The downsides of the Iron Age

[nexus]

I’ve been thinking about the “Iron Age” lately and trying to solidify what I like and don’t like about the genre. At its best, the so called “Iron Age” of comics has brought us some of the more interesting in depth examinations of the genre, improved characterization and to some extent a more “realistic” or at least varied look at super humans, heroes and how they could impact our world. This isn’t saying that its been perfect. Like any genre there are failings that come with, ones that sometimes tend to overshadow the positive. Here’s a few I think have marred the “Iron Age” unfortunately.

 

Pessimism as the only realism with idealism and heroics of the early ages discarded for a cynical world view where the best you get are mercenaries with some slight conscious instead of Heroes.

 

Shock value over substance and pushing the boundaries just for the same of pushing them; while there is something to be said for exploring the edges of convention and using strong images and ideas to challenge reader or prove a point some Iron Age comics simply take this too far. Violence, adult content and sexuality are story telling tools and entertainment but some titles and copies just through them for pure shock and to prove how “edgy” they are.

 

The fact that some Iron Age writers seem to hold the idea of heroes in contempt or enjoy smearing them dirt, some even apparently find the idea of superheroes actively offensive and go out of their way to paint that as fascist goons, sexual deviants and sociopaths, especially if they can “parody” a classic or icon character in the process.

 

Far too many messages, particularly political, many Iron Age titles read like the author’s discourse on how the world “should” work. To be fair this crept into other Ages as well but it comes across as more blatant.

[McCoy]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The rise of the antihero. Are Rambo, the Punisher, and to a lesser extent Wolverine the legitimate heirs to Superman and Captain Marvel? Which is the "real" Batman, the "camp" creatiion of the 60's, or the Dark Knight?

 

BFG's. Since when and by what logic does the possession of an oversized gun qualify as a superpower?

 

Corruption of Authority. In Gold and Silver Age, the government was always right. Bronze age, there may be rouge agents within the government pursuing their own agenda. Iron Age, politicians and police are dirty, top to bottom.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Well, I'm a fan of a number of Iron Age titles, but I agree that Iron can be just as crappy as any other age of comics. Sturgeon's law always applies.

 

The most common flaw in Iron Age comics is to let the urge to parody the genre and industry overtake story concerns (Veitch, Millar, Miller); a good parody is also a good story in its own right. That's a hard line to walk for a writer.

 

The most common flaw in "Alloy Age" comics is to let the commentary on the nature of story telling and the genre eclipse the story being told (Moore, Gainman, Ellis, all of whom have done work both great and terrible), but that's another thread.

 

Ham fisted political commentary has always been a problem in Comics.

[Hermit]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

 

Ham fisted political commentary has always been a problem in Comics.

 

This is true, though sometimes what is hamfisted to modern eyes was revolutionary, brilliant, or even "The only way to get the message through" in the time it came out.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

This is true' date=' though sometimes what is hamfisted to modern eyes was revolutionary, brilliant, or even "The only way to get the message through" in the time it came out.[/quote']

 

I do miss the Golden Age Superman taking corrupt lobbyists on midnight rides through the skies of Washington. That's my Clark.

[Hermit]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

That old 'dangle em by their tie' vigilante

 

He'd never get away with it now...

Too many clip ons.

[GoldenAge]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

They don't call me Golden Age for nothing.

 

I'm constantly immersed in the realism of today's politics, financial ups and downs and war. The last thing I want to do is sit down with my favorite comic book and have to wade through even more "realism".

 

Truth & Justice. The fight for right. Normal men rising up to undo the wrongs committed against morality. These are the adventures I want to read.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love a great story. There's always room for twists, turns, ups and downs. And I’m well aware of the murderous histories of many Golden Age heroes (though I attribute that to the era, not the heroes themselves)… But in the end I want to read about superheroes, not rogue vigilantes with questionable morals and murderers. I WANT to suspend my disbelief and immerse myself in fantastic stories of unbelievable adventure.

 

To a lesser extent that’s why I dropped the X-Books. I was fed up with the constant barrage of soap opera dilemmas and antiquated anti-mutant discrimination. There was a time when the X-Men rose above the quagmire that threatened to pull them down and did the job of heroes for the everyman.

 

Thus my love for the new JSA.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Truth & Justice. The fight for right. Normal men rising up to undo the wrongs committed against morality. These are the adventures I want to read.

 

This catches another flaw of bad Iron Age writing. The pervasive sense of helplessness, the idea that no matter how personally powerful you may be, vast social forces will grind you into the dust. "Realistic" schmealistic, give me Heroes who actually can make a difference.

