Super Agent Weapon Damage

[Steve]

I am starting up an UNTIL-based super agents campaign in the near future, and I have been pondering the weapon damage issue. In Champions Universe, blasters are written up as 8d6-10d6 EB, and the agents average a 4 ED, 6 points of Armor, and 25 STUN. On the average, one shot and a character is out, but they have taken no BODY damage.

 

I have been considering changing blasters to killing attacks, for more of a "lethal" feel, but I was curious how other GMs who have run super agents campaigns have handled this issue. Do you use killing attacks of 2d6-3d6, or leave them as 8d6-10d6 energy blasts?

[Tom McCarthy]

In my experience in superhero games, the agents need to use normal damage attacks. It's all in the rule of large numbers, and it's the 4-colour genre.

 

For a super agents game, I think you need to look at 6-8 DCs of normal or killing damage. Indeed, I think you might want to try and find the old Dark Champions supplement and its guidelines for damage and defences, and optional combat rules (wounding, flinching, disabling wounds, limited defences, etc.).

 

Completely off topic rant...

 

In a superheroes game, agents aren't scary because one of them can hurt you; rather they are scary because there's so many of them one WILL hit you and hurt you a bit. 10 DC of normal attack is noteworthy because it will do about 32-38 STUN reliably, and cost a hero some STUN. If you go to a 10 DC killing attack, the heroes typically will still shrug off the 11-12 BODY, but with a D6-1 STUN multiplier, you'll frequently get 11-24 STUN (negligible), occasionally get 33-36 STUN (same as normal), and occasionally rack up 48 or 60 STUN (CON stunned or KO'd hero). Either the heroes are afraid of the BODY the agents can do (very workable in Dark Champions, not very 4-colour) or the STUN's what's important, and KA's just have too much variation in STUN damage. If only one agent in 10 hits, I want the hero to feel it but not be KO'd. Normal damage does the job.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy

In my experience in superhero games, the agents need to use normal damage attacks. It's all in the rule of large numbers, and it's the 4-colour genre.

 

For a super agents game, I think you need to look at 6-8 DCs of normal or killing damage. Indeed, I think you might want to try and find the old Dark Champions supplement and its guidelines for damage and defences, and optional combat rules (wounding, flinching, disabling wounds, limited defences, etc.).

 

Luckily, I do own a copy of Dark Champions and An Eye For An Eye, so I can use it for reference. And I do plan on looking over the optional rules for combat. 6-8DCs is about where I was thinking of going, given that I planned to leave armor in the 6-8 range.

 

I was also considering borrowing an idea from the old Ninja Hero comment on samurai armor and guns by maybe making regular Kevlar worth 1/2 value versus blasters and more primitive armor worth 1/4 value. My thought was that super agent armor has something extra in their makeup that resists blaster fire better than ordinary armors.

 

 

Completely off topic rant...

 

In a superheroes game, agents aren't scary because one of them can hurt you; rather they are scary because there's so many of them one WILL hit you and hurt you a bit. 10 DC of normal attack is noteworthy because it will do about 32-38 STUN reliably, and cost a hero some STUN. If you go to a 10 DC killing attack, the heroes typically will still shrug off the 11-12 BODY, but with a D6-1 STUN multiplier, you'll frequently get 11-24 STUN (negligible), occasionally get 33-36 STUN (same as normal), and occasionally rack up 48 or 60 STUN (CON stunned or KO'd hero). Either the heroes are afraid of the BODY the agents can do (very workable in Dark Champions, not very 4-colour) or the STUN's what's important, and KA's just have too much variation in STUN damage. If only one agent in 10 hits, I want the hero to feel it but not be KO'd. Normal damage does the job. [/b]

 

Well, in this campaign, I was planning to use a flat x3 modifier to deal with the STUN lottery.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Steve

Well, in this campaign, I was planning to use a flat x3 modifier to deal with the STUN lottery.

 

I've been doing this in my Champions game for about 6 months now with no complaints.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jhamin

I've been doing this in my Champions game for about 6 months now with no complaints.

It does not bother your players that a Killing Attack does less STUN, on average, than an Energy Blast? My would probably shoot me if I tried to do that.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Monolith

It does not bother your players that a Killing Attack does less STUN, on average, than an Energy Blast? My would probably shoot me if I tried to do that.

 

Well, interestingly enough, since I am using a x3 flat multiplier, if I build the blasters with a +1 STUN multiplier for +1/4 advantage, then an 8DC weapon would do 9 BODY and 36 STUN on the average for the same 50 points that a 10d6 EB would cost and do 10 BODY and 35 STUN. The big difference is that the BODY damage for a blaster designed this way, instead of bouncing off regular ED, requires Armor or some such resistant defense to be worn. While it is almost exactly the same damage, the special effect feels better to me to simulate the type of damage I am looking for without bending the writeups for an UNTIL blaster rifle or pistol out of Champions Universe too far out of shape.

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Monolith

It does not bother your players that a Killing Attack does less STUN, on average, than an Energy Blast? My would probably shoot me if I tried to do that.

 

The trick is, that as soon as you start subtracting defenses from attacks, Killing attacks average MORE stun than EBs, not less.

 

There is, of course, a breakpoint where they are roughly equal. Below that point, EBs average more stun than KAs, but how often do you find yourself attacking targets with negligible defenses?

 

Killing attacks are essentially cheese.

 

$0.02

[Klytus]

IMHO...

 

If you want attacks that are designed to take down heroes without killing them, go with the EB construct. If the agents are out for blood, then us the KA's.

 

Using KA's for STUN is pure cheese. A Killing Attack is meant to KILL THINGS! Killing Attacks are made to chew through barriers and blow holes in people. They do BODY first, STUN second. Energy Blasts (and other normal attacks) do STUN first, BODY second.

