Super Origins

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

You could say if the Hulk Clone didn't have the defenses to negate "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" then the Batman Clone was exploiting his weakness.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Super Origins

 

Would it be such a betrayal of the character concept to give such background justifications to the Bat-clones, when they are supposed to drop Hulk clones with batrangs or karate chops ??

 

I think it would. To me one of the kewlist things about Batman is that he is a normal human that rises to the level of these godlike beings. In a way he represents us. I love your Thors, Supermen and so on. But the thing that is kewl about the Batman archetype is that he is not "handed" abilities. He has to work hard and be smart to be victorious.

 

Of course batman could never exist, but that is why comics are awesome. Thats why they fill a need not filled by Sci-Fi, Fantasy and what not.

 

Here is a quote from Stephen King's "Danse Macabre"

 

"whenever I run into someone who expresses a feeling of, "I don't read fantasy or go to any of those movies; none of it is real," I feel a kind of sympathy. They simply can't lift weight of fantasy. The muscles of the imagination have grown too weak".

 

Comic Superhero stories are about "possibilities" not skepticism. What if a person could fly? What if a person could be smart enough and well-trained enough to be equal to a god like superhero?

 

I studied martial arts for about 8 years and it always makes me laugh when people talk about realism when comparing different movies and comics. Batman is not even close to a realistic depiction of the martial arts. Niether are Jet Li movies. Even the stars of these Kung fu flicks will say this is not what real fights are like.

 

But I love them.

 

Why?

 

because they are freakin kewl! Who wants to see Neo and Agent Smith roll around on the ground like some UFC fighters? Who wants to see Superman nock Batman's brains out? (well maybe Wanderer) Not me. Where is the entertainment in that?

 

Again, everyone has there own taste but I like to spend hours justifying mine.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Super Origins

 

David had a helluva high Divine Aid to characteristics. He was no more "mundane" than Hercules or Gilgamesh. Again' date=' having Divine assistance misses the point: you are no more "mere human", and I see no problem in you dropping giants.[/quote']

 

Dewd that is hilarious, your anal gaming mind completely destroyed the meaning of a biblical moral! David was... us. The idea is that we all have Divine Aid! The moral is that we can all defeat giants.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Super Origins

 

You could say if the Hulk Clone didn't have the defenses to negate "Vulcan Nerve Pinch" then the Batman Clone was exploiting his weakness.

 

Back in the '70's, we got Bats vs Hulk. Bats used gas pelets. "Hulk is not stupid - Hulk hold breath!" Bats counters by swinging out of the gas (so he's not easily seen), then swinging back in with al the momentum he gan gain to plant both feet in Hulk's stomach. The Hulk's not hurt, but he does exhale, then promptly (and reflexively) inhale.

 

Seems as reasonable as many things in comics.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Super Origins

 

Even Karate Kid, a "Galactic Champions" level Martial Artist was only able to -almost- defeat Superboy in combat and breifly restrain a Kryptonian.

 

 

Yeah, lots of thows, and a massive martial grab..enough to hold superboy - talk about lotsa extra DCs.

[ayinde]

Re: Super Origins

 

i dont ban anything but i do have a "gander" rule. it works as follows

alien tech: its high tech to .....you.

i'm an alien: ya ever seen invader zim. your at best a example of a rank alien there are many of your race who are better than you

i use magic, super tech ,im a super soldier: if there are notes it can be copied:eg: also notes can be improved:shock: :shock:. no notes you say? guess i would need a sample:think: now where can i joe villain find a sample

im a mutant: no you're a monster now where did i put that torch and pitchfork

i have multi-origen: no no no no you cheesy @#%#@ no if you want another origin build it over a few games

 

what im saying is what ever origin you take will have pitfalls and will effect the game. I figure as long as you can explaine your idea to me its playable but it will never be easy

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

I think it would. To me one of the kewlist things about Batman is that he is a normal human that rises to the level of these godlike beings. In a way he represents us. I love your Thors, Supermen and so on. But the thing that is kewl about the Batman archetype is that he is not "handed" abilities. He has to work hard and be smart to be victorious.

 

Of course batman could never exist, but that is why comics are awesome. Thats why they fill a need not filled by Sci-Fi, Fantasy and what not.

