason police and soldiers are trained to make use of surprise, cover, numbers, and superior firepower wherever possible. When lives are on the line you ignore the Marquise of Queensbury Rules - which is what most players seeme to want as the status quo: boxing matches where you stand and trade blows... with lethal weapons.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

That's would be one way' date=' another would be to assume greater realism requires greater penalties to OCV, which amounts to much the same thing. And you're right about the general approach players take. A judicious use of tactics and environment can create a very real advantage, but it is seldom done. There's a reason police and soldiers are trained to make use of surprise, cover, numbers, and superior firepower wherever possible. When lives are on the line you ignore the Marquise of Queensbury Rules - which is what most players seeme to want as the status quo: boxing matches where you stand and trade blows... with lethal weapons.[/quote']

 

I've used a couple of different mook rules before, very few of which represented any mechanical changes to the system, but rather "common tactics". The desire to make your opponent stop shooting at you by pumping as much lead in his direction as possible is strong. The fight or flight reflex tends to take over, and in those circumstances pointing your gun in the general direction of the bad guys ad yanking the trigger is all too common, as you noted.

It could be handled with an EGO roll. If the roll is failed, the choice of offensive maneuvers is limited to Rapid Fire, Supresion Fire, or Blazing Away with a presence attack. A lot of the excess shot fired in modern firefights are defensive in nature, not intended to hit but to make the other guy duck & stop shooting at you. Experienced and well trained combatants could always take a couple points of Resistance to augment the Ego Roll.

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

It could be handled with an EGO roll. If the roll is failed, the choice of offensive maneuvers is limited to Rapid Fire, Supresion Fire, or Blazing Away with a presence attack. A lot of the excess shot fired in modern firefights are defensive in nature, not intended to hit but to make the other guy duck & stop shooting at you. Experienced and well trained combatnts could always take a couple points of Resistance to augment the Ego Roll.

 

This is a good way to model both human nature and "coolness under fire." Something to chew on.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

This is a good way to model both human nature and "coolness under fire." Something to chew on.

 

I thought you might like it. It was something that originally germinated as "The Imperial Stormtrooper School of Markmanship", tho in their case I saw it as a deliberate tactic employed.. Open with a PRE attack and Blazing Away to break the morale of anyone foolish enough to challenge Imperial authority, then follow up with supression fire against anyone who's trying to hide and shoot back.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

In non-Champions Hero products, a high percentage of characters are built with 0 resistant defense. The main rationale, as far as I can tell, is that it's "out of genre" for non-superheroes to have bullets bouncing off of them. But of course the special effect of resistant defense doesn't have to be that bullets literally bounce off. It could also just be Combat Luck, skill in avoiding damage to vital body parts, etc.

 

And if you really think about it, if you're trying to simulate e.g. action movies, something like Combat Luck as a virtually universal PC ability makes a lot of sense. How else can you explain the fact that Arnold gets shot at for two hours and still walks away at the end?

 

Personally, I like a combination of Combat Luck (but must take at least 1 BODY through if Killing) and a very low-level Regeneration (1 BODY per hour). This does a fairly good job of showing the hero taking lots and lots of damage, but still having the "courage" to keep going. However, if he doesn't dodge out of the way of several guys shooting him, he's hosed.

 

In a bullets-more-common-than-water campaign, go with Combat Luckx2 and Regeneration.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

And you're right about the general approach players take. A judicious use of tactics and environment can create a very real advantage' date=' but it is seldom done. There's a reason police and soldiers are trained to make use of surprise, cover, numbers, and superior firepower wherever possible. When lives are on the line you ignore the Marquise of Queensbury Rules - which is what most players seeme to want as the status quo: boxing matches where you stand and trade blows... with lethal weapons.[/quote']

 

Well, many players are also averse to leaving their opponents alive - the possibility that digging in to a superior position, firing some suppression fire, taking no hits and having your opponent flee the field constitutes a "victory" seems lost on many gamers. If he's not dead (or captured, in some genres), we didn't win. This also makes recurring villains tough to come by in many genres, despite their prevelance in much of the source material.

[bcaplan]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Do you have some specific characters in mind that you think need resistant defenses? Without knowing which character' date=' it's awfully hard to tell you if they need some or not..[/quote']

 

Well, just flipping through Hudson City: The Urban Abyss, an environment with lots of KAs, 2 out of 3 of the "allies," and 9 of of 14 of the villains, have 0 resistant defense. I think these ratios are even higher in the Pulp products, which also have a lot of gunfire.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Body Armor is available in most modern, and many fantasy, settings.

 

Inherent rDEF isn't really something the write up needs. Remember, equipment isn't paid for with points in a Heroic Game so isn't always listed on the character sheet or write up.

 

I don't have DC or HC but looking through MM and PH I see that writeups do not include equipment. Which means you can't go by just the write up itself - the GM is expected to give the badguys some stuff too.

[bcaplan]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Body Armor is available in most modern, and many fantasy, settings.

 

Inherent rDEF isn't really something the write up needs. Remember, equipment isn't paid for with points in a Heroic Game so isn't always listed on the character sheet or write up.

