Normal-proofing your Bricks?

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

So' date=' at the (+1) level, the defense power creates an obvious manifestation. A flash of light, noise, obvious resistance, etc.[/quote']

 

No, no obvious sensory effects (SFX is invisible), but there is a noticeable lack of efficacy of the attacker's blows or shots, which both the attacker and observers may notice, but it isn't obvious that a power of the defender is blocking them (source is invisible).

 

At the (+2) level, it has no indicators at all beyond the fact that the target isn't taking damage. "I hit him as hard as I could, and he didn't budge!" "Bullets just bounce right off of him!!!!"

 

Yes, but only the attacker is in the position to notice that the target isn't taking damage. Observers won't notice (if not clued by the fact that the target keeps standing the fight).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Does every team have a brick? Are all bricks created equally? And even if every brick in the universe was MA-proof' date=' that's not the only type of character you should be running into, so is it really an issue? [/quote']

 

How many teams do NOT have a Brick? They are one of the most common archetypes, after all.

 

You're making a lot of absolute statements here. The ranges of nothing are fixed. We're not talking about DnD' date=' and Archetypes aren't fixed classes. You continue talk as if I've offered no suggestions of balance whatsoever, which is patently false. Remember Thor vs. Supes in the JLA/Avengers crossover? "Where I come from, the dial goes up to eleven!" I'm just talking about options for adding numbers to the dial.[/quote']

 

Part of the problem comes from the disconnect between comics and games. "The dial goes to 11" to me means "I have more points, and more power, than you". In a game, most players expect to have characters of equivalent power - differing in some ways, sure, but with advantages and disadvantages that more or less offset.

 

I agree that the "sameness" in many games - everyone has a 12 DC attack, 25 defenses, CV between 7 and 9, 5-6 SPD, etc., is not necessarily desirable, but it's important to ensure that, if someone gets a significant advantage in one area (40 defenses, say), he's also weakened in another (maybe 5 CV and 4 SPD; maybe reduced DC's, etc.).

 

Why not make some suggestions' date=' then? I have, and since you've ignored them, I'd like to hear yours. Not that I don't respect your role as Devil's Advocate, but this is leaning toward wheel spinning.[/quote']

 

My question to the player who says "I want my Brick to have 40 defenses/be immune to attacks by the Martial Artists will, quite simply, be "what's your offsetting drawback?" Maybe it's a CV of 6 and a SPD of 4 - he's very tough, but also very slow. Maybe he has a 9 DC attack in a game where 12 DC is the norm - he's hard to hurt but doesn't inflict much damage. Maybe he lacks versatility (his STR is his only attack and he only has CV levels with Punch - no Brick Tricks, seldom-used Stun Drain, levels with all HTH attacks or what have you). It's tough to set a specific group of items without knowing the norm for both Bricks and other characters in the game in question. If he wants to be well above the norm in one area, he should be well under the norm in another, or somewhat below the norm in several.

 

I can't believe you can't see how it's useful. Let's put it this way: Who can damage the brick when he's on the ground? Your highest damage team member' date=' right? Typically, that's someone with low to moderate CV to compensate, perhaps your own brick? Given the tight range of CVs suggested by the sample characters and the table in the book (7-11 and 7-13 respectively, IIRC),[/quote']

 

That book also suggests a tight range of defense levels. Won't the CV's be allowed to spread out if we allow the defenses to spread out? Logically, I'll recover some of the extra points spent on defenses from my DCV - if I'm hard to hurt, why bother paying points to be hard to hit.

 

BTW, the assumption that the Brick will also be the hardest-hitting member of the group implies that Bricks now have the highest defenses and the highest CV's. What benefits will be extended to non-bricks, or is it your contention that Bricks should be the superior combatants (at least from a damage/defense perspective) and other types of characters should focus on Brick Support to help them get a hit in despite their lower CV's and SPD's? In my experience, that's not the role that, say, the Human Torch and the Invisible Woman play in the Fantastic Four.

 

halving anyone's DCV is a HUGE advantage in a fight. Are you telling me that you don't understand the concept? I'm not buying. I've seen plenty of your posts' date=' and I have an idea of your grasp of game mechanics, and I think it's a pretty solid one. So, what gives?[/quote']

 

If my OCV is 7 and your DCV is 8, halving your DCV is a huge advantage. If my OCV is 9 and your DCV is 5, who cares if it does down to 3? I'll hit on a 16 or 17, which I'll roll about 1 time in 25 anyway.

