Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

[Legendsmiths]

It always bugged me, conceptually at least, that when a player is knocked out they go to DCV 0 but targeting the hex they are in is still DCV 3. Additionally,

 

There are some subtle issues here and I think, in my mind at least, I've been able to come up with a solution that works for me. Thought I would share.

 

Optional Targeting Modifiers

1. Target DCV or 3, whichever is lower

When Unconscious or an Object DCV is 3 (not 0)

2. Apply Modifiers, maneuver, size, etc.

3. Apply any multipliers for Half DCV

4. Range Mod for ranged attacks at 0-1" is +3

 

Note: Range and size are OCV Mods

Target Size Penalties are halved when Hit Location Penalties are halved meaning that stationary targets have half size penalties

 

Using this method, targeting stationary targets works as follows:

 

Coffee Can (DCV 3, 1/8 size -6 OCV)

Stationary = DCV 2, OCV -3

+1 if Set

So, Average Joe (OCV 3) could hit the can across the room (2-4") on 9-, 10- if he aims (Set), or 13- if he's arm's length to it, assuming he is familiar with the weapon used.

 

This keeps the "DCV 0 for targeting an adjacent Hex" rule in place, essentially, and extends the same treatment to unconscious characters or objects.

 

My assumption with the -6 modifier for size instead of -8 (head sized) is a game balance issue. Size wise, hands should be -8 and the head -6 using the standard size mods, but this is not a big deal for me.

 

Now, perhaps I misunderstand how the rules are to be applied and I'm addressing an issue that doesn't really exist (like that imaginary, dead, purple, turtle I seem to always trip over).

[schir1964]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

It always bugged me' date=' conceptually at least, that when a player is knocked out they go to DCV 0 but targeting the hex they are in is still DCV 3. Additionally,... [/quote']

Perhaps a simpler approach.

 

Since adjacent Hexes are DCV 0 and are only DCV at range, any non-moving object that is smaller than a Hex automatically is considered to have a base DCV of 4.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Edsel]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

The way we've always played it is that adjacent hexes are DCV 0.

At range a hex is DCV 3.

An unconscious human (prone) that is within one range category (4" or less) is DCV 0.

Beyond 4" range a prone human is a smaller target and gains a +4 to DCV and that applies to unconscious (normally DCV 0) characters as well.

If the 0 DCV person is somehow still standing or you are otherwise able to see the whole person (flying above, etc.), then they don't get the +4 DCV for being prone.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

I guess my response to your suggestions Edsel is why are humans at 4" 0 DCV while targeting the hex, which is bigger, 3 DCV? That's where I have a disconnect. It should be no easier to hit an unconscious person at 4" than to hit a hex, prone or otherwise, but a difference of +3 is just too much.

 

I agree with what you are saying about a prone target being smaller, depending on angle.

[Edsel]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

I understand. We probably should be calling the hex a 0 DCV out to 4" as well. I really ought to read the relevant rules to get a clearer picture of specifics on this. Our group usually plays Heroic Dark Champions which doesn't make these situations as common. If someone is down in a DC game you either ignore them or walk over after the battle to deal with them directly.

[Robyn]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

Our group usually plays Heroic Dark Champions which doesn't make these situations as common. If someone is down in a DC game you either ignore them or walk over after the battle to deal with them directly.

 

After the battle? Is this the same Dark Champions game that your player Eosin was recently asking about a "glance away for one moment and he disappears" power for?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

Intuitively, 0 DCV for a hex or a body makes sense. Where I see an issue in some of the logical base is as follows:

 

1. Targeting a stationary hex, DCV 3, is the same difficulty as an aware average man, DCV 3.

 

Actually, I think that's where it breaks down. It is at that point they are equal. If the man feints (DCV 0) he is suddenly easier to hit (which he should be) since he isn't moving or aware. Neither is the hex however (moving or aware).

 

Now, perhaps the logic is that targeting a hex is DCV 3 because you are trying to hit a 2m x 2m horizontal patch of ground, not a 2m x 2m vertical target. In that case I can see that it is possible for the hex and the man to be DCV 3.

 

However, following that logic, the man should then be DCV 3 when he feints unless he is somehow held vertical, in which case he is DCV 0.

 

Target Half Hidden is -2 OCV, Head & Shoulders is -4 OCV. I can see prone as being -3 OCV.

