The downsides of the Iron Age

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

If only for the fact that the Cap clone isn't pictured as an "hero", he's the typical hyper-Eeevil "I butcher babies in the morning for practice" iron Age expendable villain that has a bullseye in the chest from first frame. As an Avenger fan, I may agree about the dubious taste of producing a bunch of genocidal goons as obvious Avengers clones, but that's the dark side of Millar for you: in his Anti-American obsession, he feels the need to paint the most "official" of American heroes pitch black.

 

He's painted as being typical of that world and Authority themselves are kind of -ew- in a number of ways as our alleged heroes mention in the series. The world itself is kind of sleazy and its "heroes" jump in with both feet in most cases.

 

Fetish, what fetish ? I can think of *one* instance, where she tries to bed (and goes unfulfilled, no less, poor girl, as he falls asleep ) an allegedly "teen" hunky superhuman that is obviously well above the age of consent (as drawn, he looks like senior or college freshman to me). A single one-night stand a fetish for young flesh doth not make.

 

It does when they been going at it for awhile (they're actually caught in Gen 13...) and its mentioned as her perference. That wasn't the first time and not just with Grunge.

 

Notwithstanding all the interesting kinky possibilities that are implied in Angie's metamorphic powers, I utterly failed to notice all the kinkiness you mention. Surely the failure of my porn-hardened mind to notice the nuances For the standard of the comic, they looked rather subdued to me.

 

Then you weren't playing attention, particularly to some of her exploits as mention in at least one of the mini series or their penchant for sneaking sneaking semi public sex in the White House. I guess you could call them "subdued" by relation to the utter extreme...but that's part of my problem with the handling of sexuality in the comic.

 

Yep, that was a truly bizarre plot development. I chalked it to the willingness of the author to amaze with a gratuitous twist "These Auhtority chaps are so ruthless, now we'll amaze you with a completely undeserved act of mercy" and laziness, as in "this character is just too gorgeous, I can't allow it to get the summary death she so richely deserves, so I'll get her a random Get-In-Heaven-Free card", which is indirectly sex-related (she gets spared because of her sex appeal). And having sex (someone in the team will bed her, and more sooner than later) with the former spirit of murder is rather kinky, so I concede this is rather kinky.

 

Well, that and her other exploits casually mentioned like what happened with a certain 60 year old that fortunately she was able to bring back to life....

 

You know, when I first read the story, I thought "Oh great, now they are going to have a pedophile controversy, too". But the more I read on, the more it made a bizarre sense. After all, she is the reincarnation of Jenny Sparks, she's a near-goddess (no much point in applying human strict standards), and she does it by her own perfect free choice. If she prefers to trade away a few years of childish innocence to jump-start herself in the joys and tribulations of adolescence, who can daresay her ? After all, it's a typical fantasy of children, and she has the godlike power to do it right.

 

YMMV, but just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you the wisdom to use that power well. She's effectively still a child, just a child walking around in a teen ager's body.

 

Hmm, I dare hypothesize that the thing that annoyed you wasn't even the pervasivess, it was the purposeful way it gets shoved in your face, like a political statement, because that's the way it is, at least for Millar.

 

It was far too prominent (and really served no purpose but shock value) and you get slapped in the face with it too much though to be fair Millar does the same thing with violence and politics. Like those once you've used something for shock value, you have to top yourself so you end up ratching things up to practical self parody. Took a good Iron Age series and pretty much flushed it down the toilet, IMO.

 

Gotta re-read Ultimate X-men more carefully, so far my main attention in the setting was for Ultimates, so I can't comment on the X-Men characters you mention. Gotta just mention I very much appreciated the way they treated the budding Spiderman-Shadowcat romance, very tender, and in general, the way the subject is treated in Ult. Spiderman. For all that we are talking about teens and their supposedly raged hormones, the issue was kept rarther subdued. Likewise for Ult. Fantastic Four. No Jenny Sparks and her musical chairs bed here.

