Normal-proofing your Bricks?

[Pattern Ghost]

In comics, Bricks are usually nigh-invulnerable to anything resembling a normal human or a normal human weapon. Now, you may not want to model the extreme ends of that spectrum in a game, such as shrugging off nukes or even crew-served weapons, but you certainly want bullets to bounce off your chest, and you don't want to get whittled down to size by that pesky "normal" martial artist. Daredevil doesn't damage the Hulk, he doesn't put a dent in Luke Cage, and his best billy club whack to the back of the Thing's skull is as likely to be confused for rain drops.

 

Hero/Champions has quite a different paradigm at work, however. If you follow the guidelines for max defenses, even a fairly modest martial artist is going to cut you down to size eventually. There are great offensive ways to deal with the pests, but if you stay within most campaign limits, it's hard to simply ignore them.

 

Let's crunch some numbers: Typical Def at 25. Let's brick up a bit and buy a nice round 30 for PD.

 

Now, Joe Dojo walks in, strapping young hero that he is, with his mighty 20 STR (4d6), his Offensive Strike (4d6), His Baseball Bat or 2 DC levels (let's say 2d6), and some CSLs left over to add to damage due to our CV differences (let's say 2 levels, or 6 STUN). So, Joe Dojo is tossing out an impressive 10d6 damage, +6 STUN. On average, that's 41 STUN. On an *average* hit, we're taking 11 of that damage. Let's say he hits us with that attack six times in a Turn, and lands four of those. That's 44 STUN for the Turn. Ouch?

 

I've never heard of GMs imposing "real-human" limitations on human origin or NCM characters, so we're going to have to solve this little break from comic reality some other way, without violating (at least not too much) the spirit of the rules (the no absolutes thing) or campaign guidelines (i.e. not pumping PD up to 45 and calling it a day).

 

Perhaps some extra defenses or damage reduction with "only versus real humans"? Invisibile Missile Deflect like the one 4th Ed brick had to handle bullets? Desolid, only versus Uppity Martial Artists?

 

I don't have the Ultimate Brick, and I don't intend to own it in the near future. This thread is more intended to work out a compromise between comic realism and Champions realism among our collective brains, rather than to aid in building any particular character. So, suggestions of checking out that fine publication are certainly not frowned upon, but they're not exactly what I'm looking for if you know what I mean.

[Mike W]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Well, given that even a slow super brick has 17 DEX, Joe Normal probably doesn't have the CVs to waste on extra damage. And does he have martial arts WITH the baseball bat? Probably not. I mean, how many people have enough martial arts WEAPONS training to get that kind of damage(10d6). Truthfully, not many. I know several people with martial arts training. But I've only met one person who I think could come up with 10d6 damage. Also, remember that Joe Normal with 20 STR isn't your typical normal. Only a small handful of people have 20 STR, which is enough to lift over 800 pounds. And you could always apply the "real weapon" limit to the bat, which would in and of itself prevent the bat attack from doing 10d6 damage since it could, by default do more than 2x its base damage, even as blunt object.

 

Really, 30 DEF with 10-15 resistant is enough to "bulletproof" or "normal proof" your bricks from anyone without access to military grade equipment or a world class martial artist(who is far enough above "normal" that I wouldn't count it).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I agree. If it wasn't for the "Stun Lotto" most Champions bricks could probably ignore normal firearms. But the possibility of a perfect roll (say 2d6K from a rifle) and max Stun Multiple means even fairly tough bricks have to be concerned about taking significant Stun through their defenses. Not many heroes can take a 60 Stun hit and not blink.

[assault]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

In comics' date=' Bricks are usually nigh-invulnerable to anything resembling a normal human or a normal human weapon. Now, you may not want to model the extreme ends of that spectrum in a game, such as shrugging off nukes or even crew-served weapons, but you certainly want bullets to bounce off your chest, and you don't want to get whittled down to size by that pesky "normal" martial artist. Daredevil doesn't damage the Hulk, he doesn't put a dent in Luke Cage, and his best billy club whack to the back of the Thing's skull is as likely to be confused for rain drops.[/quote']

 

I don't really think it's a problem. Yes, superhuman-grade MAs can eventually wear out a Brick, if a Brick is silly enough to let them. The key word is "eventually". That is, after a long hard fight. I don't think that is unreasonable.

