Possibilities With New Stats

[CraterMaker]

It's late - I should be in bed, but I can't sleep.. I was thinking about several of the clunky fixes to things that are difficult to do in Hero, like reducing somethings mass, and think I might have hit on a solution for some games..

 

If you added in a new stat, Mass, that worked like the power Density Increase (without the end cost), it could be affected by Adjustment powers as any other characteristic could. Price it just like DI with the advantage Reduced End 0 endurance.. and instead of buying Density Increase, they could purchace the Mass stat with "Costs End" limitation.

 

And then I was wondering how many games out there use an additional stat (and how it helped/changed your game) to simulate specific things.. Sort of a master list for people to refer to if they are interested in doing something like that.

 

So here it is, the call to post your house rules involving extra characteristics..

 

-CraterMaker

[Outsider]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I thought about a Mass stat for my Fantasy Hero game. It was to be a primary characteristic, and STR and BODY were going to become secondary characteristics.

 

The initial thought was that a character would mass 10 kg per MASS stat point, start at 10 MASS, and be limited (on a Human Character) to 15 maximum. MASS past 10 would cost 2 character points per pip.

 

Mass : mass (weight)

1 : 10 kg (22 lbs)

2 : 20 kg (44 lbs)

3 : 30 kg (66 lbs)

4 : 40 kg (88 lbs)

5 : 50 kg (110 lbs)

6 : 60 kg (132 lbs)

7 : 70 kg (154 lbs)

8 : 80 kg (176 lbs)

9 : 90 kg (198 lbs)

10 : 100 Kg (220 lbs)

11 : 110 (242 lbs)

12 : 120 (264 lbs)

13 : 130 (286 lbs)

14 : 140 (308 lbs)

15 : 150 (330 lbs)

 

STR would be equal to MASS, and could be bought up at 2 points per pip up to 5 points over figured.

 

BODY equals (8+MASS/2) and can not be bought up. If bought down, it would sell back for 2 points per pip, and represent a person with a fragile physique.

 

The three other methods to modify MASS (and thus STR and maybe BOD) would be through the following :

 

1) The character is not made of human flesh and blood. Certain races will get modifications to their MASS/STR/BODY to represent the different flesh that they are made of. Example : Elves might get -2 MASS, +2 BODY and +2 STR (thus making them as strong as a human, but lighter and more durable)

 

2) Musclebound :

The musclebound character's physique is more developed than his frame can realistically support, resulting in reduced flexibility and an undue load on his cardio-pulmonary system. While it makes the character stronger, the added strength comes at a cost.

 

Game effects (5 levels maximum) :

+1 MASS (effects figureds)

+1 STR

-1 DEX

+5 kg (or maybe 10 kg) to encumbrance at all times

 

Cost : 1 point per level, unless the added MASS takes the character's MASS over 15, at which point the cost is 3 character points per level.

 

 

3) Obese :

The obese character's physique includes a lot of extra fat, resulting in greatly reduced flexibility and an undue load on his cardio-pulmonary system. In game terms, it is the equivalent to musclebound, just without the STR.

 

Game effects (5 levels maximum) :

+1 MASS (effects figured)

-1 STR

-1 DEX

+5 kg (or maybe 10Kg) to encumbrance at all times

 

Obese is a -3 point per level unless it takes MASS over 15, at which point it is only -1 per level.

 

 

A character may be both musclebound and obese. Also, a character with more than a couple levels of either Musclebound or Obese (or both) (or with a very high MASS stat) will probably qualify for some Distincitve Features as well.

 

 

 

Now, you will note that there is a hard cap on STR (for a human) of 30 in this system, which would normally result in a 1600 kg non-pushed lift, which is a bit high. I combine this with a linear lift system where non pushed lift is 10 kg per STR, so the most a human could lift without pushing is 300 kg, which is plenty for a heroic genre. (note : STR added via push is still geometric... so a pushed 30 STR lifts 600 kg, which is really a lot.)

 

 

 

 

The rationale for this :

 

1) A character who is massively strong should be massive. At least if he is made of human flesh and blood.

 

2) It provides granularity for things like armor fit. If most people are MASS 10 humans with neither musclebound or obesity, then a character who is a MASS 10 human without either of those should have a much easier time coming across (looting) gear that fits without major adjustment.