 

Note that this flaw of the Iron Age has been there since the beginning of Grimly "Realistic" Superheroes ... including the moment in 1930, when Philip Wylie's Hugo Danner learned that his power wouldn't allow one man to directly change the world. The seeds of Maximortal, Squadron Supreme and the Authority were planted right there in the dirt with the seeds of the Golden Age Superman. They came to full flower in the 1960s and 1970s with Farmer's Greatheart Silver, Doc Caliban and Lord Grandith. Comics fans and creators who think the Iron Age approach to Superheroes is a new development should do some reading.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The rise of the antihero. Are Rambo' date=' the Punisher, and to a lesser extent Wolverine the legitimate heirs to Superman and Captain Marvel? Which is the "real" Batman, the "camp" creatiion of the 60's, or the Dark Knight? [/quote']

 

Some of them do work, but at times it seems like comics are drowning in them.

 

Corruption of Authority. In Gold and Silver Age' date=' the government was always right. Bronze age, there may be rouge agents within the government pursuing their own agenda. Iron Age, politicians and police are dirty, top to bottom.[/quote']

 

Not just dirty, but so insanely vile and immoral that they make Papa Doc Duvalier's regime in Haiti look like a model of virtuous government by comparison. Sauron did a better job of running Mordor than some IA pols and cops.

[Vondy]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

My criticism of the Iron Age rests in its cynicism and amoral (sometimes downright immoral) perspective. Hero's, even if they are presented as being pragamatists, or as being seriously flawed, should remain heroes.

 

I don't object to heroes with guns, or to heroes with human motives who make hard decisions, or to a desire for more "realistic" character abilities and storylines, or careful attention to continuity, or more adult themes (insofar as they are done with a modicum of taste) - indeed I enjoy all of those things - but there should be hero seeing the right thing by his lights done, and a moral to the story.

 

Also, the genre doesn't need to be constantly deconstructed and ridiculed as an appeal to negative cultural mores. Being angsty doesn't necessarily make one deep or intellectual - it can also reveal a remarkable triteness of being. Some deconstruction and parody is healthy artistic expression, and can be inspired. Turning it into a editorial trend is self-destructive and... well... bitchy.

 

I like some of the things the Iron Age wrought - and my own campaign isn't without some Iron Age elements (its much more gritty pulp with bronze age elements, though) - but I don't think, overall, its been an "improvement."

[Chimpira]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

This thread has got me thinking about a game I set in the Wildstorm Universe in the early 90's. At one point I stopped the game in mid session and said, "I can't do this anymore. You guys are nothing but mercenaries."

 

Iron Age has good points and bad points. If it is done just to see what level of violence or depravity can we sink to next, then of course it is just flat out bad. Of course, that is my opinion.

 

My case is illuminated by looking at The Authority. I found the Warren Ellis run to be inspired at times. Quite a number of violent methods were employed but I never lost the feel that the characters were somewhat heroic in their ideology. This ended abruptly with the thirteenth issue and it simply became about a group of rockstars drunk on their own fame.

 

I think that Iron Age truly fails when their is no self discovery for the character. When there is no questioning of their own actions. When there are no reprecussions for their choices. When the line is blurred from what must be done and what is simply most expedient.

 

What is the use of a fallen hero if he can not climb back up again?

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

My case is illuminated by looking at The Authority. I found the Warren Ellis run to be inspired at times. Quite a number of violent methods were employed but I never lost the feel that the characters were somewhat heroic in their ideology. This ended abruptly with the thirteenth issue and it simply became about a group of rockstars drunk on their own fame.

 

Great example. I'd say that Ellis' Stormwatch and The Authority showed some of the best that Iron Age could be; Heroes genuinely trying to make the world a better place, a world that started out very dark. The characters were (for comic book characters) complex and interesting, the powers were given a sci fi buffing that made them work well in the setting, the whole thing worked. Then Ellis left, and the book immediately turned into a badly written, nasty parody.

[Remjin]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Ah? this is nice... I personally have no requirement for heroic or moral stories. In fact, the morality aspect is well overdone in comics and movies as is. I don't protest it, either.

 

As we speak in generalities, we talk of an era as a whole. Within all of that you will always find garbage... because of the whole. I relate it to organized religion, which shows its ugly, savage head all too often in a myriad of ways. Yet, within those faiths, you will find beautiful individuals above the rest in many different forms.

 

No matter the age or moral perspective, tell me a good story. That:s all I care about. The X-books were good for a time, relevant and immersive with its taste of synchronous life to some problems of the times. Then they were all the same, generically angsty and ridden with problems common to all of them.