 

If you do want Bricks who can ignore such attacks, you should actually build a character than can do so. There is no substitute for PD here - it's what it's for!

 

Of course you could give your Brick a 44 REC, but that's overkill even by my standards.

 

I suppose you could go with Damage Reduction. Halving the 44 STUN per turn would allow it to be regained through the Post-Segment 12 recovery, assuming a typically Brick-like REC. Buying Damage Reduction on top of Brick level defences may raise some GM eyebrows though.

[Grimble]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I don't think (Only Against Real Humans) is what you want. What about a mutant with no physical powers? Aliens with comparable capabilities of a normal human? I know what you are after, but as a GM I'd tell the player that he probably wants to define the Limitation better.

 

In some campaigns, I can see your Limitation working. In my game world, there are many types of beings that should be put under the blanket of this Limitation. Not just humans.

 

I generally buy LOTS of stun and extra recovery for my Bricks. 44 Stun a Turn? So what. I have over 100 stun and recover 25, at least once a turn! Personally, If you plan on taking on other Bricks, you should be able to take what a "Super-Normal" can do to you.

 

I have a "Super-Normal" in the group I run. He's got it bad enough already. What happens when he does NOTHING to half the Villians! Right now, the player is having fun playing up the hardships of being on a Superteam with no super powers (He does have at least 10X as many skills as anyone in the group). If I were to make him even MORE ineffective in combat I think he would just give up and make another superhero. That would be a bummer, since I love his Normal and have written a lot of plot around him.

 

 

Just my $.02,

Grimble

[Bloodstone]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

You only need 24 rPD/rED to completely bounce the body of a 12 DC attack (killing or otherwise). So I'd go with Physical Damage Reduction and extra (non resistant) PD, probably with the Only vs Stun limitation.

 

This combined with Brick levels of CON and REC and you should be fine.

 

You could also buy DCV levels with the explanation that most hits just bounce right off.

[OddHat]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

The problem is Point Based character builds and Campaign limits.

 

By default, two combat oriented characters built under the same campaign guidelines on the same number of points are going to be roughly equivalent to each-other.

 

Want 350 point bricks to stand out compared to 350 point "normal" humans? Drop the campaign limits on PD, Damage Reduction and CON for Bricks, or set them by archetype so that a dedicated 350 point brick can ignore a dedicated 350 point martial artist.

 

If you think the Stun Lotto is a problem in a Supers campaign, assigning a fixed Stun Multiple of 2.5 to all killing attacks takes care of it.

[Grailknight]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

In my campaigns, we do use an expansion of Normal Char Max and the Real weapon rules to create the feel of supers being invulnerable/superior to normals.

 

20 pts- Normal char max, no defender exploits allowed, full effect from "real" weapons

 

10 pts- Real person, offensive effect, extra dc for Martial arts and damage from skill levels affect PCs and NPCs normally but do not work against objects or automatons. defensive effect- 1/4 damage reduction against all normals and real items/equipment.

 

0 pts - Default Hero setting, offensive effect 1.5 damage/effect vs normals and real world items/equipment.Haymakers vs equipment were at 4th ed 1.5 rulesbut expanded to include all attack. defensive effect 1/2 damage reduction against real world equipment.

 

Assigning these disads are just a matter of campaign flavor. Very few PC's ever took the 20 pt level but it was appropiate for a psychic pc. The Bat clones were at 10 pt level and were effective against mooks and agents but could not karate through cars or bank vaults. The supers had the JLA level of respect from Govt at 12-15 dc instead of 18-20. Never had the great tank debate because the world beaters any real word stuff without major effort.

[gojira]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Now' date=' Joe Dojo walks in, strapping young hero that he is, with his mighty 20 STR (4d6), his Offensive Strike (4d6), His Baseball Bat or 2 DC levels (let's say 2d6), and some CSLs left over to add to damage due to our CV differences (let's say 2 levels, or 6 STUN). So, Joe Dojo is tossing out an impressive 10d6 damage, +6 STUN. On average, that's 41 STUN. On an *average* hit, we're taking 11 of that damage. Let's say he hits us with that attack six times in a Turn, and lands four of those. That's 44 STUN for the Turn. Ouch?[/quote']

 

This is where you go wrong, imo. Joe Dojo is not a normal human, he's got skills close to a 250 super martial artist.

