The downsides of the Iron Age

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Do kids even read comics anymore? The whole industry is aimed at adults; and it stinks of desperation. Huh... weird...

 

None of my nieces and nephews do, and all of them are readers; if bookish kids like that are not reading comics, I doubt many kids are. I'd be shocked if the print side of the industry didn't implode again in 5-10 years.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Do kids even read comics anymore? The whole industry is aimed at adults; and it stinks of desperation. Huh... weird...

 

Looking at my city's comics/RPG/anime store, which kind of doubles for city's unofficial youth center (I sometimes joke to the owner, a good friend of mine, that she should claim a subsidy from the municipality for the civic service she provides), comics still hold a lot of appeal for young people, but the ages have moved: modern youth hooks up with comics in pre-adolescence, adolescence and young adulthood. it's not more about little kids, mainly, it's about pre-teens, teens and college folks. If this gets to be an accurate picture, I'm not worried about the future popularity of the genre: getting a long-term habit, err interest in (pre)adolescence is not that different in consequences from getting it in childhood (teens and college folks have more to spend, and more freedom to buy), and you are just as likely to hook up in both ages. Modern comics are supremely well geared to appeal to the interests of adolescents (what other reason for all the cheesecake), and many people do retain somethging of an adolescent for a long, long time nowadays. The genre has just moved its target age from little kids to adolescents and young adults, that's all.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

My complaint with the Iron Age is this:

 

I dont want my Superheroes to show me who I AM.

 

I want my Superheroes to show me who I COULD be.

 

Who I SHOULD be.

 

I want them to be HEROES.

 

Well put.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

You don't need to engage in all this drama to rationalise punching a Captain America clone in the face. That's just something that happens any time two superhero teams meet for the first time.

 

Quite rue, but this way you can turn out into a drawn-out, long-term struggle. Again, look at the X-Men example. How long has gone this little incestous integrationst vs. supremacist mutant faida ?

 

I take politics seriously in the real world. I don't feel the need to fantasise about it in a game. Particularly since there are things that genuinely make me angry.

 

I don't need this. It's not fun.

 

Of course there's no arguing with tastes. I only feel a little pity for you, b/c I'm able to take politics quite seriously, but I can also draw a lot of catharthic fun from seeing JLA or Avengers clones invade Iran-lookalikes or overthrow Bush clones. Probably in the same way that the contemporaries of my grandfathers enjoyed seeing Golden Age supers punch Nazi goons. Maybe it's a guilty pleasure, but still

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Speaking as a moderator, please concentrate on discussion of ideas rather than discussion of one-another in this thread.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

As it concerns the Millar Authority, I'm perplexed about what kinks you are referring to. True, all of them are definitely oversexed and amorous and often promiscous, and they make a point of aggressively flaunting it like a "pride" ideological bit, but... Jenny Sparks is quite promiscous, ditto for the old doctor (he had serious psych problems but it wasn't about sex at all), Jenny Quantum a teen (yep a magically aged little girl, but again she made it by her own will and she seems to have developed a teen mind with the body) who's eagerly about her first time, the Engineer and Jack Hawksmoor are pursuing an "open couple" romantic relationship, Apollo and Midnighter are a long-term monogamous gay married (and divorced, and proabably back together) couple, the new Doctor seems to have a (proabably mutual) crush on Swift, Swift lives the life of the promiscous celebrity, where are those kinks you speak of ? The infamous diesel-powered dildo wasn't about sex, was revenge torture. Desplicable, but no more sexual than killing someone by impaling. They are hyper-violent, but it isn't sexual.

 

Most of the alleged "heroes" of MIllar's world were sexual predators in some fashion, such the blatent Captain America clone with diseal powered dildo... Swift's fetish for underaged boys comes to mind, as does Hawksmoors and Angie's implied and occassionaly demonstrated sometimes over the top kinky sex life, then there's "reformed" Rose Tattoo. There are a few other examples as well but those jump out at the top of the list. The Jenny Quantum is pretty squicky IM.

