Normal-proofing your Bricks?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Along with what alot of people have said, Joe Dojo as described isn't a normal. Any martial artist that can haul out 10d6-12d6 attacks is a super-level individual. And a 350 point brick *shouldn't* be able to ignore a 350 point martial artist, or even a 250 point martial artist. Or, for that matter, a 250 point *anything*, barring some specialty of design that probably comes at an expense against other archetypes.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

The problem is that Joe Dojo is not just that good, he's a strong guy with a minimum of martial arts and a bat. Sure, the stats we've seen could just be the tip of the iceberg and Joe could be awesome badass. But he could also be like a 50 point bruiser.

 

Mechanically, an Absorption that feeds back into Stun can keep a Brick going longer, especially if it boosts itself to increase the cap.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, only helpful. Tell me if I am failing.

 

With 20 STR, he can pick up a bear, or a sailboat. Approximately 800 pounds. If he Pushes... he can do more.

 

On that front alone, is he an exceptional individual. The kind you would hear stories about, and just think it's someone yanking your chain, or exagerration.

 

Two CSLs is not a "minimum" amount of martial arts. He is quite skilled. An "average" martial artist could be built (if you wanted) just buying the martial arts... without skill levels. This guy is good enough that he can add additional damage beyond what the art itself initially provides. He is that good. That puts even more skilled people into additional perspective.

 

He is using a weapon. That is the fourth factor increasing his deadliness (his STR, his martial maneuver, his CSLs, and then a weapon).

 

All together, I really don't see how this guy can be ranked as "normal." Honestly. He is not a mook.

 

A brick can and should take him apart, but lower level bricks would be silly to just stand there and "take it" as some sort of macho display. Actually, this guiy would make a good wake up call to players.

[Mike W]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

No' date=' you missed the point. I'm talking about super martial artists with the origin of being (at least physically) a highly trained normal. I.E., posessing no super human physical attributes. Someone like Daredevil, for example. (Has sensory powers, and advanced MA training.)[/quote']

 

Ok, the thread title kind of threw me. Still, the guy you present is no threat to a real brick. I mean, ok, so the martial artist can hit the brick, a lot. If you cheat on your CVs, you're toast in within one turn when you get CON stunned on one punch. Theoretically, there is no point in "normal proofing" every brick when a superheroic martial artist is by definition, not "normal". Even if the person is technically a "normal human" like Daredevil. Three reasons why:

 

1. It messes up the power scale too much and expand it beyond what works well. Normal proofing the bricks makes them immune to a lot of the mid-level non-humans as well. Or close enough to make them no threat.

2. It's a lot harder than you think since you need to buy various NND defenses. And at least one level of hardened DEF. And don't forget Lack of Weakness to offset Find Weakness. It gets expensive quickly.

3. One of the things that gets argued about the most is exactly how "immune" certain people really are to various attack in the comics. Truthfully, when it comes to bricks, the difference between totally immune and "does not take significant STUN" is imporant. If you have a normal character with, say 25 DEF and 40 STUN, do you care if some guy hits you for 28 STUN? No. Not unless you were already running low. 3 STUN is something you shrug off. If you're a brick with 80 STUN and 30 DEF, do you really care if some little pipsqueak hits you for 35 STUN? Probably not. 5 STUN is beneath your notice. I hate to use a wrestling analogy, but it's kind of like "no selling" a wrestling move. Normally, in a wrestling match the guy getting hit is supposed to "sell" the move, or make it look good. But some big guys will, when appropriate "no sell" a move and act like it didn't hurt. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but the guy makes you THINK it didn't. Same thing here. Maybe the little guy got a few STUN through, you still have 75 STUN left out of 80 and a REC in the 20s, do you REALLY care?

[Psylint]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I still thinking that Bricks should take damage and then be able to recover it, rather than being completely normal proof, but... if you're still determined.

 

13rpd 13red Forcewall self only. That will pretty much normal proof you. No worries from anything less than a crew operated machine gun, and even those evil martial artists are going to have a really hard time coming up with 14 body.

 

Sad thing is that it's stupidly cost efficient and totally stealth munchkin. There's even precedent in the general rules and in the Ultimate Gadgets (under Questionite Shield or something).

 

Active cost is (90 pts) Real Cost ? self only -1/2, no range -1/2 etc..