 

Which would be why Ultimates ranks higher on my preferneces. I don't mind sexual content even explicit as long its doesn't read like it was written by giggling Jr High kid (or the mind of one).

[Vestnik]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Possibly an occasional corrupt politician in the Golden Age pre Pearl Harbor, doubt you found many, if any, during the War.

 

And what about General Ross? While fanatical, I never saw that he was corupt (back in the Lee-Kirby days). He reminded ma a lot of Curtis LeMay, first commander of SAC and one of the architects of the Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine. Tell the story without Rick Jones as the point-of-view character, and Ross becomes the hero, the soldier trying to protect America from a nuclear menace in human form.

 

As time goes by and we got closer to Bronze age, he went rogue, rather than following orders he had become Ahab with the Hulk as his own White Whale, pursueing his own agenda rather than following orders. He became Bronze age before Bronze age was cool.

 

Wasn't Superman originally potrayed as a leftie? Fighting corrupt anti-labor bosses and stuff like that back in the 30s?

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Wasn't Superman originally potrayed as a leftie? Fighting corrupt anti-labor bosses and stuff like that back in the 30s?

 

Yup. Many of his early adventures were re-treads of the Gladiator novel, Doc Savage stories, and Shadow stories (see Al Schroeder's Schroeder's Speculations, or just go to the primary source material). Didn't really become an "establishment" Hero until the 50s, and he wasn't portrayed as a lickspittle of the establishment until Miller's Dark Knight, so far as I'm aware.

[Vestnik]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Yes, I understand the super-punches and all that... but it just strikes me as kind of silly to dress like a hooker to fight crime.

 

They can go undercover and work vice?

 

"Hey Mr. Fantastic, wanna party?"

 

"I don't usually do this kind of thing, but I'm having problems with Sue, and the stress of having Galactus on my ass all the time is driving me to drink. OK, I left the Fantasticar around the corner, will 50 be enough? I'll hate myself in the morning."

 

"BUSTED!! The Fantastic Four's going down!"

 

Now, that IS an Iron Age plot.

[Vestnik]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Yup. Many of his early adventures were re-treads of the Gladiator novel' date=' Doc Savage stories, and Shadow stories (see Al Schroeder's [i']Schroeder's Speculations[/i], or just go to the primary source material). Didn't really become an "establishment" Hero until the 50s, and he wasn't portrayed as a lickspittle of the establishment until Miller's Dark Knight, so far as I'm aware.

 

I wonder if the guys who did the alternate history where Kal-El lands in the Soviet Union had that in the back of their minds.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I wonder if the guys who did the alternate history where Kal-El lands in the Soviet Union had that in the back of their minds.

 

Wouldn't surprise me. The idea is really a pretty good twist on the character's roots.

[Remjin]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Yes, of course I was making sarcastic humor, sorry if I forgot the emoticon. Yes, I'm basically trying to find lame excuses for the fact I love cheesecake, but... if you are as individually powerful as top-end superheroines that love the cheesecake outfit (e.g. WW, Ms. Marvel), who's going to dare criticize them ? Remember the old gorilla joke. After all, such heroines (but in many ways the argument could be enlarged to male heroes, too, with their skintight spandex or leather outfits) have typically near-perfect athletic bodies, captivating longeve beauty, aggressive self-confidence and some of an exibitionist streak (as psychologically implied by their career choice of showoff crusaders), and no reasonable fear of bodily harm from 99% of mankind. Why shouldn't they, amongst all, flaunt it ? The kind of conservative morality that would taboo it is, as others have pointed out, often the ideology of the enemy in such comics. Actually, I would expect it that to a degree, use by high-profile celebrity hero(ines) would glamorize such clothing styles. In a realistic society, super-heroes and -heroines would be the absolute celebrities and role models, in ways unsurpassed even by our celebrity-obsessed society. In so many ways, they would become ideals: undreamed-of personal power, heroic, glamourous lifestyle, popularity, physical beauty, who's going to daresay them ? It wouldn't be "superheroines dressed like hookers" anymore, it would be "hookers dressed like superheroines". It would become a kink, like nurses. Yep, conservatives and traditional organized religion would still howl, but they are the implied or acknowledged enemy anyway, and I would daresay that in a realistic society full of godlike mutants, aliens, not to mention the apparent return of mythological gods, the appeal of traditional organized religion would be seriously diminished anyway.