 

NOTE: I'm not arguing against spreading out the ranges. That can make for an interesting game. I am questioning why it's only advantages for the Brick that you are discussing - what genre-appropriate drawback(s) do you propose your Brick should have in exchange for getting normal-proofed? What genre-apppropriate bonuses do you want Martial Artists, or Energy Projectors, or whatever, to receive to compensate them for their redfuced ability to harm the Brick?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

No, no obvious sensory effects (SFX is invisible), but there is a noticeable lack of efficacy of the attacker's blows or shots, which both the attacker and observers may notice, but it isn't obvious that a power of the defender is blocking them (source is invisible).

 

 

 

Yes, but only the attacker is in the position to notice that the target isn't taking damage. Observers won't notice (if not clued by the fact that the target keeps standing the fight).

 

 

Hmmm... so the first one the bullets might bounce off of him... etc....

 

The second one the bullets hit him, pierece his clothes, impact, malform (forgot the technical word for when a bullet becomes misshapen upon impact), and then just drop. (Pretty subtle in my opinion, only the specifc attacker or someone watching closely would notice).

 

Is that more appropiate?

[Psylint]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Pattern Ghost:

 

If a brick is proof against martial arts, they are proof against almost all physical attacks. Are your martial arts proof bricks going to have 0 energy defense, so that any Joe Normal with a flamethrower turns your brick into a lump of charcoal? And if not, then what sorts of things are going to affect this brick?

 

Mental attacks are rather rare, so even if you take 2x Stun from Ego Blast, in a DC capped game, your average STR/CON based brick will still recover most of it each turn.

 

Maybe 2x effect from Mind Control? Naw... nobody wants to be someone else's puppet.

 

Balancing strategies:

Allow only 40 active points for all defenses. So you can have a 40 pd, a 30 rpd, 20 pd/20ed, 12rpd/12red. etc.

 

Require every character to have a commonly available means of taking him/her/it out: Martial artists are at the mercy of anything that negates or limits their DCV, grabs, entangles, area of effect, spreading energy blast etc. Energy Projectors with forcefields that provide high defenses are subject to endurance drain, middling DCV, etc. What is the Achilles Heel of the 40 DEF brick?

 

Desolid gives near absolute immunity at the cost of being able to affect the real world, 40 DEF gives practical immunity at the cost of ???

 

On the flip side, what kinds of challenges can you present to a 40 DEF brick? almost nothing combat related, so all of the challenges become skill/role play based, and your brick goes off in a huff because they spent most of their points on stuff they never get to use in any real sense.

 

A high DCV character can always be hit (see above), a forcefield character can always be worn down (see above), but a brick with persistent defenses?

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Hmmm... so the first one the bullets might bounce off of him... etc....

 

The second one the bullets hit him, pierece his clothes, impact, malform (forgot the technical word for when a bullet becomes misshapen upon impact), and then just drop. (Pretty subtle in my opinion, only the specifc attacker or someone watching closely would notice).

 

Is that more appropiate?

 

This looks like an adequate application of the rule, yes. Whereas for the SFX Only, the defence will get noticeable (the force field will "flare up" for a moment, the steel-hard skin will "ping"), but only while the attack is repelled. The rest of the time, it is invisible. If the brick or energy projector walks away from the fight, and turns a corner, no one that meets him will deem him invulnerable. That's way in most cases, I deem SFX Only to be enough for Defense powers, if the fight goes on long enough, the defense will get obvious from attacks that keep fail. The value of IPE is in making the defense hidden before the fight starts, or does not occur at all. Higher values may be useful to make the attacker overestimate his chances for a couple Phases more, but eventually the ruse will end.

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Mental attacks are rather rare, so even if you take 2x Stun from Ego Blast, in a DC capped game, your average STR/CON based brick will still recover most of it each turn.

 

If you build your Vulnerability to all Mental attacks (meaning both Ego Attacks from all SFX, and Stun attacks with a Mental/Psionic SFX), they aren't all that rare. I use mentalists with the same frequency that they show up in Marvel, and they aren't so rare there. Among mutants, they are as frequent as energy projectors.

 

Maybe 2x effect from Mind Control? Naw... nobody wants to be someone else's puppet.