 

Here is a quote from Stephen King's "Danse Macabre"

 

"whenever I run into someone who expresses a feeling of, "I don't read fantasy or go to any of those movies; none of it is real," I feel a kind of sympathy. They simply can't lift weight of fantasy. The muscles of the imagination have grown too weak".

 

Comic Superhero stories are about "possibilities" not skepticism. What if a person could fly? What if a person could be smart enough and well-trained enough to be equal to a god like superhero?

 

I studied martial arts for about 8 years and it always makes me laugh when people talk about realism when comparing different movies and comics. Batman is not even close to a realistic depiction of the martial arts. Niether are Jet Li movies. Even the stars of these Kung fu flicks will say this is not what real fights are like.

 

But I love them.

 

Why?

 

because they are freakin kewl! Who wants to see Neo and Agent Smith roll around on the ground like some UFC fighters? Who wants to see Superman nock Batman's brains out? (well maybe Wanderer) Not me. Where is the entertainment in that?

 

Again, everyone has there own taste but I like to spend hours justifying mine.

 

I see what you mean, why is heroic spirit, intense focus, brains and near fanatical devotion any "sillier" of a mean of developing superheroic abilites than when most if not all the abilties displayed in comics are at best implausible in the first place?

 

It all boils down to taste. We all like different but saying one is objectively worse or childish given the nature of the medium seems a bit much.

[Kali Magdalene]

Re: Super Origins

 

Origins that place world shaking technology in private hands are generally not permitted in my non-comedy games. If your character invented a unique suit of armor that lets him teleport, thanks to an irreplaceable Implausibilium Alloy, great. If he stole the suit from Company X, then you're sticking me as the GM with the problem of why Company X doesn't just build another Teleport Suit. I don't much care if you did steal the blueprints and destroy all the backup disks containing key research on how the suit works; all that can and will eventually be replaced. I'll still have to decide how that tech will affect my game world.

 

Just out of curiosity, why is world-shaking technology in private hands a problem? In your example, it seems that either Company X could build another suit, which could be a fun complication, or Company X couldn't (you stole the blueprints, trashed the files, etc), in which case they're out to get you.

 

For that matter, don't the iconic supertech characters own their own technology? I mean, Tony Stark invented the Iron Man armor, he didn't steal it from Stane Industries. Bruce Wayne owns the company that produces his bat gadgets. Reed Richards seems to keep a tight hold on most of his inventions - they're too dangerous to let most people make use of them. Tony Stark has very good reasons to not distribute his iron man tech at will and still sells high tech stuff to the government.

 

I'm not seeing why having advanced technology is a bad thing.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Super Origins

 

I'll note that the Super Soldier Serum didn't increase Captain Amerca's abilities to "superhuman" levels but to the "peak of Human ability" (what ever that exactly means..) Unless that has been retconned at some point. His abilities are amazing but not what never character couldn't potentially acheive through intense training and/or fanastic focus.

 

"Peak human" changes every couple of years as athletes set new world records for speed and strength.

 

Once upon a time Cap could bench 600 lbs and be considered peak human. In the 80's it was 800 lbs. As of last year, it's over half a ton.

 

That said, Cap does have superhuman levels of endurance (body eliminates fatigue toxins), is immune to most diseases and some poisons (like alcohol) and can run around 60 mph.

 

So arguably he does have some low level super powers, since peak human running speed is currently just under 23 MPH.

 

The question is: can Batman or any other "normal" reach such heights in multiple (often times exclusive) disciplines through just training and still be considered "normal"?

 

There are, after all, only so many hours in a day...

[assault]

Re: Super Origins

 

(since for my peace of mind' date=' I wouldn't touch the concentration of hard-core Silver Age childish silliness that hosted such luminaries as Matter-Eater Lad and Bouncer Boy with an NBC suite ).[/quote']

 

Ah well. Arrogance and ignorance? A charming blend.

 

As most of us know, the LSH was, before it jumped the shark back in the early '90s, consistently amongst the finest Silver, Bronze and Iron Age material out there.

 

Even the comedy characters were both real heroes, and genuinely entertaining. In fact, Matter Eater Lad was at his peak during the 1989-1993 period. This was, of course, the same period that saw the previously bright LSH future collapse into war and economic depression, culminating with Earth being blown up...