 

For me, Joe Normal is 10 STR, 14 DEX, has martial arts with no DC or weapon forms. Maybe one or two skill levels and 3 SPD, if you are simulating a very experienced black belt (basically a pro who does martial arts full time). OCV 5 to 7. If he's got a baseball bat, it might do 1d6 HKA w/ his STR (seriously, do you want to get hit in the head with a bat?), but not add to any martial arts.

 

A super brick is 65 STR, 23 DEX and 29 CON, plus 5 CSLs with HTH. OCV 13. Good luck Joe Normal even getting a shot in. Plus about 18 rPD and another 10 PD, not much damage going to get through. And my demi bricks move at speed 5 and have at least 15 REC.

 

I think you are selling your bricks short, and giving way too much to Joe Normal.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

This is where you go wrong, imo. Joe Dojo is not a normal human, he's got skills close to a 250 super martial artist.

 

l.

 

No, you missed the point. I'm talking about super martial artists with the origin of being (at least physically) a highly trained normal. I.E., posessing no super human physical attributes. Someone like Daredevil, for example. (Has sensory powers, and advanced MA training.)

[OddHat]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

No' date=' you missed the point. I'm talking about super martial artists with the origin of being (at least physically) a highly trained normal. I.E., posessing no super human physical attributes. Someone like Daredevil, for example. (Has sensory powers, and advanced MA training.)[/quote']

 

Similar points and similar limits will get you similar combat effectiveness.

 

If you let "Bricks" have a base PD of ____ and limit "Normal 350 point martial artists" attacks to a number of DC with a maximum damage of less than ____, the problem (if it is a problem) goes away.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

In my campaigns, we do use an expansion of Normal Char Max and the Real weapon rules to create the feel of supers being invulnerable/superior to normals.

 

20 pts- Normal char max, no defender exploits allowed, full effect from "real" weapons

 

10 pts- Real person, offensive effect, extra dc for Martial arts and damage from skill levels affect PCs and NPCs normally but do not work against objects or automatons. defensive effect- 1/4 damage reduction against all normals and real items/equipment.

 

0 pts - Default Hero setting, offensive effect 1.5 damage/effect vs normals and real world items/equipment.Haymakers vs equipment were at 4th ed 1.5 rulesbut expanded to include all attack. defensive effect 1/2 damage reduction against real world equipment.

 

Assigning these disads are just a matter of campaign flavor.

 

Very nice way to set the tone for a campaign! I might increase the "Normal" Disad. value, but it's the concept that counts. What do you mean by "no defender exploits"?

[TaxiMan]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

By the way, Grailknight, where in San Antonio do you live? I'm on the west side near Sea World. I've never noticed anyone else from San Antonio on the boards.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Similar points and similar limits will get you similar combat effectiveness.

 

If you let "Bricks" have a base PD of ____ and limit "Normal 350 point martial artists" attacks to a number of DC with a maximum damage of less than ____, the problem (if it is a problem) goes away.

 

Of course, so do martial artist characters, unless you give them some compensatory advantage. What if we let Bricks take enough PD to completely ignore attacks from Martial Artists, but Bricks are not permitted to buy an OCV sufficient to hit a Martial Artist on anything but a "3"?

[OddHat]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Of course' date=' so do martial artist characters, unless you give them some compensatory advantage. [/quote']

 

Of course. As I posted, it comes down to trying to simulate comic book material using a point based system where Bricks and Martial Artists are operating under the same campaign limits. The Comic Book Hulk and Daredevil would not be built on the same number of points in a faithful port to HERO, and they would not be inflicting or soaking damage in the same ballpark. A 350 point Hulk and a 350 point Daredevil in a campaign with a 12 DC Max and 24 Max PD are going to be much closer, unless the GM chooses to lift the limits on one or the other.

[Certified]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Getting rid of all the damage costs a ton and can easily exceed campaign limits but applying multiple powers to the problem can help to minimize the damage and ignore what damage they do take.

 

Here are a few tricks I like to give a heavy brick, starting with fully resistant PD and ED and 50% Resistant Damage Reduction for both. Assuming it’s a PD 30 with a Decent Recovery (10 or so) they can shrug off most guns up to about the Shotgun and Heavy Weapons Class. (Around a 2d6 killing attack) With a PD 40 that means a single Recovery action heals all damage from a 60 Stun attack.