 

Anyway, I can picture hordes of teenage girls and young women fantasize to be, and dress like, the superheroines. It wouldn't be demeaning because it would become empowering. If the 800-pound gorilla fancies a pink tie, wearing a pink tie is cool.

 

 

 

You're absolutely right. I'm not trying to justify their carss greed, I was just pointing out an additonal reason why they have done it. Sometimes they have done it basically right (Ultimate Universe), sometimes less right (Onslaught, the myriad confusing DC Crises).

 

No need to apologize, I just wanted to state that so that my perspective was clear and all that. I love discussions here, and would hate to have things go awry because of textual obscurities. (yikes, do those last two words make sense?)

 

Honestly, I never thought of the celebrity status angle, and there is certainly something there. I never had much use for all that, personally, and find the "glamorous" exposure of flesh to be extremely trite. Extremely tittilating and enjoyable, but trite. Same for the supposed holders of our morals, the fighters for justice, etc... again, I don't mind the flesh. Afterall, as you stated, superheroes are the very embodiment of perfection, but I think I see flaws as flattering to the rest, e.g. Cindy Crawford's mole, and the flaunting is again.. just trite. Do I see people dressing that way, given the things you mentioned? Yes. Do I understand why all of them dress that way? Not really, outside of marketing. For once, I'd like to see superheroines wearing something utilitarian once in a while. Mix it in with the cheesecake, and its all good, just for varieties sake. Variety.. yeah.. that's really the issue, I guess, for me. Again, let me reiterate.. I'm not morally opposed, just aesthetically and character-wise, I find it trite. =)

 

I agree on the destruction of the universe thing... I'm all for doing it if it means it comes to good stories and cleaning up, etc... I hated the ones I endured because they came across as marketing only... with no real basis in telling a good, new story.

 

And wow... I didn't realize this was going to become so popular a thread.. sheesh... 3 more pages to read.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I think ghost-angel posted something awhile back about how cyberpunk was about being heroic in the face of how dark and crappy the world is. I think I'd enjoy more Iron Age stuff if the writers kept that in mind.

 

Or to put it another way: I think it was Busiek wrote that the reason you deconstruct something is to put it back together again, hopefully better than before, or at least in a new way. Alan Moore deconstructed superhero comics brilliantly back in the 80s. Nearly twenty years later, we're still waiting for someone to put them back together again...

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

YMMV' date=' but just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you the wisdom to use that power well. She's effectively still a child, just a child walking around in a teen ager's body.[/quote']

 

We play it more for laughs, but basically one of our PCs is an alien who is an alien shapeshifter who is 4 years old but is interacting as an adult human with the world. He's naive and askew from the world - and so is his soul mate. I was just mentioning her (we never really clarified the precise gender roles but basically they are aping male and female human roles, er, sort of) as she had rampaging implied-gonzo sex with the Punisher semi-off-screen (nothing explicit mentioned in terms of details, but basically lots of loud banging and related property damage). We could take all this in an Iron Age direction questioning age and morality and so on but we take a more, I dunno, I guess a sort of "Steel" take in that there's the reality of aping and explornig human sexual conventions by aliens who are completely in a quite different developmental place than humans of either their apparent or actual age, but it's not played for any heavy purposes. Although it's had some heavier roleplaying in other, non-sexual but social implications, when Sammy (the PC) was thrown out of his mentor PC's house as the mentor PC, Nexus, saw Sammy as too self-absorbed, capricious, and disobedient to risk his family's safety with. Nexus even questioned Sammy's free will, musing that as far as he can see Sammy is "simply" (bear in mind Nexus has an ungodly intellect, >200 INT at top value) a super-imitative organism with perhaps nothing but instinct as its motivational driver, sparking an emotional and at times angry (in character) debate among the PCs. This occurred via email and was one of the outstanding moments of the campaign (if interested, it can be read at http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/x-champions_issues/46_47_sowing_the_seeds.htm, but there's a lot there before this part, just search on that page for "In mid-February, one day when Sammy returns home, to the Sihn residence, he sees an odd sight. A crew is demolishing Eliot and Ayla's house and loading the debris into a large truck. All of Sammy's belongings have been neatly assembled into a pile on the front lawn," which is where that story starts (PPS - Ayla is Nexus' wife, so that you have context)).