 

Personally, I think Forcewall (self only; no range) is one of the most broken powers ever, but there you have it.

[OddHat]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Force Wall based invulnerability has its advantages, but it requires Indirect for you to attack through it and tends to fail at times when you really need it.

 

I might build a really "Invulnerable" brick with 42+ PD and ED, resistant and hardened, plus 3/4 Damage Reduction PD and ED, a CON of 28+, a BOD of 20+, and a REC of 20+. Add in Regeneration with the Resurrection adder and 20 or so Power Defense, and maybe full life support. There's not all that much that will hurt him on average in most of the published HERO books, and even a tac nuke on average won't kill him, at least not for long.

 

Of course such a character is expensive, but you can get a pretty near invulnerable character on 350 points. Why you'd want to is another question.

 

MORE OR LESS INVULNERABLE DAVE

 

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

70 STR 60 23- Lift 409.6tons; 14d6 [7]

14 DEX 12 12- OCV: 5/DCV: 5

28 CON 36 15-

15 BODY 10 12-

8 INT -2 11- PER Roll 11-

8 EGO -4 11- ECV: 3

20 PRE 10 13- PRE Attack: 4d6

10 COM 0 11-

 

12+8 PD -2 Total: 12/20 PD (12/20 rPD)

6+14 ED 0 Total: 6/20 ED (6/20 rED)

3 SPD 6 Phases: 4, 8, 12

20 REC 0

56 END 0

64 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 126

 

Movement: Running: 6"/12"

Leaping: 14"/28"

Swimming: 2"/4"

 

Cost Powers END

9 Steel Hard Skin and Bones: Damage Resistance (12 PD/6 ED)

41 More or Less Steel Hard: Armor (8 PD/14 ED), Hardened (+¼) (41 Active Points)

144 More or Less Invulnerable: (Total: 144 Active Cost, 144 Real Cost) Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (Real Cost: 60) plus Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (Real Cost: 60) plus Life Support (Longevity: Immortal; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing) (Real Cost: 24)

23 Always gets Back Up Eventually: Healing 1 BODY, Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Persistent (+½) (70 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Minute (-1 ½), Self Only (-½)

 

Skills

1 KS: The Superhero World 8-

2 PS: Fitness Trainer 11-

2 KS: Exercise and Nutrition 11-

1 SS: Steroids 8-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 223

Total Cost: 349

 

200+ Disadvantages

10 Reputation: Weight training Superhuman moron, 11-

10 Public ID: Not bright enough to hide identity (Occasionally, Major)

15 Distinctive Features: Cartoonishly muscular metahuman (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)

10 Psychological Limitation: Doesn't like to think that much (Common, Moderate)

20 Psychological Limitation: Overconfidence (Very Common, Strong)

10 Psychological Limitation: Braggart (Common, Moderate)

10 Psychological Limitation: Show Off (Common, Moderate)

64 Experience Points

(1 points unspent)

 

Total Disadvantage Points: 349

 

Background/History: More or Less Invulnerable Dave believes that he just got really strong and tough through weight training, but the popular consensus is that he's an idiot.

 

Personality/Motivation: Happy, cheerful, friendly, dim.

 

Quote: I am here to pump you up!

 

Powers/Tactics: Dave is impossibly strong and tough, but a lousy combatant by Supers standards. He’ll wander around with a vague grin, try and get people to work out with him, maybe occasionally try to hit someone.

 

Campaign Use: Comic relief.

 

Appearance: Tall over-muscular grinning goon.

[Mike W]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Force Wall based invulnerability has its advantages, but it requires Indirect for you to attack through it and tends to fail at times when you really need it.

 

I might build a really "Invulnerable" brick with 42+ PD and ED, resistant and hardened, plus 3/4 Damage Reduction PD and ED, a CON of 28+, a BOD of 20+, and a REC of 20+. Add in Regeneration with the Resurrection adder and 20 or so Power Defense, and maybe full life support. There's not all that much that will hurt him on average in most of the published HERO books, and even a tac nuke on average won't kill him, at least not for long.

 

Of course such a character is expensive, but you can get a pretty near invulnerable character on 350 points. Why you'd want to is another question.

 

 

This guy is amusing. I may have to steal him for a one off in my next Champs campaign.

