Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

Because we don't like the system but want the genre.

 

D&D can be very easily considered it's own subgenre of Fantasy.

 

That includes its style of Magic which is pretty integral to how the D&D style fantasy genre operates.

 

TB

True - but I view the system (with all its flaws) as integral to the D&D genre.

 

Once you start adapting other systems to be more like D&D, you start realising that flavours are missing and changed.

 

It's like adapting a book to film

 

[edit]

 

For example - each edition of D&D is of a slightly different genre. If you run a campaign under one edition it will feel quite different if you run it under another edition.

If you run it under another system - it will be even less like the genre you are comfortable with.

[Peter_Knutsen]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

That's a D20 problem, not a Hero problem.

Hero Magic fits into the Hero Rules quite nicely. Whichever flavor you're using.

 

Some D&D spells are particularly stupid. Remove Disease, for instance, is a low-level spell that can cure any one disease per casting.

 

Healthy game designer's instincts says to always have a "progression" of such spells, so that you have an easy spell (easy to learn, easy to cast) spell for ordinary diseases, a harder spell for serious diseases, and a very hard spell for really nasty dieases.

 

I mean... contemplate the world impact of a very easy-to-learn (and easy-to-use) spell that can cure any disease. Not only will the end product not resemble the European middle ages, it won't resemble any world from written fantasy either (ignoring, of course, D&D-specific fiction).

 

This philosophy, or rather lack of philosophy, is part of the reason why D&D spells of the same level will often total up to widely varying values if re-built in Hero System. Probably the main reason.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

World design was not the reasoning behind the invention of D&D.

Make stuff that sounds cool and hope to retcon it latter.

[tesuji]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

 

Some D&D spells are particularly stupid. Remove Disease, for instance, is a low-level spell that can cure any one disease per casting.

right which means disease is fairly handleable as a threat *after* you reach a certain level. DND is in part themed as an ongoing evolutionn of challenges, not about just having tougher versions of the same challenge.

 

Healthy game designer's instincts says to always have a "progression" of such spells, so that you have an easy spell (easy to learn, easy to cast) spell for ordinary diseases, a harder spell for serious diseases, and a very hard spell for really nasty dieases.

this reall depends on whether or not you WANT disease to play a significant role as a challenge or not. As adversaries go, disease is pretty boring. Its not particularly action oriented. the much better "action story" is finding what is spreading the disease and killing it. DnD is about action, which is why poisons and diseases and curses are handles fairly straightforward with one-two spells a piece while curing and combat have dozens.

 

or put another way, think of how many times in shows ands films the doc is struggling in lab to cure patient" is quickly highlighted and resolved without much show while the gunfight or helocopter chase scene goes on forever...

 

I mean... contemplate the world impact of a very easy-to-learn (and easy-to-use) spell that can cure any disease. Not only will the end product not resemble the European middle ages, it won't resemble any world from written fantasy either (ignoring, of course, D&D-specific fiction).

in a great many fantasy novels, disease was never mentioned, was simply not a factor in the dramatic events being portrayed at all.

 

 

This philosophy, or rather lack of philosophy, is part of the reason why D&D spells of the same level will often total up to widely varying values if re-built in Hero System. Probably the main reason.

 

its not a lack but an actual focus. DnD deliberately focuses on action oriented stuff quite a bit and tends to downplay the rest quite a bit. HERO doesn't necessarily have a less action focus but its point driven scheme may make some effects very expensive even if they recieve very little in play benefit.

 

payijng a lot of points for a "BIG cure disease spell" isn't likely to be done by a PC/player in HERO either, unless he has reason to believe disaease wiol play a significant role... that the campaign is "about disease" in some way. IMO charging a lot for the ability just because diseases are usually high active point powers isn't a better solution or a more histoirical design or a "more well thought out design" inherently.

 

Honestly, in most cases, i wouldn't expect to see it tht much as a PC/player spend unless multipower rules are used and allow spell slots for "cheap spell variety".

[Midas]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

If you're playing in a campaign where the goal is to kill monsters and steal their magical shinies, you're correct -- Chaos Blades is inappropriate for the campaign. The GM has a responsibility to tell the player that that character concept is inappropriate for this game.

 

But not all fantasy games are standard dungeon crawls (and nor should they be).

 

My error, oh Lepus Profundus. There should have been a segue line between the paragraph and the one you are quoting.

 

FH: player: "I want to run a magician."

GM: "OK, um...what kind? What spells do you think you should have? Do you want them with a no armor limitation?" etc.

 

 

The current edition is some better. The book lists twelve potential backgrounds for magic campaigns, but they are half way sketches. The problem is that the ref doesn't know quite what to do with things. Take for example the Highlander inspired "Chaos Blades" setting. "You're born with magic. You may take a bunch of rivalries and hunteds, and the psy limit "hunting." Your powers are intrinsic, no foci. Have fun."