 

(PS - eventually, Sammy and the Sihn family really did make up, and Sammy now visits the Sihn household regularly again)

 

(PPPS - also, apologies for some of the mistakes in the write-up, I was just reviewing and mainly it's cut-and-paste errors from the various emails, but it's nothing substantive, and can't fix it at the moment)

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Yup. Many of his early adventures were re-treads of the Gladiator novel' date=' Doc Savage stories, and Shadow stories (see Al Schroeder's [i']Schroeder's Speculations[/i], or just go to the primary source material). Didn't really become an "establishment" Hero until the 50s, and he wasn't portrayed as a lickspittle of the establishment until Miller's Dark Knight, so far as I'm aware.

I think even earlier Superman was sent down the lickspittle path. Dark Knight Returns, while not going over the top at all (IMHO), paints a picture of a Superman almost hostage to the US government, a troubled man who does this only because it does still allow him to save lives but feels, clearly, somewhat emasculated. Although we do understand he's no slave as he (does this really count as a spoiler? be warned..)...

 

 

at the end is willing to keep Bruce's secret and doesn't betray that Batman didn't really die

 

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I think even earlier Superman was sent down the lickspittle path. Dark Knight Returns, while not going over the top at all (IMHO), paints a picture of a Superman almost hostage to the US government, a troubled man who does this only because it does still allow him to save lives but feels, clearly, somewhat emasculated. Although we do understand he's no slave as he (does this really count as a spoiler? be warned..)...

 

 

at the end is willing to keep Bruce's secret and doesn't betray that Batman didn't really die

 

Yup. I did mean Returns, not Dark Knight Strikes Again.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Yup. I did mean Returns' date=' not Dark Knight Strikes Again.[/quote']

I understand - I was just speaking to an example of the slide from the strong establishment supporter to lickspittlle as to the steps in-between, 'sall.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I don't buy or read comics anymore, at first it was a matter of not having the money to buy them anymore. Now I just don't want to read of a 'Superhero' that is as bad or worse than the villian they fight.

 

To me 'Iron Age' or rather 'Rust Age' comics don't do anything for me. If I want to read about Super's don't 'bad' things then I wouldn't call them Supers.

 

Now I read in its time the so-called Superheroes that Penthouse Comix, yes they spelled it with the x, put out. Most where very sexual in the writing and art but even then the heroes were heroes. Different but HEROes.

 

If you want to write Supers as being sexual beings......do it, but make them still be heroic not some kind of sexual criminal pretending to be a HERO. I find what I dislike most about what I have read of 'Rust Age' I don't like. The story is full of dead, usually only for the shock value and not for any real reason.

 

I know some people do like 'Rust Age' but I don't. Now do I have any C's that might be 'Rust Agers', no. The one C that I do have that comes closest to it is a Wolverine homage, but even he won't kill unless he has to, he hates to take life not out of any moral reason, but that if you have to kill when you fight you have failed to be a HERO.

