Normal-proofing your Bricks?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

As a lifelong comics geek, and I always go back to the source material. Martial Artists in comics do face off against Bricks, but the understanding was always that they did not expect to be able to KO them. Just as they knew that "If he tags me once more time, I'm out of it." or "I was lucky to roll with that punch. The next one will take my head off."

 

Daredevil fought the Hulk, but he got his horned hat handed to him. Everyone knew that he would not be able to damage the Hulk, including DD. In fact I would go so far as to say ESPECIALLY DD!!

 

I would also say that DD was not in the same campaign as the Hulk. They aren't based on the same points. They aren't intended to be roughly equal PC's. The Hulk is specifically intended to be vastly more powerful than Daredevil.

 

In the old Defenders book (the only book where Hulk was a team member), Nighthawk was capable of combat with Hulk-level threats. Captain America has been shown as capable of holding off Thor or Iron Man. These are the "normal human martial artists" who are on the same team as the "normal-proof" bricks.

 

I have no problem with a Brick's defenses being easily high enough that true "Normals" - that's characters with 100 points total or less - are no threat to them. However, when someone suggests "Well, my PC is a Brick, so he should be immune to attacks from the team martial artist", that's a different matter altogether. "Highly trained normal" is just a background. That highly trained normal martial artist is a 350 point PC, just like the Brick. For the Brick's player to suggest "My archetype should be immune to damage from his archetype" is, to me, ludicrous. My response would either be towards "Get over it - the game demands some level of PC comparability" or "If I were to adopt the genre convention that your Brick is unhurtable by trained humans, I would also feel obliged to adopt the genre convention that your Brick is incapable of landing a blow on trained human heroes and readily manipulated by mentalists."

 

If you want to be immune to the MA's attack, buy enough defenses to be immune to his attack, and to other attacks at the same level. And don't whine when an MA with higher DC's shows up - he's good enough to penetrate your defenses.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I would also say that DD was not in the same campaign as the Hulk. They aren't based on the same points. They aren't intended to be roughly equal PC's. The Hulk is specifically intended to be vastly more powerful than Daredevil.

 

In the old Defenders book (the only book where Hulk was a team member), Nighthawk was capable of combat with Hulk-level threats. Captain America has been shown as capable of holding off Thor or Iron Man. These are the "normal human martial artists" who are on the same team as the "normal-proof" bricks.

 

I have no problem with a Brick's defenses being easily high enough that true "Normals" - that's characters with 100 points total or less - are no threat to them. However, when someone suggests "Well, my PC is a Brick, so he should be immune to attacks from the team martial artist", that's a different matter altogether. "Highly trained normal" is just a background. That highly trained normal martial artist is a 350 point PC, just like the Brick. For the Brick's player to suggest "My archetype should be immune to damage from his archetype" is, to me, ludicrous. My response would either be towards "Get over it - the game demands some level of PC comparability" or "If I were to adopt the genre convention that your Brick is unhurtable by trained humans, I would also feel obliged to adopt the genre convention that your Brick is incapable of landing a blow on trained human heroes and readily manipulated by mentalists."

 

If you want to be immune to the MA's attack, buy enough defenses to be immune to his attack, and to other attacks at the same level. And don't whine when an MA with higher DC's shows up - he's good enough to penetrate your defenses.

 

Gamewise, I actually agree with most of that. Let's take an example from my geeky past that might be right on the money. If I'm playing old school Luke Cage, and my buddy is playing Iron Fist. They are within a few points of each other in the "Heroes for Hire" campaign.

 

Luke has higher defenses and STR; Danny has higher CV values and his no range EB with activation. When they fight each other, Luke has a hard time hitting Danny, but Danny can't really KO Luke unless he hits him with an all out attack. That's about what I would expect from a roughly equivalent MA/Brick comparison. I would go so far as to say that their damage classes are about equal as well.

 

I still don't see the problem with vastly powerful characters inhabiting the same world as street-level guys. Occasionally PCs will fight out of their weight class, but it's up to the GM to make sure it is entertaining and leads to some greater reward. I would not let one PC be cosmic level while the others are street level, but a little variation in power level might be good if the players are up to it.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I would also say that DD was not in the same campaign as the Hulk. They aren't based on the same points. They aren't intended to be roughly equal PC's. The Hulk is specifically intended to be vastly more powerful than Daredevil.

 

Actually, they are in the same campaign. It's just that DD is a PC and the Hulk is an NPC.

 

Despite having his own title, the Hulk spends a whole lot of his time being a "wandering monster".

 

In fact I designed a "cut down early Marvel Universe" setting a few months ago. It was written from the viewpoint of the FF and Spider-Man. The Hulk was, indeed, an NPC encounter, much like Namor. As it happened, my timeline cut off before Daredevil's first appearance. I think I would have treated him as an NPC too.

 

Actually that was a neat little setting. Unfortunately I've committed myself to my Golden Age game, so I won't bother to develop it any further.

 

As for my Golden Age game - I expect some of the PCs to be more or less "normal-proof", as in "nothing less than a bursting shell can penetrate his skin". The "normal" PCs will have to use the same methods as anyone else if they need to take them out. And they will need to take them out, sooner or later...

 

But the "normal" PCs won't be wimps either. 350 points buys a pretty tough "boxer in a mask".

 

EDIT: The Power Man vs Iron Fist matchup is a pretty fair one. Of course Iron Fist has an attack that is distinctly not "normal". Otherwise it's a pretty standard Brick versus Martial Artist match. I would say that Iron Fist should win about 55% of the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Actually, they are in the same campaign. It's just that DD is a PC and the Hulk is an NPC.

 

Despite having his own title, the Hulk spends a whole lot of his time being a "wandering monster".

 

As an NPC, the disparate power levels aren't an issue. The difference between fiction and games is that there's no clear delineation between PC or NPC in the former. Or, perhaps more accurately, everyone in fiction is an NPC, since they're all run by the writer, who is the GM. Thus, there's no need for objective conflict resolution systems (like OCV, DCV and a to hit roll, or damage rolls and defenses), since one person calls all the shots.