 

It not so much the use of that kind of material its the pervasiveness. Done well, its an interesting touch, over done and its just tastless shock value. Sensationalism insteand of story value.

 

As for Ultimate Universe, I can't pretend to have a detailed mental picture of all the characters, so please what are the seemingly obvious examples you had in mind ? I can think of just one example, Henry Pym and Janet Van Dyne sharing a sadomasochistic mutually abusive relationship. I don't know if they can be defined kinky, they don't seem to be about a sexual thrill, they just seem to be two psychologically troubled people into mutual sponsal abuse. They seem to genuinally care for each other, though.

 

Well, off the top of my head there's the physical and sexual abuse between Pym and Wasp as mentioned, Nightcrawler being basically a creepy stalker type, Dazzler's implied masochism and Scott's apparently lengthy list of kinks. There are others, many of which occur in Ultimate tiles I don't don't follow except casually.

 

Admittendly the Ultimate line isn't as bad about it. Its mostly implication and inncendo rather than in your face but its still a card thats played too often, IMO, for story that aren't supposed to be focused on sexuality. I don't have an objection to sexual content, my own games are have a great deal but many times this stuff feels grafted on to be "edgy" rather than for story value. There's nothing wrong with titillation but you can take it too far.

[OzMike]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

One thing I dislike about the Iron Age of comics is the rust.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The downside of the Iron Age is massive lethality that never lastingly affects the popular. Why is the Joker still drawing breath in the Iron Age? Why is Sabertooth? The Punisher? The mental gymnastics characters have to do to suddenly discover restraint when they have their archnemesis at the point of a blade, after they have massacred their way through millions of henchmen, makes me ill and outraged.

 

I don't mind Iron Age, but I hate long-earned closure being interrupted.

 

That's one of the things I liked in the Supreme Powers: Nighthawk miniseries.

 

 

When facing the murderous clown-faced killer at the penultimate moment of the comic, Nighthawk doesn't hesitate to shoot the bastard before he has a chance to poison the city's reservoir. And he manages to save the baby, too.

 

 

I believe that Iron Age comics can be (and often are) well-written. The fact that so many aren't isn't a reason to write off the entire genre -- there's a whole lot of golden/silver/bronze age stuff out there that's crap, too.

 

To create a good Iron Age title takes a bold writer with some talent, an audience willing to give it a chance, and (usually) a new character/universe. That's why the Supreme Powers, Ultimates, and the Authority (at least the first 2-3 trades) stuff works so well, IMHO.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I like Supreme Power, Ultimate X-men, The Ultimates (though its getting "preachy") and I like the Warren EIllis run in The Authority. I didn't intent for this thread to be a total write off of the Iron Age. I incorporate some aspects of into most of the campaigns but it has some definite downsides.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

That's one of the things I liked in the Supreme Powers: Nighthawk miniseries.

 

 

When facing the murderous clown-faced killer at the penultimate moment of the comic, Nighthawk doesn't hesitate to shoot the bastard before he has a chance to poison the city's reservoir. And he manages to save the baby, too.

 

 

I believe that Iron Age comics can be (and often are) well-written. The fact that so many aren't isn't a reason to write off the entire genre -- there's a whole lot of golden/silver/bronze age stuff out there that's crap, too.

 

To create a good Iron Age title takes a bold writer with some talent, an audience willing to give it a chance, and (usually) a new character/universe. That's why the Supreme Powers, Ultimates, and the Authority (at least the first 2-3 trades) stuff works so well, IMHO.

 

Well said.

 

I'd especially agree that Iron Age works best when done in its own continuity, using characters "born" and "raised" in the Iron age. Marvelman/Miracleman, Watchmen, the various Iron Age Elseworlds versions of DC characters, the Ultimates lines, Supreme Power, and the Ellis run of Stormwatch and the Authority and Planetary told some great stories. In part they worked because the writers were free to do pretty much whatever they liked with the characters and worlds they had to work with.