 

Yea, nobody wants to be the "insert a coin" puppet, but a halfway alternative I've developed is to build almost all of the EGO and all Mental Defense, if any, with a Lim "Not Vs. Attacks that make use of Psych Lim". Against your random mental control or illusion attack, you are as tough as any other strong-willed hero, but if the mentalist does some homework, and realizes which buttons work with the hero, he will fold like a house of cards.

 

Another mentalist-based tactic to give weak spots to bricks and energy projectors, is to make all or most of their powers psionic, and critically based or willpower (cfr. John Byrne's Superman, Superboy, Gladiator). E.g. build the character as an OIHID or Multiform (or put an appropriate Lim on powers, but it looks more cumbersome on char sheet), and make Drains, Suppresses and Mind Control or Mental Illusion Attacks that severely drop EGO, INT, or PRE, or inflict severe amounts of negative emotions like fear, doubt, or despair, as the shutdown condition of the heroic form.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

On the flip side' date=' what kinds of challenges can you present to a 40 DEF brick? almost nothing combat related, so all of the challenges become skill/role play based, and your brick goes off in a huff because they spent most of their points on stuff they never get to use in any real sense.[/quote']

 

Having actually played a 40 DEF brick, I can say that you are worrying about a non-issue.

 

First of all, points spent in one place are points not available elsewhere. That means that the high DEF brick is likely to be vulnerable to other types of attack, or else simply can be immobilised. Try gassing them, flashing them, draining them, using telekinesis against them, or any of a dozen other different techniques for taking them out. Failing that, just hit them with a bigger attack. (Blowing up an oil storage tank, or something of the sort). Sure, other characters caught in the area would get fried by such an attack, but that's their problem. It's their fault for getting caught in the area.

 

High DEF bricks aren't the be all and end all of combat. They are tough, and therefore fun to play, but they can be taken down.

 

Second, such a character can be perfectly well suited to skill/role-play oriented games. In fact, one of the benefits of building an "invulnerable" character in the first place is that it tends to push the game in that direction. In any case, most characters' power sets are fairly irrelevant in such contexts. The main exceptions are mentalists and characters with heavy enhanced senses, who tend to break such scenarios at least as badly as extra-heavy combat monsters do to combat scenarios.

 

Obviously, if a GM thinks a 40 DEF brick would present a problem, he/she doesn't have to accept it. That's the real solution.

 

On the original point of "normal-proofing": frankly I think you should just cough up the points if you want to be "normal-proof". It's not that expensive.

 

For an example of a low-cost "normal-proof" brick, see: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1251496&postcount=26

 

If his lack of skills bothers you, just build him up to 350 points...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Failing that' date=' just hit them with a bigger attack. (Blowing up an oil storage tank, or something of the sort).[/quote']

 

Making sure every character has an attack capable of taking out the Hulk tends to be problematic for either Hawkeye's ability to survive, or for believability that they only use that attack on the Hulk and put it away when they see Hawkeye.

 

Your other examples are good ones, and ensuring that Brick has some form of achilles heel is important. I recall a very old Defenders issue where they made a big deal of the Hulk being rendered helpless by a blinding flash that would have been ineffectual on the far less powerful Daredevil.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Making sure every character has an attack capable of taking out the Hulk tends to be problematic for either Hawkeye's ability to survive' date=' or for believability that they only use that attack on the Hulk and put it away when they see Hawkeye.[/quote']

 

If you note, I wrote "(Blowing up an oil storage tank, or something of the sort)."

 

This is completely unrelated to "Making sure every character has an attack capable of taking out the Hulk".

 

At times I think we tend to think in wargaming terms too much. The fact is that a deathtrap or a Death Ray will take anyone out. That's their function.

 

In any case, I don't have a problem with characters that do actually have attacks that can take out the Hulk and splatter Hawkeye. There shouldn't be too many of them, but they can exist. Hawkeye is a big boy. He can look after himself.

 

Besides, I work on the principle that Hawkeye's defences are no lower than those of Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, or the Wasp, and not much inferior to those of Goliath. The gap is not between the Hulk and Hawkeye, but rather between the Hulk (and Iron Man, and maybe Thor) and everyone else.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

If you note' date=' I wrote [i']"(Blowing up an oil storage tank, or something of the sort)."[/i]

 

This is completely unrelated to "Making sure every character has an attack capable of taking out the Hulk".