 

I don't have DC or HC but looking through MM and PH I see that writeups do not include equipment. Which means you can't go by just the write up itself - the GM is expected to give the badguys some stuff too.

 

Sure, but Body Armor is out-of-genre for most modern games. Body Armor works in military or special forces genres, but that's about it. Arnold almost never wears it; neither do James Bond or Jack Bauer. I don't know the Pulps very well, but I suspect the same holds there.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

In non-Champions Hero products, a high percentage of characters are built with 0 resistant defense. The main rationale, as far as I can tell, is that it's "out of genre" for non-superheroes to have bullets bouncing off of them. But of course the special effect of resistant defense doesn't have to be that bullets literally bounce off. It could also just be Combat Luck, skill in avoiding damage to vital body parts, etc.

 

And if you really think about it, if you're trying to simulate e.g. action movies, something like Combat Luck as a virtually universal PC ability makes a lot of sense. How else can you explain the fact that Arnold gets shot at for two hours and still walks away at the end?

If the genre you are playing in is similar to those action films where the hero, and some villains, seem to take a bullet or a stab wound but keep going, virtually unimpared through they are covered in their own blood, there are a number of ways to simulate it. My favorite is to just give such characters a really high BODY and make sure I'm using the Hit Location rules. Granted, you get the occasional head shot, but for the most part, you also get a lot of arm and leg wounds that don't do enough damage to do serious harm (given the high BODY). It's also a good idea to not use the Bleeding, Wounding & Disabling rules as they would be innapropriate.

 

Another option, as you suggest, is to give all the heroes an appropriate amount of Resistant Defenses. Whatever appropriate is will depend on the average killing damage for the game and how physically unphasable the heroes are. The SFX for this is typically "heroic determination"; no matter what hell the character is put through, it doesn't slow him down.

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Sure' date=' but Body Armor is out-of-genre for most modern games. Body Armor works in military or special forces genres, but that's about it. Arnold almost never wears it; neither do James Bond or Jack Bauer. I don't know the Pulps very well, but I suspect the same holds there.[/quote']

 

Arnie has 75% Resistant Damage Reduction with the FX set to "dramatically appropriate scratches, nothing more..."

 

But, Bond has 6d6 Luck. At least 6d6.

 

That, or both of them could be modelled with insane, persistant levels with DCV.

 

There's more than one way to model it. Resistant defenses are only one way (and while useful, combat luck is somewhat counter-intuitive).

[tesuji]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

For an arnold style action game, one possibility is to NOT use KAs.

 

In such films, there just isn't the lethality difference between arnold bashing you senseless or you being shot. Arnold recovers from bullet wounds quickly and stab wounds are little more than punches in effect.

 

So, sure, you CAn choose to reflect bullets and knives with KAs and give them the "this damage matters a lot" since its body and body doesn't recover like stun and end does and also give them as KAs the ability to ignore most of your defenses, and the turn right around and give your heroes the ability to REGENERATE (so the damage doesn't last long at all) and turn right sround and give your heroes RESISTANT DEFENSES by hook and crook so they do get to use all their defenses...

 

but why take two steps backwards (gunns and knive are KAs) only to turn around and take two steps forward (shoe horn in mechanical counters to KAs) when you could have just stayed where you were (use "normal attacks" for most attacks and rserve KAs for very specially deadly things like lasers or the eraser gun or other things where the KA elements are appropriate?)

 

The problem isn't Arnold doesn't have obvious resistant defenses, but that the arnold character is being run in a game where resistant defenses are so necessary. Remove the necessity and remove the need for "innovative" defensive SFX. KISS.

 

all IMO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Tesuji beat me to it.

 

If it's not genre appropriate to kill people all the time then maybe you should use Normal Attacks instead of Killing Attacks.

[Vondy]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

For an arnold style action game, one possibility is to NOT use KAs.

 

 

An equally valid method, IMO.

[bcaplan]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Tesuji beat me to it.

 

If it's not genre appropriate to kill people all the time then maybe you should use Normal Attacks instead of Killing Attacks.

 

Yes, but what if it's genre appropriate to kill normals and mooks, but not heroes? That's what R-rated action movies - and TV shows like 24 - are all about.

[tesuji]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Yes' date=' but what if it's genre appropriate to kill normals and mooks, but not heroes? That's what R-rated action movies - and TV shows like [i']24 [/i]- are all about.

 

then build readily killable mooks and normals.

 

you dont need killing attacks to kill people... you just dont need to build your mooks to be that tough. a 1-2 PD guy with only 4-5 body gets dropped pretty quickly. one good arnold haymaker likely drops him to that bleeding stage.

 

if thats not mook-lethal enough, you can go the route of disadvantages. Give "those i want to die easily" a x2 body vulnerability to physical attacks. This way you can tailor precisely who gets hurt and out quickly and who stands up to punishment more heroically.

 

all without needing to add in a second way to score damage.

 

make the system do what you want instead of reimagining characters to suit the system.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Lack of Resistant Defenses

 

Yes' date=' but what if it's genre appropriate to kill normals and mooks, but not heroes? That's what R-rated action movies - and TV shows like [i']24 [/i]- are all about.

 

Normals and Mooks obviously have Vulnerability: 2x Effect from Guns.