[input.jack]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

You see, there is a fatal flaw in your argument: the lack of an universally agreed upon definition of heroes and heroism. To a degree, some Iron Age characters fall outside any minimally decent definition of heroism, you are right about them, but in other cases, they just fulfill a different concept of heroism. To make a typical example, the Authority characters fulfill my personal ideal of heroism in ways that traditional superheroes never did nor probably could.

 

It's OK to desire an idealistic streak in superheroes, but let's remember that ideals may definitely differ. The hero of some is a villain to others and viceversa.

 

I hope I didn't sound polemic, I just wanted to highlight an obvious counterargument.

 

I see what youre saying, but to me The Authority are a classic example of Psychoes with Powers, and NOT Super Heroes (Especially later in their run). Anyone who seems to fall back on "Kill them" as their solution to ANY old problem they run into is NOT a hero.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

We play it more for laughs' date=' but basically one of our PCs is an alien who is an alien shapeshifter who is 4 years old but is interacting as an adult human with the world.[/quote']

 

There does seem to be a difference. The character you mentioned is an alien, different psychology and development not a human chilfd indulging in an inverted Peter Pan fantasy. I don't think the idea in and of itself is wrong, I think it was handled poorly and the degree to which the sexual angle was focussed on was in poor taste. Like many things in the later run it wasn't a bad idea in theory but the execution was poor and seemingly meant solely to shock value. I've had similar things come up in a couple of game, specfically Jane, a force grown clone that had the body of a teenaged girl was emotionally more like an 7-8 year old child and Eve an artifically intelligent robot without about the same issue.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I see what youre saying' date=' but to me The Authority are a classic example of Psychoes with Powers, and NOT Super Heroes (Especially later in their run). Anyone who seems to fall back on "Kill them" as their solution to ANY old problem they run into is NOT a hero.[/quote']

 

I respect your preferences, but I have to point out that the main thing that leads me to see Authority guys as heroic ideals preferable to four-color heroes isn't their attitide on lethal force (more on that later), but the fact that they are stubbornly determined to defy laws, authorities, and the socio-political status quo in the name of an higher call to make the world a better place. I'm especially fond of two quotes that sum up the reasons why I love the comic and its heroes so much "Guys that are able to hear atoms splitting shouldn't ignore cries for help from torture chambers" and "This has to be a world worth saving, for us to keep putting our lives in the line for it". I love them for being heroic rebels, not for being killers.

 

As for the killing angle, I concede that their enthusiasm for killing may be rather offputting sometimes, but then again, the opponents they usually fight are such rotting scumbags with no redeeming features that if I were out in their shoes, I'd quite likely administer the same kind of summary justice at the end of super-strong-punch or energy blast, albeit maybe with less constant posturing and bravado. I've always thought that if G-d would eventually do the right thing and bless me with cosmic superpowers , one thing high in the top-100 things to do, it would be to hunt down and summarily execute all mermbers of Al-Quaeda and similar organizations in front of cameras, so I feel it would be hypocrite to apply a different standard to comics characters. IMO, the main problem with the albeit offputting easiness and frequence they kill, is the fact it is contrived that almost all of Authority's opponents end up being such deeply eeevviil scum, and it's the lazy easy way out of moral dilemmas for the author to set up things so, but that's another story. Apart from questioning the opportunity, their violence by itself does not impress me, though. I do not believe in extreme pacifism, so I rather appreciate heroes that are willing to kill when necessary. As for the graphic shock impact, it's nothing that I haven't seen in countless Hollywood action movie flicks, transposed in superheroics.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

He's painted as being typical of that world and Authority themselves are kind of -ew- in a number of ways as our alleged heroes mention in the series. The world itself is kind of sleazy and its "heroes" jump in with both feet in most cases.

 

The world of Authority is quite -ew- in several areas, one of the most important being the fact that almost anyone the Authority fights, from politicos to high-end supers, aliens, etc. gets to be such an extreme scumbag crossbreed of genocidal cannibalistic child abuser that you cannot but cheer up for their summary execution. But sex is rather tame and sane, in the comparison.