 

Civil War is an example of how to do it exactly wrong; taking well established characters and throwing both internal story logic and established characterization out the window.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I like Supreme Power' date=' Ultimate X-men, The Ultimates (though its getting "preachy") and I like the Warren EIllis run in The Authority. I didn't intent for this thread to be a total write off of the Iron Age. I incorporate some aspects of into most of the campaigns but it has some definite downsides.[/quote']

 

I understand completely. There are definitely a lot of downsides/crappy writing in the Iron Age. A lot of it is gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous (I'm looking at you, Liefield!). I'm just saying (and I think you agree) that there are some real gems out there, and they're worth seeking out.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I understand completely. There are definitely a lot of downsides/crappy writing in the Iron Age. A lot of it is gratuitous for the sake of being gratuitous (I'm looking at you' date=' Liefield!). I'm just saying (and I think you agree) that there are some real gems out there, and they're worth seeking out. [/quote']

 

Yep, every genre has its gems and its drek and which is which largely depends on who you ask.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I know this is a tangent, but, anyway, I find the whole "Ages" thing a bit of a distraction and diversion, given the relatively young age of what we call comic books and that the various ages have all been (at least in my eyes) a gradual building upon each other.

 

In general, I think the best of comics, regardless of the state of comics in general, continue to get better. The beauty and maturity of, for example, Ross' big book Captain Marvel tale rests on a combination of Silver Age style simple heroism and morality while its impact resides with a more mature treatment shaped by a couple decades of increased sophistication and understanding that a simple tale <> a simplistic or sophomoric one. The term "Steel" well exposes the "alloyed treatment" that more mature comics provide.

 

Personally, I would like to see more superhero comics that concentrate solely on the personal lives of supers, such as Alias or the wonderful short story contained in the Bizarro hard cover book where 2 female supers, one still a super-career woman and the other a retired now-housewife, talk over coffee.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I like Supreme Power' date=' Ultimate X-men, The Ultimates (though its getting "preachy") and I like the Warren EIllis run in The Authority. I didn't intent for this thread to be a total write off of the Iron Age. I incorporate some aspects of into most of the campaigns but it has some definite downsides.[/quote']

 

As for the Ultimates it is changing writers for Vol 3 (Loeb woohoo), so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

And as someone who has commented before about the vileness of the darkside of the Iron Age, I read and enjoy the Ultimateverse, Supreme Power/SS, and Planetary.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

 

Personally, I would like to see more superhero comics that concentrate solely on the personal lives of supers,

 

Go Astro City!

 

Or the first One Year Later Superman which was almost completely Clark and Lois and them having a couple of normal days.

 

Or the old Busiek Iron Man story about a guy that works for stark industries in the motor pool, both as a sdriver and mechanic, because his dream is to be in the iron man armor, and puts in a transfer to do that every year.

 

Busiek is a master of telling the personal stories behind the super-action.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Here's a question related to Nexus' original post for anyone -

 

Do you feel differently about Iron Age non-supers as opposed to Iron Age supers?

 

For example, although I never did finish reading the ending of the series, I thought that despite (perhaps even because of) its over-the-top nature, Preacher was really good, at least the first 2/3rds of its run. And of course many felt the same. But I think many would not have appreciated such an approach with a supers comic.

 

Thoughts?

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Go Astro City!

 

Or the first One Year Later Superman which was almost completely Clark and Lois and them having a couple of normal days.

 

Or the old Busiek Iron Man story about a guy that works for stark industries in the motor pool, both as a sdriver and mechanic, because his dream is to be in the iron man armor, and puts in a transfer to do that every year.

 

Busiek is a master of telling the personal stories behind the super-action.

Yeah, I have read a bit of that, I need to read more.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Sturgeon's Law: startdate Jan 3, 2007....

 

 

so 90% of all comics are crap. 10% are really good.

Of that 90% some is horrid. That's what I'm going to talk about.

 

At it's worst, Golden Age comics were jingoistic morality plays where it's immoral to be a foreigner.

At it's worst, Silver Age comics are acid trips with permanent pictures to prove you were there.

At it's worse, Bronze Age comics are boring soapoperas bemoaning one social injustice after another.