 

3) I have never liked the fact that BODY stat in a heroic game can go up to 20 so easily. A 20 BODY, IMHO, breaks the chances of impairments and disablements too much, and makes transforms nigh unto useless, given the usual heroic campaign limits on spell active points. Making BODY a stat that only varies slightly from the baseline fixes this problem nicely.

 

 

 

Notes :

 

1) The costs are based on 2 points per STR (another campaign rule for a heroic FH game) and have not really been deeply thought out. So if anyone has issues with them, they're not alone. I do too.

 

2) As written, it isnt that kind to character concepts that are not huge hulking warriors. That needs work too.

 

3) Realistically, Obesity should be nigh unlimited in the number of levels that can be bought, with the ability of the character to actually move under his own power being the primary limiting factor.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I've never thought of using Mass as a Characteristic personally, but I have considered other things as optional Characteristics for Hero Systems characters. Luck seems to be a popular one I've never actually used. I've toyed with separating DEX into REF (reflexes; initiative and most DEX based Skills) and AGI (agility; CV and all the other DEX based Skills). Recently I've comtemplated in creating a new Characteristic that combines some aspects of INT and EGO, but havn't decided what to call it, or whether to present it as a Figured Characteristic or not.

 

And I've occasionally used Mental Defense as a Figured Characteristic instead of a Power, but that already existed in the game, technically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I do like Outsider's ideas, although it would mean REALLY small/light characters would start off with negative mass, and anything under -16 MASS would have no BODY at all. Possibly realistic, given the 'base' start, but insects are in for a hard time

 

The other thing that bothers me is that BODY can't be bought up: surely a normal human has an amount of Body that reflects not just the mass of flesh but also the existence of vulnerable bits of it: an earth elemental of the same mass could probably take a lot more damage through defences to kill.

 

I'm more inclined to ditch characteristics: INT and COM and PRE for a start and replace them with talents like 'excellent memory', 'striking appearance' and 'brave', which are basically just skill levels (or PRE defence/offence) with a few limtiations and a fancy name.

 

Oh, and I seem to have turned on an 'overtype' edit which is making editing my rambling thoughts REALLY aggravating: anyone know how I did it and how I can stop?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Years ago I had a crack at writing my own system and I had something like presence in it, but also another 'long term' version I think I called 'respect' because I did not see why you had to be a charismatic leader for your troops to be confident and not easily spooked when you are in charge, if they'd known you long enough to know that you got the job done and got them out alive. in fact a lot of experienced troops are probably a lot more worried by the charismatic leader who promises it is all going to be a walk in the park - and they believe him - and then it all goes TU.

 

Presence get people to react here and now, Respect gets them to follow through in the longer term

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

IN FACT (I'm just trying to see how much of the thread I can write on my own), if I was George Macdonald and it was 1981 I'd probably do away with the idea of figured characteristics, make DEX 2 points per, CON and BODY 1 point per and leave STR at 1 point per. I might reduce REC to 1 point per, or I might not.

 

That would save SO much trouble.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Tell you the truth, Sean, I've often thought of doing away with a few characteristics myself - for the Super-Hero genre, at least. Why shouldn't Strength be a power, in a game where the Hero's are all extraordinary?

 

Just as a rough draft, I might do this

 

Stats

----

Dex

Con

Ego

Rec - Ego/5 + Con/5

End - Con/2 + Ego/2

Stun -Con+Ego

-----

 

I am intrigued with the Less Combat Tracking thread, tho I'm working on something a little different: Trying to come up with a system that tells you how much damage you do by your to hit roll..

 

Basically, base damage would be DC x 3 Stun and DC x 1 Bod, and every point you roll under the to hit roll adds 3 pts stun and 1pt Bod.. but I never seem to be in the right mind frame to really wrap my head around the problem to explore it's ramifications..

 

Outsider: My mass stat would cost 8 pts per level and run something like this

 

10 - base stat - 100 kg

09 - 50 kg

08 - 25 kg

07 - 12.5 kg

06 - 6.25 kg

05 - 3 kg

04 - 1.5 kg

03 - .75 kg

02 - .3 kg

01 - .1 kg

00 - 0 kg

 

I think.. and of course double up KG as you go higher than 10. KB penalties for stats under 10, str loss for mass under 10 - Defenses would be unaffected.

 

Over 10, you get the same benefits as if you bought additional levels of DI..