[Psylint]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

True, you'd need Indirect for your attacks (generally only Strength, but whatever)

 

Furthermore, if you wanna be super munckin about it, put it in a multipower. Forcewall to wade through the minions, and then Force Field for when you toe-to-toe with Great Hulking Mass from Parts Remote.

 

Still, I feel inspired. I will endeavor to create the munchkin Invulnerable Brick on 250 pts. Give me a couple of days.

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

According to my experience, the most efficient way to normal-proof a super is:

 

Weapons of Puny Humans Cannot Touch Me: Desolidification (affected by Superpowers), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects, SFX Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Non-Nuclear Real Weapons (-1), Always On (-1/2)

[Squall]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Is "only to protect against non-nuclear real weapons" really a -1, to most people? How many nukes do you guys run into in your games?

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Is "only to protect against non-nuclear real weapons" really a -1' date=' to most people? How many nukes do you guys run into in your games?[/quote']

 

Admittably, very few. But it does not matter, the nuclear bit is just an effective 0-value qualifer on the limitation for flavour, since typically in comics even cosmic-level bricks that cannot be killed by *any* normal weapon still feel the pain or are stunned for a while when they eat a nuclear blast, while they laugh off bullets or missiles (cfr. Post-Crisis Superman and Thor, who both survived nuclear blasts at zero range without serious wounds, but it stunned or knocked them out for a while). The limitation itself is just a normal application of the -1 "Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Damage" Limitation on Desolidification that allows to convert the insubstantiality power into complete invulnerability against a particular form of damage or special effect. Cfr. 5th ed. rev. p. 149. In this case, the damage form shielded against is "real weapons", while any form of superpower can still harm the super, proved it bypasses the other usual defense powers the character may have. So you can have a brick that can laugh off normal weapons, while can still feel the pain from an energy blast or super-strong punch.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Or an Affects Desolid attack, which will astonish the characters in question.

 

Which is why I *hate* the "Desolid Invulnerability" method.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Is "only to protect against non-nuclear real weapons" really a -1' date=' to most people? How many nukes do you guys run into in your games?[/quote']

 

What percentage of attacks in a typical Supers game are from "real weapons"? Of those, how many are "serious threat" attacks, and how many are just mooks who weren't intended to pose a serious threat to the characters anyway? Maybe -1 is too low a limitation.

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Or an Affects Desolid attack, which will astonish the characters in question.

 

Which is why I *hate* the "Desolid Invulnerability" method.

 

This may be a concern for the method in general, but only really if the character meets cosmic or magic hyper-versatile guys with a cosmic VPP or Versatile Advantage on their Attack Powers, who can then justify whipping out an Affects Desolidified Attack on the fly (how often do you buy a multipower slot with that Advantage, other wise; it is pretty rare, in my experience). And in that case, these guys might just as likely whip out attacks that bypass other kind of invulnerabilities.

 

Nonetheless, in the case at hand, this is a complete non-issue, since I cannot see any case where it would be tenously justified to put an Affects Desolidified on Real Weapons, apart from the exotic rare case of some cosmic or magician or gadgeteer guy using its VPP to enchant some mundane firearm. Anyway, that would be outside the purpose of the power, which is to make the super completely immune to real-world mundane weapons, from hanguns and swords to anti-tank rockets and bunker-blasting bombs. An handgun enchanted to hit ghosts is a superpower, and hence outside the scope of the power. There's no way under the sun that mooks or army stuff may have Affects Desolidified.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I believe that default Desolid still requires the character to breathe, so you can hurt Desolid characters with NND that attack via that method.

[braincraft]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

For forcewall-based invulnerability, it's pretty trivial to just add in Personal Immunity when you're throwing in all sorts of other advantages, like 0 END Persistent, Invisible Power Effects, and Hardened.

 

 

I believe that default Desolid still requires the character to breathe' date=' so you can hurt Desolid characters with NND that attack via that method.[/quote']

 

Of course, if you're blowing the points on invulnerability, it's a no-brainer to throw in the points for LS.

[Certified]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

So here we go one A+ Force Wall

 

Golden Boy's Revenge 113 Force Wall (14 PD/14 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (227 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

 

 

On a 350 point character that's a third of the characters total points. There's also the question of Active Point Limits.