At it's worst, Iron Age comics are profanity laced, S&M Snuff books with a high volume of leather and low IQ's. Moralistic Whining a "plus".

At it's worst, Modern Age comics are written by Mark Millar, and edited by Joe Quesada. I could throw DC's staff in there too.

 

 

At least in my opinion.

I like good stories. But in my opinion good stories include (particularly for the superheroic genre) a) Heroism, decent art, c) an interesting plot d) good, believable dialog, and e) a quasi-logical conclusion.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

And what about General Ross? While fanatical, I never saw that he was corupt (back in the Lee-Kirby days). He reminded ma a lot of Curtis LeMay, first commander of SAC and one of the architects of the Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine. Tell the story without Rick Jones as the point-of-view character, and Ross becomes the hero, the soldier trying to protect America from a nuclear menace in human form.

 

As time goes by and we got closer to Bronze age, he went rogue, rather than following orders he had become Ahab with the Hulk as his own White Whale, pursueing his own agenda rather than following orders. He became Bronze age before Bronze age was cool.

 

Well, I would have called him "obsessive" rather than fanatical, at least at first, but that aside this is exactly what I was going to say. Rep for you.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

There were so many things I wanted to comment on... but I can't get past the deisel powered dildo.

 

 

 

[Doug McCrae]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Do you feel differently about Iron Age non-supers as opposed to Iron Age supers?

The 'Ages' terminology only applies to superhero comics. Stuff like The Yellow Kid, Gasoline Alley, Peanuts, EC Comics, Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers and Eightball lie outside those classifications.

[death tribble]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I agree on the dirty government bits and the shock value. Yes and the big gun is a power.

 

But also is the lamentable writing cf Liefield on Youngblood and Miller on Wanted.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Most of the alleged "heroes" of MIllar's world were sexual predators in some fashion' date=' such the blatent Captain America clone with diseal powered dildo... [/quote']

 

If only for the fact that the Cap clone isn't pictured as an "hero", he's the typical hyper-Eeevil "I butcher babies in the morning for practice" iron Age expendable villain that has a bullseye in the chest from first frame. As an Avenger fan, I may agree about the dubious taste of producing a bunch of genocidal goons as obvious Avengers clones, but that's the dark side of Millar for you: in his Anti-American obsession, he feels the need to paint the most "official" of American heroes pitch black.

 

Swift's fetish for underaged boys comes to mind,

 

Fetish, what fetish ? I can think of *one* instance, where she tries to bed (and goes unfulfilled, no less, poor girl, as he falls asleep ) an allegedly "teen" hunky superhuman that is obviously well above the age of consent (as drawn, he looks like senior or college freshman to me). A single one-night stand a fetish for young flesh doth not make.

 

as does Hawksmoors and Angie's implied and occassionaly demonstrated sometimes over the top kinky sex life,

 

Notwithstanding all the interesting kinky possibilities that are implied in Angie's metamorphic powers, I utterly failed to notice all the kinkiness you mention. Surely the failure of my porn-hardened mind to notice the nuances For the standard of the comic, they looked rather subdued to me.

 

then there's "reformed" Rose Tattoo.

 

Yep, that was a truly bizarre plot development. I chalked it to the willingness of the author to amaze with a gratuitous twist "These Auhtority chaps are so ruthless, now we'll amaze you with a completely undeserved act of mercy" and laziness, as in "this character is just too gorgeous, I can't allow it to get the summary death she so richely deserves, so I'll get her a random Get-In-Heaven-Free card", which is indirectly sex-related (she gets spared because of her sex appeal). And having sex (someone in the team will bed her, and more sooner than later) with the former spirit of murder is rather kinky, so I concede this is rather kinky.

 

There are a few other examples as well but those jump out at the top of the list. The Jenny Quantum is pretty squicky IM.

 

You know, when I first read the story, I thought "Oh great, now they are going to have a pedophile controversy, too". But the more I read on, the more it made a bizarre sense. After all, she is the reincarnation of Jenny Sparks, she's a near-goddess (no much point in applying human strict standards), and she does it by her own perfect free choice. If she prefers to trade away a few years of childish innocence to jump-start herself in the joys and tribulations of adolescence, who can daresay her ? After all, it's a typical fantasy of children, and she has the godlike power to do it right.