[assault]

Re: Super Origins

 

The question is: can Batman or any other "normal" reach such heights in multiple (often times exclusive) disciplines through just training and still be considered "normal"?

 

There are, after all, only so many hours in a day...

 

It is impossible for any human to do what Batman does, obviously. It is also impossible for any human to do what a whole bunch of heroes do in non-superheroic genres.

 

Batman is a cinematic/legendary/mythological hero. He is human in the same sense as Robin Hood or King Arthur. Or King David.

 

Nothing else is required for him to be able to do what he does.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Super Origins

 

The question is: can Batman or any other "normal" reach such heights in multiple (often times exclusive) disciplines through just training and still be considered "normal"?

 

There are, after all, only so many hours in a day...

 

I think Champions handles this pretty well by having a "normal characteristic maxima" of twenty yet their is a catagory above this called "Legendary" that comes before the "Superhuman" catagory. Legendary is beyond what most normals can achieve but not quite enough to be classified as Superhuman. To me Bats would have a legenday Dex and Int for example... where some shmo like me could maybe reach a stat of 20 with a lot of work.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Super Origins

 

The only thing I do not allow is a silly origin. The reason is that even when I used C.L.O.W.N. I redid the C's back story so as to make them less silly and more with the conventions of my game world.

 

To be honest I want the powers to be part of the game world, to conform to the 'metaphysics/science' of my created reality. If someone wanted to play a silly C, that's fine, but the origin must fit with the cosmology of the reality.

[nexus]

Re: Super Origins

 

"Peak human" changes every couple of years as athletes set new world records for speed and strength.

 

Once upon a time Cap could bench 600 lbs and be considered peak human. In the 80's it was 800 lbs. As of last year, it's over half a ton.

 

That's pretty much my point. Cap's origin doesn't make him as "superhuman" in most respects just at the peak of what humans can possibly accomplish and he can perform feats that rival what many "mutants" and ostensibly super humans can. Which is why I said "whatever peak human efficency means". Wanderer's issue seems to be with "mere humans" competing with "superhumans" (by which I imagine he means beings with superhumans powers). Captain America, which he lists as exception is in the human range according to his definition just at the very top end of it, backed by immense drive, determination and skill. The Super Soldier serum, in meta game terms, was just the plot device that let him leap frog the "Years and years of intense training" other types of human type characters have to go to reach those levels.

 

The question is: can Batman or any other "normal" reach such heights in multiple (often times exclusive) disciplines through just training and still be considered "normal"?

 

There are, after all, only so many hours in a day...

 

In the real world? No way. Can I accept they could in a comic book universe a human being can acheive mythic status through sheer training and determination? I sure can. Its no sillier a justification that having than beign a "mutant" giving you the abiity to control the weather (and some pretty impressive, sometimes 20+ attributes in Hero varying according to write up) or any of other things you have to accept in a comic book, or comic based rpg.

 

Batman, Karate Kid, etc, are not "normal", they are heroes, mythic figures, legends, not Joe Generro who spend a few extra hours in the dojo and the library on the weekend. They aren't realistic but nor is any figure in a comic book. In game why doesn't everyone do this? All peole don't have the drive and dedication to rise above the ordinary, perhaps don't have the same degree of potential and innate talent to do so without some "boost" (alteration, "Super Soldier" serums, etc).

[OddHat]

Re: Super Origins

 

Just out of curiosity' date=' why is world-shaking technology in private hands a problem? In your example, it seems that either Company X could build another suit, which could be a fun complication, or Company X couldn't (you stole the blueprints, trashed the files, etc), in which case they're out to get you.[/quote']

 

In my standard campaign, when Company X builds one more teleport suit, it's a fun complication. Five or ten years down the line (a length of time that passes in my campaigns), I need to deal with the implications of everyone having teleport technology. As that's not something I want to do, I require that the tech be irreproducible. Thus, it works but requires a shell of pure Implausiblium. In a more silver age game, or a campaign specifically designed to look at the effects of Supertech, conditions would be different.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Super Origins

 

The only thing I do not allow is a silly origin. The reason is that even when I used C.L.O.W.N. I redid the C's back story so as to make them less silly and more with the conventions of my game world.