--------

 

Dust Raven: What would be the effects of splitting Dex up? I could see it making Characters more distinctive..

 

-CraterMaker

[Outsider]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Sean : There is no such thing as negative MASS, as 0 Mass = 0 kg. Thus the minimum BODY stat for a character who doesnt sell off BODY is 8. The presented numbers (and the inability to buy BODY up) are for humans and/or creatures made of the same stuff. If the character or creature is made of something else (such as your Earth Elemental) then it will get a bonus to/be able to buy up BODY.

 

I had also thought of having BODY = MASS straight away, but that ran into the problem that the 'rationale 3)' issues wouldnt really be addressed. And small characters would be heavily screwed on those issues.

[Outsider]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Cratermaker : I feel that geometric progressions are great for supers, but arent such a good fit for fantasy, so I've been trying to move away from them in my Fantasy Game. The MASS stat I talked about above is for Fantasy, and wouldnt work so well for Supers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I am intrigued with the Less Combat Tracking thread, tho I'm working on something a little different: Trying to come up with a system that tells you how much damage you do by your to hit roll..

 

Basically, base damage would be DC x 3 Stun and DC x 1 Bod, and every point you roll under the to hit roll adds 3 pts stun and 1pt Bod.. but I never seem to be in the right mind frame to really wrap my head around the problem to explore it's ramifications..

 

 

Something like this....?

 

The averages are slightly up on what they should be and you get some slightly impossible results at the extremes but it isn't a bad fit:)

 

I also did one based on the % damage but that left very little differentiation at the extremes so I did this instead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Take the DC of the attack (or break it up and add the bits together: I can do a full DC table if you need it) and just read off the STUN or BODY of the attack (for normal/killing) against the attack roll made int he first column then the Body of normal attacks in the second or the stun of killing attacks int he third.

 

Note that the way it is set up, a roll of 3 does minimum, not maximum damage.

 

The reason for this is that two opponents attacking each other of similar skill are unlikely to ever land a killer blow: it is only when one opponent has a substantial skill advantage that they are liely to eb able to land a perfect blow, so only those who COULD hit on a roll of 17 will do max damage.

 

If you don't like it that way round just invert the 'roll' column.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Sean : There is no such thing as negative MASS, as 0 Mass = 0 kg. Thus the minimum BODY stat for a character who doesnt sell off BODY is 8. The presented numbers (and the inability to buy BODY up) are for humans and/or creatures made of the same stuff. If the character or creature is made of something else (such as your Earth Elemental) then it will get a bonus to/be able to buy up BODY.

 

I had also thought of having BODY = MASS straight away, but that ran into the problem that the 'rationale 3)' issues wouldnt really be addressed. And small characters would be heavily screwed on those issues.

 

Sorry did not spot it was not an exponential progression, just say 10=100kg . However you'll get other problems that way: a giant 12 feet tall will have mass about 8 times a normal human and so will have a Mass Stat of 80 on this table, with associated massive BODY and STR. Even if you don't have giants, a warhorse would weigh that much or more.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I've used a Presence Defense stat in some games.

 

PreD = PRE/2 + EGO/2

 

+1 PreD for 1 AP

[CourtFool]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I smell FUDGE.

 

For one short-lived Fantasy campaign I ran once, I created Mana which was derived from PRE and was basically END for Magic.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Cratermaker : I feel that geometric progressions are great for supers' date=' but arent such a good fit for fantasy, so I've been trying to move away from them in my Fantasy Game. The MASS stat I talked about above is for Fantasy, and wouldnt work so well for Supers.[/quote']

 

Which is actually an excellent example of the purpose of this thread - 2 different games that could use a Mass stat, but each works differently for the purposes of the Genre..

 

I know theres more examples out there - can't wait to see them.

-------

So CourtFool, why did you decide to add a stat to your game rather than using one of the existing powers? And how did it work out?

---------

SleepyDrug - Same thing, why and how did it work out?

-------

 

Sean - The main problem I had in theorizing my system was the fear of CV creep, since the higher the ocv the potential for more damage to your opponent. It looks like your system could suffer from this, too - But I REALLY like the idea of higher "to hit" rolls doing more damage - Fantastic conceptualization, I urge other people to take a look at it..

 

-CraterMaker

[Dust Raven]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

Dust Raven: What would be the effects of splitting Dex up? I could see it making Characters more distinctive..