 

Be a villain, a mercenary, an outright hero, or otherwise... I will never understand why any given age must be, why does one outlook have to be so pervasive?

 

I personally don't want to read 15 comic books with the same theme. I'd like to read 15 different stories, where the differences aee more than time, place, costume and powers.

 

I also really dislike the need for scantily clad women in everything. I don't protest it for existing or out of morality, just the lack of variety or ability to interest people without half of a breast always out, and legs twice as long as the entire rest of the body.

 

Whose going to take a two-bit hooker seriously?

 

I like the Dark Knight Batman. I like certain gritty characters. I aso like Havoc before he became another cry-baby, Colossus before he was bi-polar, Prime when he was just a lost kid enjoying Superhero time, Superman before he gave up his testicles, Wolverine before he fell in love and became part of the soaps.

 

I quit buying comics when everyone was crying that their mommy didn't love them enough as children and the universe was destroyed the 2nd time so they could start the numbers over with cheesy covers and a $5+ price tag.

 

I miss them.

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

This is true' date=' though sometimes what is hamfisted to modern eyes was revolutionary, brilliant, or even "The only way to get the message through" in the time it came out.[/quote']

 

This is true. Maybe its just a personal bais but I get more of a feeling of being "preached" too from some Iron Age titles, usually about the evil of conservative government, traditional religion or the US which given that I consider myself atheistic and liberal tells you something.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Whose going to take a two-bit hooker seriously?

 

The guys that get steel-bursting super-strong punches or energy blasts in the face ??

 

I quit buying comics when everyone was crying that their mommy didn't love them enough as children and the universe was destroyed the 2nd time so they could start the numbers over with cheesy covers and a $5+ price tag.

 

Also in order to wipe out continuity and rewrite to a clean slate so they can write new stories without checking a database half the size of Wikipedia for every issue.

[Wanderer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

This is true. Maybe its just a personal bais but I get more of a feeling of being "preached" too from some Iron Age titles' date=' usually about the evil of conservative government, traditional religion or the US which given that I consider myself atheistic and liberal tells you something.[/quote']

 

This is quite true, but one should also be mindful that such preaching is (not just, but) also a reaction to the equally obnoxious Comic Code preaching about the sanctity of the selfsame things, and to the fact that such memes appeared dangerously (from the POV of the writers) on an uncheckered upswing in the time such comics were written. I happen to remember one Millar interview where he stated that he was sincerely concerned that the Bush politics would eventually cause severe economic collapse while he wrote Ultimates 2. True, two evils dot no necessarily make good, and excessive abuse for political preaching of an artistic expression that people buy for entairtainment is bad thing.

 

Anyway, I am much more concerned by the fact that Iron Age authors (Millar being the most blatant of them) also often meant tossing any semblance of regularity in release to the winds. What it has taken to publish Ultimates 2, most of the last geological age ? If you check the current frontline Iron Ageish issues (Ultimates, Squadron Supreme, Authority, Ultimate Power), how many of them are on regular monthly schedule ? What about the mess that is Civil War ? How many confusing fill-in miniseries are being done to plug the holes ? That's a serious Iron Age downside to me.

[Remjin]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The guys that get steel-bursting super-strong punches or energy blasts in the face ??

 

Also in order to wipe out continuity and rewrite to a clean slate so they can write new stories without checking a database half the size of Wikipedia for every issue.

 

Ummm... just to be completely clear since text is such a horrible way of expressing the nuances of discussion, I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to be offensive, though my bitterness might have come out there a bit... and I'm going to assume you're speaking in a comically sarcastic tone rather than being actually hostile. =)

 

Yes, I understand the super-punches and all that... but it just strikes me as kind of silly to dress like a hooker to fight crime. If nothing else, just out of some sense of utility. Don't get me wrong, I fall prey to cheesecake as well, but does EVERYONE need to dress that way? *shrug* In any case, I'll digress before this becomes a women's issues argument. =)

 

I understand the continuity thing, but they showed little regard for it before, don't see why its a big deal after. And the down-side to that is that they wiped out a lot of continuity, and didn't they start over again after that and put things back the way they were? I'm talking about the era where Wolverine lost a hand and was married to Jean Grey comics and stuff like that. I understand a certain amount of cleaning up, and really, if the stories were good afterwards I might have stuck around... but they were getting worse, and the multiple foil/hologram/raised/alternate art covers drove me nuts along with the price tags... and I was just a poor college kid at the time. =)

[Remjin]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Anyway' date=' I am much more concerned by the fact that Iron Age authors (Millar being the most blatant of them) also often meant tossing any semblance of regularity in release to the winds. What it has taken to publish Ultimates 2, most of the last geological age ? If you check the current frontline Iron Ageish issues (Ultimates, Squadron Supreme, Authority, Ultimate Power), how many of them are on regular monthly schedule ? What about the mess that is Civil War ? How many confusing fill-in miniseries are being done to plug the holes ? That's a serious Iron Age downside to me.[/quote']

 

Does Image now own Marvel? Sorry, I'm way out of the loop...