 

Trying to unify this:

 

1. A hex, stationary object, or unsconcious target is DCV 0.

2. Modify OCV for size or Hit Location as normal. Prone targets are -3 for concealment, as is a hex. Half/quarter/eighth/sixteenth (1m - TV, .5m - Microwave, 25cm - Basket Ball/Head, 12.5cm - Glass/Can/Hand, 6.25cm - Cellphone/Mouse, 3.125cm - Finger/Eye/Quarter, 1.21875cm - Finger/Dime) is -2/-4/-6/-8/-10/-12/-14. The size penalty is halved if the target is stationary.

 

Going back to the coffee can example:

 

Coffee Can (DCV 0, 1/8 size -6 OCV)

Stationary = size pen/2 = -3 OCV

+1 if Set

So, Average Joe (OCV 3) could hit the can across the room (2-4") on 11-, 12- if he aims (Set). No change if adjacent.

 

Prone Unc. Guy (DCV 0, Concealment -3 OCV for prone)

Concealment is not modified for being stationary.

So, Average Joe (OCV 3) could hit the guy across the room (2-4") on 11-, 12- if he aims (Set). However, if adjacent the concealment mod goes away and he then needs a 14- or 15- with Set.

 

Prone Unc. Guy's Head (DCV 0, Hit location -8 OCV)

Concealment is not applied since the head is fully exposed and the hit location penalty accounts for the size of the head.

Stationary = hit loc/2 = -4 OCV

So, Average Joe (OCV 3) could hit the guy's head across the room (2-4") on 10-, 11- if he aims (Set) and if adjacent there is no change.

 

Works for me.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

Yeah, this makes attacking a filled hex DCV 0 while an empty hex is DCV 0 with a -3 OCV penalty. Cool.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

I guess my response to your suggestions Edsel is why are humans at 4" 0 DCV while targeting the hex' date=' which is bigger, 3 DCV?[/quote']Here's a thought: what's easier to target, a specific spot in a field, or a pole sticking out of a specific spot in a field?

 

I think the 3 DCV is supposed to represent the difficulty of hitting a point in space without any particular reference object to target on. (In other words, don't target the hex with your area of effect attack, target the manhole in the hex instead.)

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

Here's a thought: what's easier to target, a specific spot in a field, or a pole sticking out of a specific spot in a field?

 

I think the 3 DCV is supposed to represent the difficulty of hitting a point in space without any particular reference object to target on. (In other words, don't target the hex with your area of effect attack, target the manhole in the hex instead.)

 

I think I agree with your logic. The way I read what you wrote I would say it is easier to hit the hex, however. If you are targeting a hex, you are almost always going to have a point of reference... either someone standing IN the hex, or near it. However, I think we end up with the same modifiers:

 

empty hex: -3 OCV (DCV 0, concealment -3)

prone unconscious body: -3 OCV (DCV 0, concealment -3)

filled hex: -0 OCV (DCV 0, no concealment)

standing unconcious body: -0 OCV (DCV 0, no concealment)

 

Which is pretty much the way it works now.

[Flames]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

It makes me think of when I used to play this football-throwing game at the minigolf arcade. I would aim for the hole with the football and miss almost every time. I didn't start to hit the hole until I stopped aiming for the hole itself and aimed instead at the space behind it.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

It always bugged me' date=' conceptually at least, that when a player is knocked out they go to DCV 0 but targeting the hex they are in is still DCV 3. [/quote']

Yeah, that one's always irritated me too. The problem is most of the proposed "fixes" can cause game balance problems. In my "J-Crew" campaign (heroic modern) we used to play that all hexes were DCV 0, range modifiers apply as normal. Worked fine for that game, where area effect attacks were pretty rare (basically just hand grenades) and characters didn't pay points for equipment. But try that in a supers campaign, and all of a sudden a 1-hex AOE attack has an advantage way out of proportion to the cost of the Advantage. Conversely, saying that unconscious characters are DCV 3, rather than 0, might work for a supers game. But in a heroic campaigns where NPC DCVs range from 3-5 anyway, it doesn't make sense.

 

My solution: grit my teeth, suspend my disbelief, and play the rule as written because IMX in makes for the best gaming.

 

Now' date=' perhaps I misunderstand how the rules are to be applied and I'm addressing an issue that doesn't really exist (like that imaginary, dead, purple, turtle I seem to always trip over).[/quote']

No, the turtle is real!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hex DCV vs. Helpless Player DCV

 

That was my point that an empty hex is a -3 OCV penalty for concealment - it's hard to hit a specific point on a field. If the hex is filled, then there is no penalty, just like if a person (helpless) were frozen still, standing (DCV 0).