 

-CraterMaker

 

It would be more distinctive, but the greatest impact is on Skills. Now being good at picking locks doesn't automatically make you just as good at backflips.

[zornwil]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I created Supernatural Defense, derived by INT/5, along with a Supernatural Attack powe r(the supernatural analogue to EB) and Supernaturally-Based Advantage (which much like Based on ECV can turn a power into a supernatural ability). I make all Adjustment Powers go against SD by default (but they are, like other Supernatural abilities by default, at range at the same cost as in the book without range). I did this to give magical stuff its own arena. Bear in mind that supernatural attacks are STUN only by default, but go through intervening barriers freely, as long as those barriers do not have supernatural defenses of course.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

The Savage Earth uses three figured characteristics: Morphia, Anima and Psyche. These are used primarily as target numbers for Transformation powers.

 

Morphia = Body + DEF * †

Anima = Dex/2 + Speed x2 †

Psyche = (Int + Ego)/2

 

*In the case of characters, the average of inherent resistant defenses.

†Double the value for every weight doubling of 100kg.

 

Keith "Works out well, so far" Curtis

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I understand your concern but the best way to reduce mass is shrinking with approiate limitations and advantages or change enviroment self only with other lim's and advantages to produce the desired effect. that allows you to keep the math of body and everything else simple.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

It would be more distinctive' date=' but the greatest impact is on Skills. Now being good at picking locks doesn't automatically make you just as good at backflips.[/quote']

 

 

So DEX =

1 point agility (body movement, used for appropriate skills and usually used for DCV)

PLUS 1 point manual dexterity (hands and aim, used for appropriate skills and usually used for OCV)

PLUS 1 point of speed (used for SPEED, the figured characteristic)

 

Makes the character more finely tuned, I suppose, but you can do that with limitations already, if you want, and can I just point out two things:

 

1. We have 14 characteristics ALREADY

2. We are going to have a job chopping up STRENGTH

[CraterMaker]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I understand your concern but the best way to reduce mass is shrinking with approiate limitations and advantages or change enviroment self only with other lim's and advantages to produce the desired effect. that allows you to keep the math of body and everything else simple.

 

Erm - Why is that the best way? As a stat, and alterable by adjustment powers, it's much more easily fine tuned to match the appropriate special effect you want to mimic, in my opinion.. And the Mass stat wouldn't be any more complicated then an existing effect, Density Increase.

 

For example, if you want a mass reduction ray that only reduces mass as long as the beam is on it, buy it as Suppress Mass..

 

If you want to absorb somethings Mass into your own, buy Transfer Mass

 

If you want to "shift" a ships mass into another dimension in order to increase top speed, but over time it bleeds back into this reality, buy it as a drain.

 

If you want to make something heavier, buy an aid or a succor..

 

The new options that open up for SFX involving Mass and adjustment powers are at the very least, interesting and illustrative of how you could use additional stats as a solution to some modelling problems - kinda the point of this thread, too..

-----------------------

 

Keith Curtis - I think I ken Morphia, how hard it is to change somethings shape, and Psyche, for mental transforms, but what is Anima representing? Oh yeah, Savage Earth! - Thats your cool post apoc setting, right? With animated scarecrows and such?

 

-CraterMaker

[Dust Raven]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

 

So DEX =

1 point agility (body movement, used for appropriate skills and usually used for DCV)

PLUS 1 point manual dexterity (hands and aim, used for appropriate skills and usually used for OCV)

PLUS 1 point of speed (used for SPEED, the figured characteristic)

 

Makes the character more finely tuned, I suppose, but you can do that with limitations already, if you want, and can I just point out two things:

 

1. We have 14 characteristics ALREADY

2. We are going to have a job chopping up STRENGTH

Agreed, which is why I don't actually use any of these. So far, they have all been thought experiments.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I'm not sure what the distinction is. How about EB as a Characteristic: Normal people start with 0, each +1 EB costs 5 points, and allows a ranged attack of a d6/point of EB which must be defined as Physical or Energy.

 

We use the terms "Characteristic," "Power," "Talent," etc., for convenience, not because there's any inherent difference between them. We could call all Characteristics Powers if we want to, or vice versa.