 

It does when they been going at it forawhile (they're actually caught in Gen 13...) and its mentioned as her perference. That wasn't the first time and not just with Grunge.

 

Well, my reading of Gen 13 was quite spotty and rather ago, so I wield to your superior knowledge, oh Master of Continuity So she has a taste for young flesh. I can see it may look offputting to some, and it's kinky, but it doesn't violate my moral standards, though (as long as it's teens and it's consensual), so it probably fell under my radar anyway. Grunge definitely looks me as old enough to know when and by whom he wants to be bedded, so if he fancies older women too, they have my blessing, pass along the condoms. Ok, two kinky bits.

 

Then you weren't playing attention, particularly to some of her exploits as mention in at least one of the mini series or their penchant for sneaking sneaking semi public sex in the White House.

 

The same Bill Clinton White House ? Well, I'll have to dig up and reread the TPBs where they get to be the committe acting U.S. presidents, to make a full judgement, I suppose that is the story arc you are referring to. They are a loving steady couple, and the combination of a buff brick and a gorgeous metamorph, they'd had to do something extreme in bed to impress me. Which miniseries ? After taking a glance to the horrid Kev stuff, I largely ignored most of the non-regular series stuff.

 

YMMV, but just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you the wisdom to use that power well. She's effectively still a child, just a child walking around in a teen ager's body.

 

Hmm, I remember we somehow argued the issue in the superheroic morality thread, and my opinion about the case stands,

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1230258&postcount=96

 

essentially it matters whether she has got a teen ager's mind as well. From what I can see in the last story arc, she definitely has, and a precocious older teen at that: the attitude, the urges, the maturity, the planning capability, the self-control. I know it looks paradoxical and mind-boggling (actually it's a typical case of the ontological time-travel paradox) that she pulled all the right mindset from nothing, but Jenny Quantum, like the Doctor, is a demigoddess, so she has the power, and from what I've read she has pulled the trasnformation well without any bad psych side effects. If a goddess decides it's right for her to skip some years of human development, and she apparently does it flawlessly, who am I to judge she hadn't the right ? What do you see as still "childish" in her ?

 

Frankly, it was both. It was far too prominent (and really served no purpose but shock value) and you get slapped in the face with it too much though to be fair Millar does the same thing with violence and politics. Took a good Iron Age series and pretty much flushed it down the toilet, IMO

 

I can see your points, but probably I'm too fanboy-biased to Millar and his political stances, to share them, and my guilty pleasure tastes are too much more in tune with sex sleaziness and hyper-violence to be shocked. I see the drawbacks but I'm still too forgiving to the author that made immortal quotes such as "Guys that are able to hear atoms splitting shouldn't ignore cries for help from torture chambers" and "This has to be a world worth saving, for us to keep putting our lives in the line for it", which I've waited all my comic fan career to read, not to be willing to forgive him much worse. Although his geological times in finishing Ultimates 2 have tried my patience almost to the point of snapping.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The same Bill Clinton White House ?

 

Yep and it was eyerollingly tasteless then as it was in comic... but commenting more on that will take this thread swiftly into NGD territory.

 

Hmm, I remember we somehow argued the issue in the superheroic morality thread, and my opinion about the case stands,

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1230258&postcount=96

 

I beleive that was more you and another poster. I stayed out of that one because I saw your stand point on it was MUCH different than mine and a constructive discussion was unlikely.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Honestly' date=' I never thought of the celebrity status angle, and there is certainly something there. I never had much use for all that, personally, and find the "glamorous" exposure of flesh to be extremely trite. Extremely tittilating and enjoyable, but trite. Same for the supposed holders of our morals, the fighters for justice, etc... again, I don't mind the flesh. Afterall, as you stated, superheroes are the very embodiment of perfection, but I think I see flaws as flattering to the rest, e.g. Cindy Crawford's mole, and the flaunting is again.. just trite. Do I see people dressing that way, given the things you mentioned? Yes. Do I understand why all of them dress that way? Not really, outside of marketing. For once, I'd like to see superheroines wearing something utilitarian once in a while. Mix it in with the cheesecake, and its all good, just for varieties sake. Variety.. yeah.. that's really the issue, I guess, for me. Again, let me reiterate.. I'm not morally opposed, just aesthetically and character-wise, I find it trite. =)[/quote']