 

I don't think most of us are looking for a game where one character is only subject to injury 1/10 as often as the rest, but whatever works in your games.

 

In any case' date=' I don't have a problem with characters that do actually have attacks that can take out the Hulk and splatter Hawkeye. There shouldn't be too many of them, but they can exist. Hawkeye is a big boy. He can look after himself.[/quote']

 

Actually, I get more irked with attacks that take out the Hulk and just barely KO Hawkeye as well. That, or "oh, I won't use my effective attack against you", strains my personal suspension of disbelief.

 

But if my character regularly gets splattered because the game needs huge attacks to threaten his teammate with any possibility of taking some Stun, I'm probably going to want to beef up my defenses as well. Or, if my character generally gets KO'd and I watch the Brick, who's pretty much unhurtable, finish the conbat, I'll quickly get bored of being the "Amazing Friend" part of the team. That's where the tradeoff comes in. In this case, maybe the tradeoff is that the attack big enough to KO the Brick is fired by a character who needs to spread it for several dice to have a chance of hitting the martial artist.

 

As to where the gap lies, how many players want to be on the "easy target" side of the gap? There has to be some tradeoff that makes Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch equally viable chaacters to Hulk, Iron Man and Thor, if they're going to play in the same game.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

As to where the gap lies, how many players want to be on the "easy target" side of the gap? There has to be some tradeoff that makes Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch equally viable chaacters to Hulk, Iron Man and Thor, if they're going to play in the same game.

 

Well, ignoring Thor ( who is head and shoulders above damn near every other Avengers anyway ), there actually are counterbalancing reasons. Quicksilver has considerably greater speed and agility than any other Avenger I can name, plus speedster tricks. Scarlet Witch has what amounts to a great bigass cosmic power pool, probably bigger than anyone else who is a regular Avengers ( excluding Thor's seldom used tricks, anyway ). And Hawkeye has a huge amount of Luck, given his nigh-magical ability to make the difference in grand cosmic Avengers battles.

[massey]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Hawkeye has average level hero defenses. He's got a 10 PD, a 5/5 armored costume, and then 3 levels of combat luck. He's got a decent DCV - just lower than martial artist level. So, let's say an 8 or a 9. He also generally sits at the outskirts of a battle, at least 8-12 inches away, if he can help it. He's got range levels to make up for it. So let's say he's got enough movement to stay at that range. He gets, we'll say, an extra 4 DCV from range against most foes. So now he's at a 12 DCV, effectively. He's got some pretty basic martial arts, including a martial dodge, so he could theoretically put himself at a 17 DCV. He won't get to attack, but that's exactly what he's going to use when somebody points the Hulk-killer gun at him. Hawkeye doesn't suck.

 

Not everyone should have a Hulk-killer blast that they use all the time. If you've got something like that, it should generally cost extra endurance, or have a lower OCV than your normal attacks. You are, after all, giving it your all and shooting at a target who doesn't try to avoid attacks. So if Nova Lad needs something to hurt the brick, give him the 16D6 EB (it's a mere +4D6 above his normal). Just make sure that it's at x5 Endurance and that it has "beam limitation" on it so it can't be spread. People won't shoot it at Hawkeye too much because they can't afford to lose all the END if they miss.

 

If you want bricks to NOT dominate the game, give them problems to face beyond mere dice damage. If you want the martial artist to shine, then have him take part in a running, jumping, swinging and flipping battle across the rooftops of a city. He'll run down fire escapes, leap through windows (smiling at the woman taking a bath as he passes through), do backflips off of telephone poles, and the like. The brick will always, ALWAYS be the best at standing in one spot and trading punches. That's his thing, after all. Energy projectors get to do funky tricks with their power set, as well as have flying shooting battles in the sky. Martial artists should get to fight in weird cramped environments, fighting a dozen men at once and doing mind-blowing acrobatic maneuvers, like leaping off the roof of a building and kicking through the rear window of the getaway car (landing safely in the back seat in the process). A martial artist makes a poor brick. Don't try to make him fit that mold. People don't remember that time when Batman punched a super tough guy really hard. They remember when he moved so fast that he took the Punisher's guns away from him and then beat him like a woman who left spots on the dishes.

[Squall]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Thanks' date=' but I didn't take any real offense to Squall's attacks. They were pretty mild. [/quote']

My...attacks?