 

Following that another thing to consider is removing the damage. Taking Healing (Regeneration) or a few levels of SPD with the limitation (Only for Recovery Actions) can help this a lot. Both have advantages so it’s a question what works best for the character.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

In my campaigns, we do use an expansion of Normal Char Max and the Real weapon rules to create the feel of supers being invulnerable/superior to normals.

 

20 pts- Normal char max, no defender exploits allowed, full effect from "real" weapons

 

10 pts- Real person, offensive effect, extra dc for Martial arts and damage from skill levels affect PCs and NPCs normally but do not work against objects or automatons. defensive effect- 1/4 damage reduction against all normals and real items/equipment.

 

0 pts - Default Hero setting, offensive effect 1.5 damage/effect vs normals and real world items/equipment.Haymakers vs equipment were at 4th ed 1.5 rulesbut expanded to include all attack. defensive effect 1/2 damage reduction against real world equipment.

 

Assigning these disads are just a matter of campaign flavor. Very few PC's ever took the 20 pt level but it was appropiate for a psychic pc. The Bat clones were at 10 pt level and were effective against mooks and agents but could not karate through cars or bank vaults. The supers had the JLA level of respect from Govt at 12-15 dc instead of 18-20. Never had the great tank debate because the world beaters any real word stuff without major effort.

 

Nice approach. I use a similar system, which I posted to the boards recently: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1235256

 

I have to think more about integrating my rules with your NCM scaling. Perhaps it could even be extended in the other direction, with supers characters buying Perks to represent them being more effective against mundane people and objects.

[Psylint]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I think you're discounting insanely high Recovery, Stun, and Con. In my review of the material, Ben Grim, Hulk, and other prototypical bricks feel pain, but shrug it off. I also think, perhaps, you are placing too much faith in the Stun Lotto. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 2d6 RKA do 60 Stun, it is a less than 1 in 200 shot, so forgive me, but my heart refuses to bleed. I would not like to run a campaign where bricks took absolutely no damage from a 2d6 Killing Attack, because then they'd mostly like take no damage from a pushed 14d6 Energy Blast, and that's just too much.

 

In any event, I think the better solution would be something like this:

 

"Pain is in your mind (No mind, no pain)" xd6 Succor Stun, Body, self only. This is a constant power, so you can bump up your totals, and then turn it off again when the evil normals with guns are defeated. Costs End.

 

Maybe someone like Ben Grimm, who was all stony, could buy Desolid only to protect against damage, only versus physical killing attacks.

 

You could also try "Grin and bear it" xd6 Healing Stun, Constant, Persistent, 0 End. And just keep track of your wounds. Though a GM is likely to bounce it as it would render you more or less invulnerable to everything.

 

"Did little man hit me?" Absorpotion to Stun xd6 +x maximum. Every time you get hit, you get more Stun to play with.

 

But seriously, how many times have your bricks been stunned or knocked out by normals?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Of course. As I posted' date=' it comes down to trying to simulate comic book material using a point based system where Bricks and Martial Artists are operating under the same campaign limits. The Comic Book Hulk and Daredevil would not be built on the same number of points in a faithful port to HERO, and they would not be inflicting or soaking damage in the same ballpark. A 350 point Hulk and a 350 point Daredevil in a campaign with a 12 DC Max and 24 Max PD are going to be much closer, unless the GM chooses to lift the limits on one or the other.[/quote']

 

That's exactly the situation I was getting at in my original post. Game balance and a sense of fairness tend to move things further away from the source material. Which I really have no problems with. The question then becomes how to nudge things a bit closer to the source without breaking the game.

 

You can run lower powered games and higher powered games, but mixed power levels can be difficult when it comes to combat situations. Combat in Hero can be time consuming, and the "normals" don't want to be sidelined for an evening because they can't contribute. If your opponents are also mixed teams, then you can have the power houses pair off against each other in comic style, but that'd involve a bit of collusion between players and GM. Or, you could provide some other tasks for the lower powered guys to do while the power houses square off. That presents interesting problems for the GM as well, and is probably the type of thing best done by a two GM team.

 

One of the longest running games I was in used the old MSH rules. The game was cool in that you could play the folks with normal human attributes alongside the power houses... the only problem was that few people wanted to play a character that couldn't dent the opposition, so the group was an Avengers level team sans any of the lower level types like Hawkeye.