 

I rather see your point, when I'm able to pull my mind from the gutter Yes, I would expect at least some of the gorgeous Iron Age superheroines to indulge some more utilitarian suites, which I would expect to come out mostly as jumpsuites and conbat fatigues. However I would still expect them to lean more in the direction of revealing skintight coveralls than of baggy stuff. And as a matter of fact there are roughly as many top-ed superheroines that go the skintight coverall route (es. Ultimate sue Storm, Jean Grey) than the skimpy cheesecake (Ms. Marvel, WW). I don't think the baggy look will ever come much in vogue: it is less aestethically pleasing (in a non-sexual way, too) and more hard on the drawer. As for the IC angle, I cannot see why superhumans should ever adopt the baggy look. The way superheroes and superheroines typically dress (or undress) is also a show of individual power and dominance (yep also the cheesecake, why do you think dominatrixes dress in a similar way), which it fits their attitude and career choice quite well. They aren't politicos and corporate executives whose power comes from social approval and hance need to be reassuring in business suits, their power comes from within, so why don't flaunt it ??

 

 

Again, I know that I' making excuses for fanservice, but there are decent IC reasons too why superheroes and superheroines typically show up in the skintight latex coveralls, leather, or cheesecake (sorry, I don't know the male equivalent idiom) instead of baggy coveralls, business suits, or priest cassocks. They can do it (they are on the top of the social pole), they look good in it (for a number of reasons, they all get drawn with perfect physiques, and IC getting superpowers for whatever reasons goes with a perfect physique and remarkable beauty, typically I excuse it as a side effect of superhuman genes), it typically feels good to flaunt what you have, and it's a good power/dominance statement.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I see what youre saying' date=' but to me The Authority are a classic example of Psychoes with Powers, and NOT Super Heroes (Especially later in their run). Anyone who seems to fall back on "Kill them" as their solution to ANY old problem they run into is NOT a hero.[/quote']

I dunno, I think some settings provide ample justification for the "kill 'em if they're a problem," it's just not the superheroic one. I think lots of Westerns operate well enough with this, as an example (though I wouldn't disagree it's the lazier course of writing than the Gunsmoke-style Western drama which is much more satisfying). Of course, in such settings, the bad guys are always clearly marked and labelled, and problems are never generated by good guys.

 

Just sayin'.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

There does seem to be a difference. The character you mentioned is an alien' date=' different psychology and development not a human chilfd indulging in an inverted Peter Pan fantasy. I don't think the idea in and of itself is wrong, I think it was handled poorly and the degree to which the sexual angle was focussed on was in poor taste. Like many things in the later run it wasn't a bad idea in theory but the execution was poor and seemingly meant solely to shock value. I've had similar things come up in a couple of game, specfically Jane, a force grown clone that had the body of a teenaged girl was emotionally more like an 7-8 year old child and Eve an artifically intelligent robot without about the same issue.[/quote']

Absolutely, I was just reminded is all.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

snipped -

 

... the fact that they are stubbornly determined to defy laws, authorities, and the socio-political status quo in the name of an higher call to make the world a better place.

 

 

Wouldn't bin Laden or Mussolini have said the same?

 

My point is simply that I don't think this defines heroism, per se. It defines an admirable quality that underlies being heroic - but heroism (to me, or, rather, at least superheroism) is as much about personal sensitivity (in effect, even if motivations are askew) and the means being at least as important as the ends, or at least both points being considerations as part of the heroic mindset (i.e., a hero can still be a hero and make tough choices, but the point is that it's a tough choice, not an irrelevant factor).