 

To be honest I want the powers to be part of the game world, to conform to the 'metaphysics/science' of my created reality. If someone wanted to play a silly C, that's fine, but the origin must fit with the cosmology of the reality.

 

I agree,the tone of the campaign is important. If someone brings me a character that seems like it should be in an episode of The Tick then I would have to pass. (Though I've thought aboout running a Tick-like one-shot game)

[casualplayer]

Re: Super Origins

 

Let's see, no aliens: buh-bye Supes, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman and Hawkman. No hyper-trained: buh-bye Batman, Green Arrow and Black Canary. No Mary Sues: buh-bye Wonder Woman and Zatanna. That pretty much accounts for the whole JLA. Except that each character transcends their origin.

 

I do like to have input on the origins of my players. I warn them that anything they leave undefined is mine to play with and they can't be More Trouble Than They Are Worth. If the character is MTTTAW, that's a warning sign that the player may be also.

 

BTW, Karate Kid is a super-saiyan with a haircut. He is the bomb-diggety, well at least until Waid got a hold of him.

[Corven_Ren]

Re: Super Origins

 

Personally the only thing I do not allow is gods.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Super Origins

 

Now I'm going to go write up an alien mutant billionaire industrialist with magical nanite armor.

 

He fights crime!

 

But only if the victims are other rich industrialists.

 

(Imagine all the following in Harvard {Thurston Howell III} accents)

 

Biff: "Tad! Muffy! Come quickly! Look at the television!"

 

Tad: "Isn't that a new set? Color's good, though."

 

Muffy: "Oh, yes! And see how fine the resolution is."

 

Biff: "No! I mean see what's on the screen! Some criminals are robbing a bank!"

 

Tad: "The devil you say! How dreadful!"

 

Muffy: "Why, Tad! I do believe that's your bank being robbed."

 

Tad: "Why so it is. Those dastards!"

 

Muffy: "Really, Tad. Such language!"

 

Biff: "Do forgive me for leaving early, but I just remembered some instructions I must give to my broker." [Hastily exits room.]

 

Tad: "That Biff! Always coming and going. The grass will never grow under his feet."

 

Muffy: "Well, that is how he became a Billionaire Industrialist®."

 

Tad: "Oh, look! Someone is arriving at the bank! I do believe it's that famous Alien Mutant© superhero Moneyman™.

 

Muffy: "How the sun does sparkle on his Magical Nanite Armor®."

 

Tad: "Not quite dear. I believe those sparkles are the robbers' bullets bouncing off his armor."

 

Muffy: "Oh, dear. Isn't he being a bit rough with those robbers?"

 

Tad: "Don't trouble yourself over it dear. They're working-class. They're used to such treatment."

 

Muffy: "That's the last one! And there he goes, flying off into the distance just like last time. He's so mysterious. I wonder who he could be?"

 

[butler enters room]

Butler: "Mawster Biff has returned."

 

Biff: "Silly me! Right after I left I remembered I had given my broker those instructions earlier today."

 

Muffy: "Biff, you did it again. While you were attending to affairs of industry, Moneyman™ saved our bank!"

 

Tad: "That's right! Every time Moneyman™ saves the day, you're off on business."

 

Muffy: "Poor Biff. He'll never see Moneyman™ at this rate. Cocktails anyone?"

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Super Origins

 

Personally the only thing I do not allow is gods.

 

Meh! I'll allow almost anything so long as it comes in under budget, doesn't unbalance the campaign, and doesn't assume the character will be worshiped as such by anyone he didn't spend the points for.

[GrooveD70]

Re: Super Origins

 

Id probably allow it, but the hero would be only be a weakened (350pt) avator of the God. He would gain more power as he/she became worthy. Yeah that soundz good!

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

I think it would. To me one of the kewlist things about Batman is that he is a normal human that rises to the level of these godlike beings. In a way he represents us. I love your Thors, Supermen and so on. But the thing that is kewl about the Batman archetype is that he is not "handed" abilities. He has to work hard and be smart to be victorious.

 

Of course batman could never exist, but that is why comics are awesome. Thats why they fill a need not filled by Sci-Fi, Fantasy and what not.