 

One Characteristic anomaly the occasionally bugs me concerns PRE. Some characters have a high PRE because they're big and ugly and intimidating and scary. If such a character buys a PRE-based skill such as High Society or Seduction, he benefits from his high PRE, even though it doesn't make much sense. But it also doesn't make much sense that such a character shouldn't be allowed to buy such skills. On possible solution is to define two types of PRE. I'm not sure what to call them, I sort of want to call them "Positive" and "Negative," but that could be confused with the actual value of the stat. "Positive" would be the kind of PRE posessed by Captain America, James Bond, etc. "Negative" PRE would be for characters like the Hulk and big scary monsters. Then, only the appropriate type of PRE would be used to calculate skill rolls, which would depend on the circumstances as much or more than the individual skill.

[zornwil]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I'm not sure what the distinction is. How about EB as a Characteristic: Normal people start with 0, each +1 EB costs 5 points, and allows a ranged attack of a d6/point of EB which must be defined as Physical or Energy.

 

We use the terms "Characteristic," "Power," "Talent," etc., for convenience, not because there's any inherent difference between them. We could call all Characteristics Powers if we want to, or vice versa.

 

One Characteristic anomaly the occasionally bugs me concerns PRE. Some characters have a high PRE because they're big and ugly and intimidating and scary. If such a character buys a PRE-based skill such as High Society or Seduction, he benefits from his high PRE, even though it doesn't make much sense. But it also doesn't make much sense that such a character shouldn't be allowed to buy such skills. On possible solution is to define two types of PRE. I'm not sure what to call them, I sort of want to call them "Positive" and "Negative," but that could be confused with the actual value of the stat. "Positive" would be the kind of PRE posessed by Captain America, James Bond, etc. "Negative" PRE would be for characters like the Hulk and big scary monsters. Then, only the appropriate type of PRE would be used to calculate skill rolls, which would depend on the circumstances as much or more than the individual skill.

I would say chars are notably different in that they are (generally) much less defined than powers and have more varying likely game impacts. They are much more "black boxes" with the deconstruction costs and elaboration of mechanical impacts extremely hard to verify/validate, compared to most powers which rest on other fundamentals (we can explain a lot just based on 1 DC = 5 points, for example).

 

Also, characteristics, unlike powers, are defined as something all characters generally share at some default value > 0, implying universality of application for characters.

 

Characteristics all have an inherent mechanic of a "characteristic roll," something not generally available to powers. (If we added Energy Blast as a char, we'd have an EB char roll - I suppose it would sort of be an inherent Power Skill)

 

That said, I'm not suggesting that one cannot build chars from powers (or vice-versa, even), but rather just highlighting the baggage that comes when doing so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Possibilities With New Stats

 

I would say chars are notably different in that they are (generally) much less defined than powers and have more varying likely game impacts. They are much more "black boxes" with the deconstruction costs and elaboration of mechanical impacts extremely hard to verify/validate, compared to most powers which rest on other fundamentals (we can explain a lot just based on 1 DC = 5 points, for example).

 

Also, characteristics, unlike powers, are defined as something all characters generally share at some default value > 0, implying universality of application for characters.

 

Characteristics all have an inherent mechanic of a "characteristic roll," something not generally available to powers. (If we added Energy Blast as a char, we'd have an EB char roll - I suppose it would sort of be an inherent Power Skill)

 

That said, I'm not suggesting that one cannot build chars from powers (or vice-versa, even), but rather just highlighting the baggage that comes when doing so.

 

This is an interesting and important idea: we tend not to create sfx for characteristics, assuming that they are self evidentperhaps, but there is no reason you could not require sfx, possibly even encouraging them with minor limitation values: PRE (attractive and charming) or PRE (courageous and inspiring) and PRE (ugly and terrifying) might attract limitation values of maybe -1/2 for 1 and 3, and nothing for the second one, because 1 and 3 are more limited in scope and probably can only be used as PRE defence in limited circumstances.

 

Even if we just hang labels on characteristics and have no real effect on function it can help to define them: DEX 25 (swift and sure) or DEX 23 (perfectly balanced) or DEX 18 (graceful and athletic) can add a lot of flavour in describing how a character moves and looks and might yield the occasional penalty or bonus.

 

Whilst it would be a bit of a strain to have to come up with labels for everything (45 STUN: wide awake ) it could add some colour to have your top couple of stats describes this way. 'sfx'd up'. Bling.