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

"Superheroes don't kill people; they save people!" -- Stan Lee, Who Wants to Be A Superhero?

 

Actually, I don't have a problem with superheroes that are willing to kill. Heroes should at least be portrayed as reluctant to kill, but I've always thought the CvK, at its extreme, is one of comics' sillier convention. ("Lemme get this straight, Reed. You're honestly saying we have to save Galactus' life, even tho it certainly means the deaths of uncounted millions of innocent lives?! Seriously?!")

 

I don't even have a problem with protraying superheroes as real human being, warts/kinks and all. But I'm not interested in watching or reading about a bunch of sociopaths with superpowers.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Wouldn't bin Laden or Mussolini have said the same?

 

How so very, sadly true. Welcome to two unconfortable truths: any villain is the (misunderstood) hero of his/her own tale, and ultimately, there is no such thing as absolute truths in morality. It's like mathematics, it all depends on the initial arbitrary value assumptions one makes.

 

My point is simply that I don't think this defines heroism, per se. It defines an admirable quality that underlies being heroic -

 

Indeed it doesn't, even in my definition. My own wholly arbitrary general definition of heroism is someone that is willing to sacrifice or put oneself to risk to advance the common good. I simply define superheroes as heroic people with superhuman powers.

 

but heroism (to me, or, rather, at least superheroism) is as much about personal sensitivity (in effect, even if motivations are askew) and the means being at least as important as the ends, or at least both points being considerations as part of the heroic mindset (i.e., a hero can still be a hero and make tough choices, but the point is that it's a tough choice, not an irrelevant factor).

 

Well, I might agree, so far as personal sensitivity does mean dedication or at least willingness to continued self-inquiry of one's actions and choices, and the attention that means do not wholly destroy the means do not become paralyzing bleeding-heart squeamishness to do the right or necessary thing for the greater good, which IMO is wholly unheroic. And I like to see moral dilemma to develop about "tough choices" that resonate as such according to my own sensibilities (e.g. this sweet innocent little girl is the beacon through which Chtultoid horrors are about to step into our world, in dire straits do I toss her through the portal to Hell to prevent them from crossing over; even if I plan to rescue her later, or I join her to protect, can I send an innocent to Hell). According to the my sensibility, some supposedly "tough choices" of comics are non-issues: to make a classical example, IMO the "natural" reaction to the modern, serial-killer version of the Joker is to rip out his heart and walk away whistling, the only case when an hero should be wringing his hands about it is the doubt that by killing him one might risk to do a worse harm to innocents (e.g. maybe he may resurrect more powerful than ever). I dislike complete sociopaths, but I also dislike shrinking violets who agonize anytime absolute scumbags meet their richly deserved fate.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

"Superheroes don't kill people; they save people!" -- Stan Lee' date=' [i']Who Wants to Be A Superhero?[/i]

 

With all the respect for the master, I do prefer "superheroes save people and kill people - who deserve it".

 

Actually, I don't have a problem with superheroes that are willing to kill. Heroes should at least be portrayed as reluctant to kill, but I've always thought the CvK, at its extreme, is one of comics' sillier convention. ("Lemme get this straight, Reed. You're honestly saying we have to save Galactus' life, even tho it certainly means the deaths of uncounted millions of innocent lives?! Seriously?!")

 

I absolutelty agree, even if for intellectual honesty's sake, I have to point out that you know, the truly perversely funny thing is that even according to an Iron Age morality, Reed was right in what he did, even if his CvK motivations were oure crap. Saving Galactus was indeed the right thing to do, since his continued existence was necessary to ensure the survival of the universe, which outweights even the zillion body count Galactus has been reaping. But he didn't know it, so he did the right thing for the completely wrong motivation. What a thorny knot.