 

Make no mistake, this transhumanist still feels a very deep appreciation for the character concept you describe. It's only that I can appreciate it fully when its empowerment is expressed in ways that do not punch my suspension of disbelief in the eye: magicians to me are the perfect expression of the "transcendant human" who pulled oneself to godlike status by talent and effort. I have no difficulty whatsoever to accept that Dr. Strange and Zatanna can hold their ground with Thor and Superman. Likewise, I have no difficulty when martial artists with very high power levels are justified by using exotic training regimens that tap supernatural (inner, like chi, or cosmic, doesn't matter) power sources and allow them to do outlandish stuff a la Fist of the North Star or Supersayan: after all, when Resplendent Path of Infinite Power routinely allows you to shoot fireballs, spit steel in twain, and cause random body parts to explode with a touch, it is but high-fantasy magic with martial arts trappings. It's quite fine and I have no trouble with a Supersayan holding their ground with a Superman. But then I wish to see the wild wuxia/anime feats to justify it. Or, to use an high-tech comparison, Neo is another excellent example of the "transcendent human" archetype, and I would no problem with accepting a comics character based on him, who can just hack normal reality instead of just machine reality. But I would wish to see him doing "his Superman thing" as justified by him being a reality-hacker, not because he "knows Kung Fu" really well.

 

It's not about the concept, it's about the means they use: the Batmans, Green Arrows, and Hawkeyes offend my suspension of disbelief (and hence cause me to deem them silly and obnoxious) in ways that the Dr. Stranges, Kens of Hokuto, and Neos do not. "Training oneself to the peak of mere human perfection" IMO means you still rank quite, quite low in the meataphysical power totem pole and you stand ready to be utterly crushed when you dare mess with your betters that have transcended humanity. Being the best pathetic human still leaves you a pathetic human. A human CAN raise quite, quite above, but then he needs abandon mortal trappings and limitations, transcend humanity, and uplift oneself into the realm of the gods.

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

im a mutant: no you're a monster now where did i put that torch and pitchfork

 

Please wait a moment while I don my Magneto uniform; nothing like a bigot lynching mob crushed to pulp early in the morning to brighten my day

[Wanderer]

Re: Super Origins

 

I see what you mean' date=' why is heroic spirit, intense focus, brains and near fanatical devotion any "sillier" of a mean of developing superheroic abilites than when most if not all the abilties displayed in comics are at best implausible in the first place?[/quote']

 

If your heroic spirit, intense focus, brains, and devotion drive you to transcend human limitations and tap Ultimate Cosmic Secrets of Power , you have my blessings. Otherwise, don't expect that playing with batrangs and arrows will let you anything else than a pathetic would-be pretender and a beating to happen at the hands of those who *truly* realized human potential.

[Tim]

Re: Super Origins

 

Great post!

 

You must spread rep around yada yada.

 

I think it would. To me one of the kewlist things about Batman is that he is a normal human that rises to the level of these godlike beings. In a way he represents us. I love your Thors, Supermen and so on. But the thing that is kewl about the Batman archetype is that he is not "handed" abilities. He has to work hard and be smart to be victorious.

 

Of course batman could never exist, but that is why comics are awesome. Thats why they fill a need not filled by Sci-Fi, Fantasy and what not.

 

Here is a quote from Stephen King's "Danse Macabre"

 

"whenever I run into someone who expresses a feeling of, "I don't read fantasy or go to any of those movies; none of it is real," I feel a kind of sympathy. They simply can't lift weight of fantasy. The muscles of the imagination have grown too weak".

 

Comic Superhero stories are about "possibilities" not skepticism. What if a person could fly? What if a person could be smart enough and well-trained enough to be equal to a god like superhero?

 

I studied martial arts for about 8 years and it always makes me laugh when people talk about realism when comparing different movies and comics. Batman is not even close to a realistic depiction of the martial arts. Niether are Jet Li movies. Even the stars of these Kung fu flicks will say this is not what real fights are like.

 

But I love them.

 

Why?

 

because they are freakin kewl! Who wants to see Neo and Agent Smith roll around on the ground like some UFC fighters? Who wants to see Superman nock Batman's brains out? (well maybe Wanderer) Not me. Where is the entertainment in that?

 

Again, everyone has there own taste but I like to spend hours justifying mine.