[Hermit]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

This is true. Maybe its just a personal bais but I get more of a feeling of being "preached" too from some Iron Age titles' date=' usually about the evil of conservative government, traditional religion or the US which given that I consider myself atheistic and liberal tells you something.[/quote']

 

Yeah. I think Wanderer may have a point that in a way part of it is some sort of weird payback to the comics code authority. Whole generations weren't supposed to bad mouth authority figures (part of the code), and while that was bypassed often (Hulk takes on the Army, X-Men hunted by the government, etc) the pendelum may have swung too darn far the other way. Since I don't want to get into a whole conservative/liberal discussion outside of the NGD, maybe I'll start a thread there related to a seeming dearth of conservative characters who AREN'T nuts/just plain mean.

 

Last year, I read a thread on CBR where Gail Simone commented on the lack of positively portrayed religious characters in comics today and she herself is an atheist IIRC. Good writers are able to step out of their own limitations, or at least try,so sometimes I wish a few more of the comic writers I see today could give a more even shake despite their own impulses.

[Shaft]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

IMHO, skepticism and a minimal distrust of authority has become ingrained into the modern day psyche of the average comic reader. I think the average reader would have a hard time taking a hero seriously if that hero doesn't have at least harbor a little doubt when dealing with authority these days.

 

The trick is finding a way for idealism to co-exist with that skepticism. The stories that people like best are the ones in which a hero demonstrates the noblest ideals beneath the dark exterior. It probably explains why Batman remains so popular- he will never kill or even use a gun.

 

A symptom of The Iron Age is that the idealism is too much even for the heroes. They have to stoop to fighting dirty.

 

That doesn't mean that the Iron Age can't be well written though. In the end, a good story is a good story regardless of ideals.

[casualplayer]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The downside of the Iron Age is massive lethality that never lastingly affects the popular. Why is the Joker still drawing breath in the Iron Age? Why is Sabertooth? The Punisher? The mental gymnastics characters have to do to suddenly discover restraint when they have their archnemesis at the point of a blade, after they have massacred their way through millions of henchmen, makes me ill and outraged.

 

I don't mind Iron Age, but I hate long-earned closure being interrupted.

[OddHat]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

The downside of the Iron Age is massive lethality that never lastingly affects the popular. Why is the Joker still drawing breath in the Iron Age? Why is Sabertooth? The Punisher? The mental gymnastics characters have to do to suddenly discover restraint when they have their archnemesis at the point of a blade, after they have massacred their way through millions of henchmen, makes me ill and outraged.

 

I don't mind Iron Age, but I hate long-earned closure being interrupted.

 

Yup. Kill as many no name goons as you like, they don't matter, but spare the guy who blew up a busload of nuns and shot your sidekick in the spine. The worst of both worlds.

[JmOz]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

It is an aside but my problem with the Joker being alive is not that Batman has not killed him.

 

See I like the idea of the Hero being better than the normal person moraly. My problem is that you can't tell me that this conversation would not have happened yet

 

"I shot him 46 times while he was trying to escape"

 

"Ok, that sounds---"

 

"Boss according to the bloodsplaters the Joker would of been standing perfectly still"

 

"as I was saying before I was interupted, you shot him 46 times? sounds like you were afraid of your life, running you say, ok thank you I think that will be everything, want to go get a beer"

 

"sure"

 

"cool, first round is on me, the next 45 will be on the rest of the squad"

[Doug McCrae]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Corruption of Authority. In Gold and Silver Age' date=' the government was always right. Bronze age, there may be rouge agents within the government pursuing their own agenda. Iron Age, politicians and police are dirty, top to bottom.[/quote']That's pretty much true but I can think of a couple of exceptions. In very early Superman, the rich and powerful are often presented as corrupt and immoral. I think there's a corrupt congressman or senator in Action Comics #1. Also what about General Thunderbolt Ross in the Incredible Hulk?

[nexus]

Re: The downsides of the Iron Age

 

Kill the goons, spare the boss (for a while anyway) comes up in Action movie settings allot too I've considered a variant CAK for some characters.

 

Code vs Murder: The character can and will kill in combat and doesn't pull punches, but they will not kill in cold blood, a "helpless" enemy or stage an assasination even when it would be to his benefit to do so (Com, Strong)