 

It not so much the use of that kind of material its the pervasiveness. Done well, its an interesting touch, over done and its just tastless shock value. Sensationalism insteand of story value.

 

Hmm, I dare hypothesize that the thing that annoyed you wasn't even the pervasivess, it was the purposeful way it gets shoved in your face, like a political statement, because that's the way it is, at least for Millar.

 

Well, off the top of my head there's the physical and sexual abuse between Pym and Wasp as mentioned, Nightcrawler being basically a creepy stalker type, Dazzler's implied masochism and Scott's apparently lengthy list of kinks. There are others, many of which occur in Ultimate tiles I don't don't follow except casually.

 

Gotta re-read Ultimate X-men more carefully, so far my main attention in the setting was for Ultimates, so I can't comment on the X-Men characters you mention. Gotta just mention I very much appreciated the way they treated the budding Spiderman-Shadowcat romance, very tender, and in general, the way the subject is treated in Ult. Spiderman. For all that we are talking about teens and their supposedly raged hormones, the issue was kept rarther subdued. Likewise for Ult. Fantastic Four. No Jenny Sparks and her musical chairs bed here.

 

Admittendly the Ultimate line isn't as bad about it. Its mostly implication and inncendo rather than in your face but its still a card thats played too often, IMO, for story that aren't supposed to be focused on sexuality.

 

Again, I may have to re-read some Ultimate series, but that wasn't absolutely my impression. The amount of sexual content didn't strike me with the force and pervasivity of say the political commentary. It seemed to me a plot element among many. After all, these is about handsome/beautiful teens and young adults with healthy athletic bodies, big-city high-risk active glamorous celebrity lifestyles, I got to expect some serious amount of bed activity as natural, until it ain't to displace the fight and plot development scenes, it ain't to bother me. To a degree, it's realistic.

 

I apply the same standard that I apply to a modern TV series, as long as the amount of romance and sex related plot elements aren't going to corner the other plot developments, I take it as natural. Or to use a RL comparison, as long as they don't get more bed activity than RL celebrities, I take it as natural. After all, Iron Age superheroes are the celebrities of their worlds.

[zornwil]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The 'Ages' terminology only applies to superhero comics. Stuff like The Yellow Kid' date=' Gasoline Alley, Peanuts, EC Comics, Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers and Eightball lie outside those classifications.[/quote']

Yes and no - I do understand and agree there are differences in the development of non-supers comics (especially underground), but I think we can see LOTS of overlap in each era to the non-superheroic. Silver Age well associates with the Western comics (and many of the romance comics, although that varies as to whether the romance comic was a post-EC mature one or a "for teen girls' type) of that time, Bronze Age had many horror comics in tow in both style and message (particularly in DC, whereas of course prior to that horror comics were completely out of sync with and during the transition from Golden to Silver), as well as the Vertigo accompaniment to Iron Age that well reflected that ethic (and of course whereas Vertigo also, unlike Western (generally) or . War comics of the Silver and Bronze Ages well reflected those ethos (as well as the transition from one to the other as gung-ho jingoistic war comics became socially conscious shades of gray ones, well witnessed with the transition of Easy Company from a sort of post-pulp vaguely Doc Savage team to a "realistic" platoon of troubled men).

 

(PS - and I am referring solely to comic books, not comic strips or the like, although of course EC is a perfect example of something outside of Golden or Silver Age, although I would point out that it existed during the vaccuum of super comics, that era where people had basically stopped buying superhero comics but were still buying comic books - and I think that the collapse of EC with the institution of the Comics Code set back the general cause of comics around 15 years).

[Mister E]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

I read Preacher as a kind of release valve as the Sandman series ended (which left a void in my life). Preacher is good. I've loaned it out to a couple non-comic book readers, and they have all liked it... more so than say the Watchmen or the Dark Knight Returns. I never did read Swamp Thing, though I heard it was fantastic.