 

Besides of which, unless ALL of your heroes have strong Resistant Defenses, somebody is going to start bleeding after thos RKA's start flying. If that is the effect you are after, go for it. But to my mind, UNTIL-style agents, who are trying to capture their foes, would go with Normal attacks. Its the VIPER-style agents that would use the Killing attacks.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Klytus

IMHO...

 

If you want attacks that are designed to take down heroes without killing them, go with the EB construct. If the agents are out for blood, then us the KA's.

 

EBs are fine for a Silver Age style of 4-color comics, where agents are the background opposition. I'm trying to simulate something more like the graphic novels, where blasters are like another form of gun, only with cooler special effects. With an EB, my experience has been that it will throw off a range of BODY damage that will be +/-1 per 3-4d6 used, so an 8d6 pistol will usually do around 6-10 BODY. A normal without armor could theoretically have 8 ED, in which case the BODY damage of a blaster weapon would have an even chance of just bouncing off his skin.

 

Using KA's for STUN is pure cheese. A Killing Attack is meant to KILL THINGS! Killing Attacks are made to chew through barriers and blow holes in people. They do BODY first, STUN second. Energy Blasts (and other normal attacks) do STUN first, BODY second.

 

I'm not sure if you have been reading my previous posts all the way through. To deal with the STUN lottery, I am using a flat x3 STUN multiplier for killing attacks. This brings them into line with regular attacks, which do 3.5 STUN per BODY on the average. My proposal was to cut two damage classes from the UNTIL blaster write-ups, use an RKA instead, and then add in a +1 STUN multiplier. An 8d6 U-SHL pistol will become a 2d6 RKA with a +1 STUN multiplier. You have to wear armor to resist the BODY, and it will do roughly the same STUN and BODY as an 8d6 EB (since an 8d6EB does 28 STUN and 8 BODY, and a 2d6 RKA with an assumed x4 STUN multiplier will do 28 STUN and 7 BODY on the average).

 

Besides of which, unless ALL of your heroes have strong Resistant Defenses, somebody is going to start bleeding after thos RKA's start flying. If that is the effect you are after, go for it. But to my mind, UNTIL-style agents, who are trying to capture their foes, would go with Normal attacks. Its the VIPER-style agents that would use the Killing attacks.

 

Again, this goes back to the whole EB (Silver Age) to RKA (Graphic Novel) difference I am wrestling with. If agents are armed with 2d6 RKA pistols and 6 Def Armor, that gives a more gritty feel than using 8d6 EBs, which would pretty much just work like a stun only attack, assuming 4 ED and 6 DEF Armored agents.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Steve EBs are fine for a Silver Age style of 4-color comics, where agents are the background opposition. I'm trying to simulate something more like the graphic novels, where blasters are like another form of gun, only with cooler special effects. With an EB, my experience has been that it will throw off a range of BODY damage that will be +/-1 per 3-4d6 used, so an 8d6 pistol will usually do around 6-10 BODY. A normal without armor could theoretically have 8 ED, in which case the BODY damage of a blaster weapon would have an even chance of just bouncing off his skin.

If that is the feel you are after, then KA's are the way you want to go.

 

Originally posted by Steve I'm not sure if you have been reading my previous posts all the way through. To deal with the STUN lottery, I am using a flat x3 STUN multiplier for killing attacks. This brings them into line with regular attacks, which do 3.5 STUN per BODY on the average. My proposal was to cut two damage classes from the UNTIL blaster write-ups, use an RKA instead, and then add in a +1 STUN multiplier. An 8d6 U-SHL pistol will become a 2d6 RKA with a +1 STUN multiplier. You have to wear armor to resist the BODY, and it will do roughly the same STUN and BODY as an 8d6 EB (since an 8d6EB does 28 STUN and 8 BODY, and a 2d6 RKA with an assumed x4 STUN multiplier will do 28 STUN and 7 BODY on the average).

Yes, I've been reading this thread the whole way through. My comment about the difference between EB's and KA's was not about the STUN lottery, but in the stated purposes of an EB and KA in an attempt to answer your original question: let your desired end results define what you want the attack to do. Since I did not know (and it appears you do not know either) what this end effect you want is, I was trying to offer you suggestions that might help you with your final decision.

 

Originally posted by Steve Again, this goes back to the whole EB (Silver Age) to RKA (Graphic Novel) difference I am wrestling with. If agents are armed with 2d6 RKA pistols and 6 Def Armor, that gives a more gritty feel than using 8d6 EBs, which would pretty much just work like a stun only attack, assuming 4 ED and 6 DEF Armored agents.

Again, I offer the same advice I did before: what is the end effect you wish to achieve? If you want the heroes to bleed, go with the RKA's. If you want them to take STUN, go with the EB's (maybe add +1d6 to it). If you want both, use the KA's with the high STUN Multiplier.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by Monolith

It does not bother your players that a Killing Attack does less STUN, on average, than an Energy Blast? My would probably shoot me if I tried to do that.

 

Why should it? Killing attacks are optimized to do Body, not Stun. In fact, it's not even true with even dice sets; the stun from the x3 stun multiple is exactly the same on a 4d6 KA and a 12d6 EB for example.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith

It does not bother your players that a Killing Attack does less STUN, on average, than an Energy Blast? My would probably shoot me if I tried to do that.

 

Most of the games I've been part of have used a house-rule modification to make Killing Attacks do exactly that. Unless a target has invested in Resistant Defense all of that Stun damage will get through anyway, and we like that there are tactical benefits and drawbacks to choosing a Killing Attack over a Normal Damage attack or vice versa.