 

Yeah, uhh, I guess I was way out of line when I suggested posts like "Learn to read!" might not keep a conversation constructive, and it was really rude of me to ask what "Go sigh up a rope" means. I'm sorry, mods. My, uhh, my fault.

 

On topic: I've got to stick with the "if you want to be immune to stuff, buy up your defenses, it's what Bricks do anyways," frame of mind. Buying stuff that works against "normals only" is a big sticky mess that starts to punish people for no real good reason.

 

Take Daredevil and Iron Fist, let's say. Both are martial artists with a schtick up their sleeve -- Daredevil's got his senses and a billy club, Iron Fist has his supernatural chi manipulation stuff. When it comes to whalloping people, you could argue both have the same HA power (only Daredevil's got it with an OAF, and maybe Danny Rand's requires a Chi Focus skill roll) -- why should your "Normal Proof" Brick get to automatically shrug off the billy club attack from a world-class martial artist, but not the punch from a guy with a glowing fist? Isn't the fact it's already an obvious accessible focus (what he's getting powers for) disadvantage enough? Blunt trauma is blunt trauma. Defining things as "normal" and "not normal," just so a Brick can feel tougher, does nothing but stack extra penalties onto people, above and beyond the disad's they've already got written down next to their powers.

 

It's also difficult (as this thread has shown) to know where to draw the "Normal" line. A regular steel crowbar would count as normal, but what about an Atlantean war-club made of some strange alloy? What about Cap's shield (made of imaginary metals with special properties)? At what point does a martial artist break the "Normal" threshold? Daredevil's a metahuman, do his attacks count as supernatural even though his metahuman power has nothing to do (directly) with attacking? What about a punch from Cyclops? Danny Rand isn't a metahuman, but his chi manipulation is what we (in real life) would call supernatural, right? What about Lady Shiva, Batgirl/Cassandra Cain, or Bronze Tiger, DC's (arguably) best martial artists (are they supernatural, given they routinely do things impossible to normal humans, like dodge bullets?), none of which have a metagene... Why does any attack from a metagene-negative person like them bounce off your Brick, but a punch from an untrained guy with even moderate super strength (USAgent? uh oh, not normal!) punch through some of your defenses?

 

It all just seems unnecessarily complicated and arbitrary, to me. Just buy some extra PD/ED, and call it good.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Not everyone should have a Hulk-killer blast that they use all the time. If you've got something like that' date=' it should generally cost extra endurance, or have a lower OCV than your normal attacks. You are, after all, giving it your all and shooting at a target who doesn't try to avoid attacks. So if Nova Lad needs something to hurt the brick, give him the 16D6 EB (it's a mere +4D6 above his normal). Just make sure that it's at x5 Endurance and that it has "beam limitation" on it so it can't be spread. People won't shoot it at Hawkeye too much because they can't afford to lose all the END if they miss.[/quote']

 

The issue I have with this approach is that we are now designing opposition to circumvent the abilities we allowed the Brick to have in the first place. Basically, we're saying the Brick can have his +15 defenses over the limit for other characters. But then we're designing characters with +4 DC to face him down, essentially neutralizing the points he spent on extra defenses.

 

I think it's important to understand what the player envisions from his character. That 40 DEF Brick is probably envisioned as being immune to most attacks, and thus looking impressive when he's attacked. I doubt the player expects to have higher defenses to subtract from higher attacks, so his character takes the same amount of damage from each hit as everyone else, but simply subtracts a larger defense number from a larger attack number. I see my choices as a GM as either allowing those higher defenses, and making sure the character gets the benefits from them, or telling the player NO because that spread of defenses will not be workable in game.

 

If you want bricks to NOT dominate the game' date=' give them problems to face beyond mere dice damage. If you want the martial artist to shine, then have him take part in a running, jumping, swinging and flipping battle across the rooftops of a city. He'll run down fire escapes, leap through windows (smiling at the woman taking a bath as he passes through), do backflips off of telephone poles, and the like. The brick will always, ALWAYS be the best at standing in one spot and trading punches.[/quote']

 

 

So for much of the game, our Martial Artist gets to watch the Brick fight the opponent because the MA can't do any damage. For other parts, the Brick player gets to spend each phase saying "I keep running down the street, hoping to someday catch up to the battle". I think these very specialized scenarios work as a change of pace but, in a "team game", all the characters need to be involved most of the time. Unlike the comics or the movies, those players whose characters aren't in the action don't patiently remain "on hold" waiting until they are once again part of the action.