 

 

The problem is, the more you develop a campaign, the harder it is to fit into someone else's pre existing world. Chaos Blades in a good example. Suppose the adventure is a standard dungeon crawl. The designer stocks it with plenty of goodies in the loot pile: A magic sword and armor, a ring, a chemeleon cloak, and a few scrolls. All well and good, right? But remember in Chaos Blades, there are no magic foci. The best you can get is an outstanding example of smithcraft: like a master worked sword. The rest of the goodies have to be replaced by something useful, but not magical. The ring might be a signet ring, the scrolls important letters or contracts, the cloak...um...a ninja suit?

 

Midas

 

The point I was making in the last paragraph is that sometimes an otherwise very good scenario can't be used in a specific campaign because it doesn't fit within the design. For a different example, say you were running Chaos Blades, and got ahold of The Hobbit, written up as a quest adventure. Orcrist, Glamdring, Sting, and the Mithril shirt could be statted as none magical examples of mythic level smithcraft. The Arkenstone (which had specific powers anyway) could be just a really cool shiny bauble. But that ring of invisibility? Well there we have a problem.

 

But getting back to the point of character creation, yes, the ref has a responsibility to give the player an outline of what a magician is in the campaign, but herosystem requires a mutual "sculpting" session between the player and the ref: "OK, I've explained to you the basis of magic, now you explain to me how you concieve your character within that framework."

 

It's quite a bit more involved than "OK, I rolled a three for my hitpoints, and I want magic missile for my first spell."

 

Midas

[Midas]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

That's always an issue, but it's much less work to make those changes than to come up with a detailed scenario from scratch.

 

The other thing I was thinking about is that published adventures give the added value of shared experience. Look at the D&D adventure nostalgia thread in the General Roleplaying forum--all us Hero gamers trading stories about how we got through Tomb of Horrors or the G1-3 Giants series. And we trade stories, too, about Island of Dr. Destroyer. Why can't Fantasy Hero have this?

 

Re your first point, yahbut it reaches a point of deminishing returns, where you have to scrap/refit such a portion of the scenario that it is better to just take the floor plan and forget trying to fit the plot into your world.

 

I have an old module, The Clockwork Mage, at hand. I like the module (told ya I had a quirky sense of humor) but converting it to Hero would be a nightmare.

 

First, regardless of how well it fit into your campaign, it is of the old "deathmarch" style, where every fifty feet, a bit of attrition takes place. Not that much of a problem in DnD, where a 1d6 random attack can be shrugged off, but the entire manor house would have to be explored in combat time in Hero.

 

Now, after you've updated the module, you have to decide if you are going to allow any or all of the following into your campaign:

 

A villian/patron with a dragon for a follower.

The concept of assembly lines and mass production.

Robots from "Room Brooms" up to Data/Rommie level capabilities.

Successful characters getting their own personal Andromeda for solving the module.

Constantly open gates to all over the continent.

 

Just off the top of my head.

 

Yes, you could just not use the module, but we're going on the assumption that you were going to try it in the first place.

 

Or you could throw out everything except the floor plan and say "cool manor house," or go slightly better and say "OK, The Clockwork Mage's manor is repelling all visitors, who wants to go see if anything has happened to him?"

 

Or you could do a line by line edit...

 

Re nostalgia: The "Viper mini-campaign" springs to mind. That construction site sure got blown up, a lot.

 

Midas

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

I'm not even sure you can say the magic system is integral to D&D any more, since they now have something like nine different magic systems, what with all the new books they keep coming out with. There's "arcanum" and "psionics" and "soulbinding" (not to be confused with "soulmelding") and "truenaming" and "shadowcasting" and "invocations" and "infusions" and the "regular" forms of magic, which include the arcane and the divine, the prepared and the spontaneous.

[CUnknown]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

I have a very good (at least in my opinion) system for converting D&D to Hero that keeps everything that makes Hero the best system out there, while incorporating the feel of D&D. I have most of the files posted on Hero Central.

 

I agree with the original poster about Fantasy Hero having some problems that need solving. I think my system solves some of these issues.

 

I disagree with the people who say "If you like D&D so much, why are you playing Hero?" Saying that is missing the point--Hero is an obviously superior system, mechanically, but it can be dry and soulless. In fact, it was intended to be that way. It's the "Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit" after all. Toolkits by their nature are pretty dry and in need of fleshing out. D&D has a feel that many people grew up with, and it just makes sense that when they discover Hero, they'd want to play D&D using Hero rules.

 

Sometimes, in order to get D&D to fit into the Hero structure, I just straight-up cheated. But, rules are obviously made to be broken, nothing bothers me more than a game system that makes certain rules "mandatory." Well, not nothing.. I'm sure nuclear war would bother me more than that. But, you know what I mean.

[Cantriped]

Re: Fantasy Hero Problems and advantages

 

Well personally, I grew up with DnD too (literally), but in my personal oppinion I don't like 90% of the Dnd-Hero conversions I've seen, mainly because they spend all their time trying to import it's already cludgy mechanics (which is why I stoped playing in the first place) in such a way that the system becomes even MORE cludgy.