[OddHat]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

For forcewall-based invulnerability' date=' it's pretty trivial to just add in Personal Immunity when you're throwing in all sorts of other advantages, like 0 END Persistent, Invisible Power Effects, and Hardened.[/quote']

Personal immunity doesn't let you exert strength through your own force wall; the only official option that does is Indirect purchased on your strength. However, the GM does have the option to allow strength to bypass a force wall that only protects against one special effect, such as bullets.

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

So here we go one A+ Force Wall

 

Golden Boy's Revenge 113 Force Wall (14 PD/14 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (227 Active Points); Always On (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2)

 

Just a quick point efficiency friendly advice, using IPE at fully invisible level is rather wasteful for invulnerability effects, you don't generally want to disguise the fact you are tough, just what makes it so, no glowing force fields or suchlike, so you just need IPE (SFX only; +1/2).

 

I believe that default Desolid still requires the character to breathe, so you can hurt Desolid characters with NND that attack via that method.

 

Yes, but again, this is an issue if you use either limited Desolid or Force Wall to do invulnerability to normal stuff. If you want to protect against normal chemical and biological weapons, you need a sizable LS also. Luckily, it is quite easy for brick and energy projector guys to justify having both kinds of defenses.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Just a quick point efficiency friendly advice' date=' using IPE at fully invisible level is rather wasteful for invulnerability effects, you don't generally want to disguise the fact you are tough, just what makes it so, no glowing force fields or suchlike, so you just need IPE (SFX only; +1/2). [/quote']

 

Even that's debatable. His SFX are "he's really tough".

 

Sight: The bullets just bounce off!

Hearing: "Ping Ping Ping"

Touch: OW - he's so tought, it hurts my fist to punch him.

[Wanderer]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

Even that's debatable. His SFX are "he's really tough".

 

Sight: The bullets just bounce off!

Hearing: "Ping Ping Ping"

Touch: OW - he's so tought, it hurts my fist to punch him.

 

As you say, it is debatable; Mind you, I am leaning to rule it the way you suggest, but some more strict GMs may ask for IPE (SFX only) in order to keep the defense power skintight and subtle, especially when it is built using Force Screens and Force Fields, that according to genre conventions are often visualized as not very subtle. This may be relevant if our normal-proofed Brick/Energy Projector is assumed to have a Secret ID. After all, invulnerability is one of the most common ways SIDs risk to be blown in comics and movies. Nonetheless, I would agree wiuth you (I'm all for point efficiency:cool: )

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

As you say' date=' it is debatable; Mind you, I am leaning to rule it the way you suggest, but some more strict GMs may ask for IPE (SFX only) in order to keep the defense power skintight and subtle, especially when it is built using Force Screens and Force Fields, that according to genre conventions are often visualized as not very subtle. This may be relevant if our normal-proofed Brick/Energy Projector is assumed to have a Secret ID. After all, invulnerability is one of the most common ways SIDs risk to be blown in comics and movies. Nonetheless, I would agree wiuth you (I'm all for point efficiency:cool: )[/quote']

 

I'd probably call that suite of senses a -1/4 IPE, same as a flash supressor, in that the source of the power isn't immediately visible, but the effect is. That is, as a build using a non persistant power for the base, barring some form of IPE there should be a visible SFX that lets you know that SOMETHING is going on with the target. All the listed sense effects are only detectable AFTER the target has already been hit.

[dmcfarland]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

For one thing Daredevil and hulk are two different types of characters. The hulk is rampaging engine of destruction.

 

Daredevil is a superb martial artist with badass sensory abilities that are far beyond those of a normal human. The hulk is dumb and not as fast.

 

Think of someone like Eagle eye as Daredevil and Grond as the Hulk. Thats what they're reffering too.

 

I highly doubt that a thug with a base ball bat is going to have martial arts or a we for baseball bats. So the thug is only throwing out 6d6 dc's max and more like 5d6 if hes a stronger thug or 4d6 if hes a normal thug.

 

And thank god Hero isn't like Marvel or Dc. Daredevil can't lay a hand on Luke cage in that system, bc it sucks, but can have a chance against him in hero.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

I can't believe people are still having a hard time grasping "Normal" as an ORIGIN, I was NEVER talking about a normal guy off the street. Learn to read for crying out loud.

[Squall]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

*sigh* Yeah. That's the way to get people to respond constructively in your thread.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Normal-proofing your Bricks?

 

*sigh* Yeah. That's the way to get people to respond constructively in your thread.

 

Sigh up a rope.