 

I find that comparing the various characters for the team is a nice start to assessing balance. If I face them off, one on one, and one of them is unbeatable, he's likely unbalanced. I generally find, however, that this is not the case, and that some "matches" might go either way, while those that are clear-cut have their winner face a clear loss against another teammate, and the loser would get a clear win.

 

BTW, has anyone ever found the Evil Twins scenario a pretty easy win? We had one a couple of years ago where we realized early on that we would be facing "the evil ourselves" at some point. We made a point of disguising our own identities, and had a battle plan for facing down "ourselves". Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents made for a pretty easy battle.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

My...attacks?

 

Yeah, uhh, I guess I was way out of line when I suggested posts like "Learn to read!" might not keep a conversation constructive, and it was really rude of me to ask what "Go sigh up a rope" means. I'm sorry, mods. My, uhh, my fault.

 

There, there. I forgive you already, so don't worry about it. =)

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Pattern Ghost:

 

If a brick is proof against martial arts, they are proof against almost all physical attacks. Are your martial arts proof bricks going to have 0 energy defense, so that any Joe Normal with a flamethrower turns your brick into a lump of charcoal? And if not, then what sorts of things are going to affect this brick?

 

You act like I said "Let's make it so someone can be the most powerful munchiny, everything proof character in the game!" Well, I didn't.

 

Is there anything wrong with a character being essentially punch proof versus character types with the background of having a normal human physiology?

 

Is this any different in the long run than a character who has electric based powers buying effective immunity from electric attacks? Other than the defended against SFX being more common in the first case, it's not.

 

If you extend the immunity to PD, ED and even MD (and that's the case for Wolverine, and enhanced resistance to mental attacks is also a Hulk trick), then you definately have a problem.

 

Personally, I like the model we came up with waaaay back in the building the animated Justice League thread: Moderate CVs/SPDs, and in general higher physical defenses than energy defenses on the brick types. Supes can take a hit from almost any impact and shrug it off, but gets stunned from almost any large energy attack. That works pretty well.

[massey]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

The issue I have with this approach is that we are now designing opposition to circumvent the abilities we allowed the Brick to have in the first place. Basically, we're saying the Brick can have his +15 defenses over the limit for other characters. But then we're designing characters with +4 DC to face him down, essentially neutralizing the points he spent on extra defenses.

 

I think it's important to understand what the player envisions from his character. That 40 DEF Brick is probably envisioned as being immune to most attacks, and thus looking impressive when he's attacked. I doubt the player expects to have higher defenses to subtract from higher attacks, so his character takes the same amount of damage from each hit as everyone else, but simply subtracts a larger defense number from a larger attack number. I see my choices as a GM as either allowing those higher defenses, and making sure the character gets the benefits from them, or telling the player NO because that spread of defenses will not be workable in game.

 

Uh, the ENTIRE THREAD is about keeping your brick from getting beaten by non-powered characters. The player envisions his brick not getting beat up by Daredevil. I don't see how giving the Human Torch extra burninating is going to counter that.

 

 

So for much of the game, our Martial Artist gets to watch the Brick fight the opponent because the MA can't do any damage. For other parts, the Brick player gets to spend each phase saying "I keep running down the street, hoping to someday catch up to the battle". I think these very specialized scenarios work as a change of pace but, in a "team game", all the characters need to be involved most of the time. Unlike the comics or the movies, those players whose characters aren't in the action don't patiently remain "on hold" waiting until they are once again part of the action.

 

It's called "more than one villain" and "having characters do different things at the same time".

 

"Bob, you're slugging it out with Titanicus Rex on the roof of the building. Jimmy, you are chasing Bloodninja Murderstab down the staircase."

 

See? Easy. And the only thing it requires from a GM is that he talk more. I've found with most GMs that the more they get to talk, the happier they are.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Uh, the ENTIRE THREAD is about keeping your brick from getting beaten by non-powered characters. The player envisions his brick not getting beat up by Daredevil. I don't see how giving the Human Torch extra burninating is going to counter that.

 

Remind the player that at one point, the Hulk (all big, green, ticked-off, and 5 INT) was rampaging through Tokyo. And the Avengers were there, and Thor got his rear kicked, and Iron Man got his rear kicked, &c. with Captain America and the Vision and whomever else was on the team at the time. Oh, and Sunfire too. I mean, they were doing tactics on him and he was smashing through them like they were tissue paper. I mean, he isn't even breathing hard, and nobody's landed a serious hit on him.