 

Now, there's one thing that I did like about the MSH write ups: Most characters didn't have attributes even in the upper human range unless they were part of their power set or the result of extraordinary training. This meant that "normal" humans could have Agility and Fighting scores close to the super human range, while most superhuman folks (aside from the power houses) frequently had these stats in a much lower range. For example, peak human Agility was only one rank lower than Spider-Man's agility -- but darn few non powered characters actually had it in official write ups. So, the idea of enforcing CV limits scaled to damage output has some attraction in simulating the comics, but you just won't have the higher point level power houses available to players.

 

Anyway, some great ideas in this thread, keep them coming. Also, sorry for not being as clear as I intended in my original post, I wrote it somewhat hastily last night when I had a huge headache.

[casualplayer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Something I've started doing for bullet-bouncing bricks is buying this:

 

Immune to Mortal Peril-75% Physical Damage Reduction STUN only, Real world or environmental damage only

 

This combined with a smidge of rPD stops all small arms fire virtually dead, lets you shrug off getting hit by a car or falling from a building or laugh off all those munchkins that bought their gear Real Weapon while still letting super martial artists get their licks in.

[Certified]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Something I've started doing for bullet-bouncing bricks is buying this:

 

Immune to Mortal Peril-75% Physical Damage Reduction STUN only, Real world or environmental damage only

 

This combined with a smidge of rPD stops all small arms fire virtually dead, lets you shrug off getting hit by a car or falling from a building or laugh off all those munchkins that bought their gear Real Weapon while still letting super martial artists get their licks in.

 

I like that a lot, very nice.

[David Johnston]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Well the first thing to remember is that Marvel martial artists generally suck. They really aren't built on the same number of points as the Hulk so it's no wonder that DD can't hurt the big guy. He simply isn't playing in the same weight-class. Amping the Hulk's PD up to 45 is in fact the right answer. He's their world class archetypical brick. Daredevil is a Dark Champions character skulking in an alley and fighting guys who dress like clowns or try to to get the upper hand by waving a bullfighter's cape around. Daredevil has trouble with Wilson Fisk, much less the Hulk. Want a Hulk-Class martial artist? Look at Karnak of the Inhumans. Maybe Moondragon.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Hm....

 

While all the rest is interesting, I don't think it applies to your initial example. Joe Dojo is NOT normal, and should not be Disadvantaged as such. He is an exceptional character. As statted, in the comics, he would be one of those people who can compete with these supers because he is just that good.

 

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

[Victim]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Hm....

 

While all the rest is interesting, I don't think it applies to your initial example. Joe Dojo is NOT normal, and should not be Disadvantaged as such. He is an exceptional character. As statted, in the comics, he would be one of those people who can compete with these supers because he is just that good.

 

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

 

The problem is that Joe Dojo is not just that good, he's a strong guy with a minimum of martial arts and a bat. Sure, the stats we've seen could just be the tip of the iceberg and Joe could be awesome badass. But he could also be like a 50 point bruiser.

 

Mechanically, an Absorption that feeds back into Stun can keep a Brick going longer, especially if it boosts itself to increase the cap.

[Squall]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Interesting thread, but I think the nail's already been hit on the head with this one -- it's just a matter of points.

 

While you can squeak by with the basics of a Daredevil or a Nightwing for probably 250 or so, you can make a solid (very solid) Daredevil for probably 350-400, realistically. He'd have plenty of cool stuff from the comics, at that level. He can tackle a half dozen thugs without much trouble at all, take on a (similarly pointed) pseudo-Brick Kingpin with a good 50/50 shot, jump real far, run pretty fast, and all that good stuff.

 

You can't really make a Ben Grimm, Colossus, or a Hulk for 350. Not really. Nevermind a Superman or Captain Marvel. With even half of the Brick Tricks we see these guys pull off, I'd estimate a good solid 600 or so even for the lower-end of these guys (Thing, Colossus, and those two are only that low because both have a few decent disad's just off the top of my head), up to an easy 800+ for the Hulk, and probably four digit numbers for Big Blue (or any other Kryptonian).

 

The problem is, no one wants to play a 250 point Nightwing alongside a 1200 point Superman real often. If they do, the fact stands -- Nightwing and his escrima sticks don't scare Krypton's Last Son, by a longshot. But that's just an issue of game balance and simple math.