 

Of course, he's trashing the entire place, and everyone's worried about civilian casualties, and sure enough there goes Hulk, bounding down the street right at some little old Japanese lady, like Yoda with the cane. And she looks up the street at him, and he rockets down at her like an angry force of nature and then voomph, he's flying through the air directly into a wall, martial throw and KO.

 

Keeping your brick from getting beaten up by non-powered characters means getting extra regular PD. Or damage reduction for PD. But 'only vs. stuff done by non-Powered individuals' basically sucks eggs, isn't a limitation, and offends at least my reason. The brick doesn't want to get beaten up by Daredevil? Don't get hit. Be able to take the hit. All the usual 'I don't wanna get beaten up by anybody' stuff. Especially in a superheroic campaign, where a notable segment of the concept is 'guy who goes kii-yaah!!', getting trashed by someone 'Normal' who can out-think, out-maneuver, and out-fight you is par for the course. He should get beaten up by Daredevil. He deserves it. He doesn't want it? Get a zillion PD. Build Juggernaut. I mean, it isn't like Juggernaut routinely fights Daredevil, right?

 

Anything else is a violation against the concept -- not of the game mechanics, of the genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

It's called "more than one villain" and "having characters do different things at the same time".

 

"Bob, you're slugging it out with Titanicus Rex on the roof of the building. Jimmy, you are chasing Bloodninja Murderstab down the staircase."

 

Bob: "Hold on there, Jimmy - my Brick will raise his mighty fists and pummel the top of the staircase. That should collapse the stairs, making Ol' BM fall. Assuming he's still conscious, you should be able to take him out while he's prone."

 

Jimmy: "Great, Bob - thanks for the help. Guess I'll tie up the Bloodninja, then sit around and watch Bob fight TR, since a normal human can't help in combat against a mighty Brick."

 

I prefer to have the characters each face multiple different kinds of challenges, some possibly tailored to their individual abilities and others perhaps lacking such obvious solutions.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Bob: "Hold on there' date=' Jimmy - my Brick will raise his mighty fists and pummel the top of the staircase. That should collapse the stairs, making Ol' BM fall. Assuming he's still conscious, you should be able to take him out while he's prone."[/quote']

 

GM: "While Bob is pummelling the staircase, Titanicus Rex charges him from behind. BM does a back flip onto a nearby balcony."

 

---

 

At least there's terrain and tactics in this situation.

 

Far too often we seem to discuss combats as though they take place in the middle of a football field at midday.

 

Incidentally, you obviously should design/choose villains with an eye to the heroes' capabilities. At a bare minimum you should have at least one villain who can hit every one of the PCs' vulnerabilities. And, ideally, vice versa. Of course "hit" doesn't always mean "has an energy blast with a particular special effect", but can instead be something more situation specific.

 

Doing this will ensure that combats will be a lot less predictable and in many cases a lot more one-sided.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

GM: "While Bob is pummelling the staircase' date=' Titanicus Rex charges him from behind. BM does a back flip onto a nearby balcony."[/quote']

 

A back flip onto a balcony from out of a stairwell he was running down?

 

But we now see the issue of the "normal proof" brick. In most games, Jimmy would take some action to prevent TR taking advantage of Bob's situation. A Martial Throw seems in order. But TR, as a Brick, should not be stoppable by a lowly "normal human", so he just tramples Jimmy, despite Jimmy's superior combat skills.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

A back flip onto a balcony from out of a stairwell he was running down?

 

It's what Batman would do!

 

OK, maybe not a back flip. Some Jackie Chan-ish move anyway. The guy we are dealing with is a supervillain, after all.

 

But we now see the issue of the "normal proof" brick. In most games, Jimmy would take some action to prevent TR taking advantage of Bob's situation. A Martial Throw seems in order. But TR, as a Brick, should not be stoppable by a lowly "normal human", so he just tramples Jimmy, despite Jimmy's superior combat skills.

 

Assuming:

1. Jimmy is in position to affect TR, and wasn't pursuing BM instead.

2. There is nothing to prevent a "normal proof" brick from being Martial Thrown, unless we are talking about one using Desol Invulnerability or something equally strange.

3. Of course, if TR was using flight or some similar "anchoring" power, Jimmy wouldn't be able to do that - but TR would have actually bought that ability, and should get the benefits of it.

 

Really a "normal proof" brick is just a brick that has bought stuff that makes them "normal proof". It's not something to get excited about.

 

Buying special "normal proofing" powers borders on the cheesy, though. In fact, they are fine examples of excessively complicated character building. Worse, they can come close to being an attempt to circumvent a GM's campaign limits by stealth.

 

A GM should, of course, consider the potential interactions between PCs and "normals" when setting such limits. If they do that properly there should not need to be any circumventions.

[Sidume]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

To "normal proof" your brick, just give him a HKA damage shield as a result of his ridiculous defenses: 1d6 HKA (DS +1/2, Can't add STR - 1/2, Only applies to physical attacks that don't do body beyond the bricks PD - 1/2, Reduced Stun mod -1/4)

 

Joe Normal will punch the brick once, break his fist, and decide to run away. At least if he has sense anyway. Joe Martial Artist may be a threat, but that's called game balance.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Bob: "Hold on there, Jimmy - my Brick will raise his mighty fists and pummel the top of the staircase. That should collapse the stairs, making Ol' BM fall. Assuming he's still conscious, you should be able to take him out while he's prone."

 

Jimmy: "Great, Bob - thanks for the help. Guess I'll tie up the Bloodninja, then sit around and watch Bob fight TR, since a normal human can't help in combat against a mighty Brick."

 

I prefer to have the characters each face multiple different kinds of challenges, some possibly tailored to their individual abilities and others perhaps lacking such obvious solutions.

 

 

If that worked that easy the GM should be fired. No way would it be that easy in my campaign.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I have been lurking on this thread off and on, but I thought I'd post my thoughts.

 

As a lifelong comics geek, and I always go back to the source material. Martial Artists in comics do face off against Bricks, but the understanding was always that they did not expect to be able to KO them. Just as they knew that "If he tags me one more time, I'm out of it." or "I was lucky to roll with that punch. The next one will take my head off."

 

Daredevil fought the Hulk, but he got his horned hat handed to him. Everyone knew that he would not be able to damage the Hulk, including DD. In fact I would go so far as to say ESPECIALLY DD!! The point of the story was to show that he was willing to go up against a vastly superior opponent to protect innocents. He did a lot of dodging and running around. His best attacks did not even break Hulks stride, but he succeeded in distracting him long enough to save lives. If I was GMing that, the player would have won the experience point lotto for great roleplaying. I would never tell the player that he had not accomplished anything, even though he lost. I remember the cops scraping DD up off of the pavement after that meeting and basically saying that he had big brass ones. DD earned rep ,Karma, or whatever you want to call it for the heroism of his actions.

 

There was a great Legion story where Chameleon Boy was without his powers and he had to get away from the other Legionnaires to clear his name. He took out Mon-El (?) with a well-timed Martial Throw. Now the throw didn't hurt Mon-El, but he redirected him into a forcefield protecetd area of some sort. Mon-El overshot the target by so much that he couldn't readjust in time to target Cham again before Cham could make good on his escape. Cham used his head and the surroundings to get a temporary advantage. Again, a player that came up with something like that on the fly would get a few XP points off me.

 

In a team setting, the martial artist sometimes has to play that type of role. Even if he can't KO the Brick, he can distract him or cause him to use up END and actions until the situation improves, setting him up for a coordinated attack or a Hulk-Killer blast from another team member. That's part of the genre, and I would reward that type of thing, so that the player would not feel frustrated. Rope-a-dope is alive and well. His teammates had better appreciate the effort too.

 

In comics, I only get concerned when I see Batman slugging it out with Darkseid--albeit with the aid of Apokolyptian tech--too often. That is too much of a power gap for me to buy into on a regular basis. Sometimes it makes for a nice moment in the story. I'm thinking Supes vs. Bats in Dark Knight, but even them the outcome was never in doubt.

 

Gamewise, I think that Bricks are failrly normal proof as it is. Every common criminal will not have access to the high-tech, military-grade weapons that you need to really stop a Brick. Heroes should be wary of well-equipped agents in groups. That is in genral. Even Supes takes a little stun when Intergang busts out the really big guns. IMO, if Bats sees an ion cannon pointed at him, he better frigging dodge.

 

I do like the real weapon/ real person option, though. I might think about that one a little more.