Fast combat?

[Tyrant]

Man,

it's been an age since the last time I was on this board.

 

Anyway, I'm toying with the idea of running a Dark Champions game.

But the last time I picked up the Hero System was a looooong time ago. I don't know how significant the changes are to 5th Rev.

 

What I'm looking for is a fast resolution system for combat. Now again, it's been some time since I ran the Hero System, but I seem to recall that the basics were pretty quick, but the options for combat quickly bogged things down.

 

My question to the community is, is combat faster now in the new edition? Or are there suggestions you can make to keep combat from getting bogged down?

 

I know hero isn't a "rules light" system. But If it can handle combat quickly and keep things cinematic, with car chases, two guns blazing firefights, and furious martial arts action, all without slowing to a crawl, then I think I'm ready for the plunge again. But I would appreciate some honest feedback. If combat is slow going, regardless of how great the game may be, I'd appreciate being told.

 

Thanks.

[Eosin]

Re: Fast combat?

 

The single most important thing for speed at the table is to have decisive players and avoid gaming with wafflers. They bog down Hero, D&D, and BESM alike...

 

Seriously, it is the same as 4th ED as far as combat goes which means that the speed of combat is decided by your collective decision making time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I think the biggest suggestion I can make for fast combat is to force the players into a timed decision making scenario - give them 15-30 seconds to decide exactly what to do, if they don't make an action they lose that Phase.

 

After that it's a matter of rolling dice and counting. If you take a few minutes at the start of each session to make a bunch of 3D6 rolls and a bunch of Effect Rolls (damage, etc) and use those iin combat you can speed things up a lot.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I'm the alien. i don't see HERO System combat as any faster or slower than anything else. Here's the skinny:

 

- Make sure you know and can adjudicate the rules properly.

- Remember the core principles of most RP combat; roll to hit, if applicable roll location, roll damage. I tend to roll To Hit & Hit Location as two sets of dice in the same roll; I will then roll damage and STUN in the same roll if Hit Locs are not being used. Some prefer to roll Hit Loc with their damage, it's a matter of taste.

- Keep a SPD CHART ON HAND.

- KEEP A SPEED CHART ON HAND.

- KEEP THE SPEED CHART ACCURATE. Make sure you and everyone else can read it. If you have the Chart, and it notes: Name, DEX, and has hash marks where SPD is, you've got 99% of the problem beat. Now it's just a matter of keeping track of what Phase you're on.

- If you're really feeling antsy, you can track turns with a counter. This helps for "timed fights" or when the bomb is going to go off and you prefer it detonate mechanically (i.e., you must disarm it) instead of dramatically (Whew! You disarmed it with 0:01 on the clock! How dramatic!)

 

Did I mention keeping a speed chart on hand?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Did I mention keeping a speed chart on hand?

 

On that note: the back of Champions Battlegrounds has some pretty handy Combat Charters, they're a good model on how to organize things to combat flows easily.

 

Champions Battlegrounds is actually a dang spiffy book come to think of it (guess who just read and reviewed it). A lot better than I was anticipating; it's even got stuff you could use in a Dark Champions game (location maps!! Mall, Park, Warehouse, Construction Site, and Amusement Park). er... right, off to bed with me.

[Vassoom]

Re: Fast combat?

 

What I'm looking for is a fast resolution system for combat. Now again, it's been some time since I ran the Hero System, but I seem to recall that the basics were pretty quick, but the options for combat quickly bogged things down.

 

My question to the community is, is combat faster now in the new edition? Or are there suggestions you can make to keep combat from getting bogged down?

 

I know hero isn't a "rules light" system. But If it can handle combat quickly and keep things cinematic, with car chases, two guns blazing firefights, and furious martial arts action, all without slowing to a crawl, then I think I'm ready for the plunge again. But I would appreciate some honest feedback. If combat is slow going, regardless of how great the game may be, I'd appreciate being told.

Well, as Fate would have it, the 5th Edition (Revised) Sourcebook has a handy sidebar starting on page 380:

NINE WAYS TO SPEED UP COMBAT

 

1. Restrict SPDs:

The more Actions the participants can take, the longer combats last. Limiting characters to relatively low SPDs (such as a maximum of 4 or 5) can help to speed combats up some.

2. Abolish The Speed Chart:

Another approach is to abandon the Speed Chart altogether and allow each character to take, for example, three Actions per Turn (or “one action per round,” with each round defined as being, say, four seconds long). This may require the GM to create some “house rules” to handle Holding an Action, speedster characters, and the like.

 

3. Be Prepared:

The GM should come to the game with a chart for his use listing the DEXs, SPDs, and other relevant combat information for the PCs and their enemies. This allows him to read off the order of combat quickly. Sometimes putting this chart up for everyone to see (by writing it on a chalkboard, for example) helps to keep the players focused on the game (albeit at the expense of letting them see the NPCs’ combat information).

 

4. Let Players Roll In Advance:

If you trust your players, let them make their Attack Rolls and other rolls before you call their DEX in a Phase. That way, instead of having to wait for Fred to roll to hit, then roll damage, then count the damage, you can just have him tell you, “I missed” or “I hit DCV 8 for 38 STUN, 7 BODY.” You could even have each player make twenty or thirty Attack Rolls and damage rolls in advance and write them down on a piece of paper for you. For each one of their attacks, you cross the next entry off the list and describe what happens.

 

5. Require VPP Preparation:

If any PC has a Variable Power Pool, only let him use powers he’s prepared in advance — don’t let him stop in mid-game to create a new gadget, spell, or ability he hasn’t already

written up.

 

6. Use Average Damage:

To save time rolling and counting damage, assume all attacks do average damage. If that becomes too predictable, roll 1d6 for damage — on a 1-2, the attack does 25% less damage, on a 5-6 33% more damage. Or, for every point by which a character makes his Attack Roll, increase the average damage of his attack by 10%.

7. Ignore STUN Damage:

For some genres, such as Fantasy, you can ignore STUN damage from ordinary attacks without negatively affecting the game. If an attacker wants to Stun (instead of kill) his target, or uses an attack that only does STUN, keep track of STUN damage, but otherwise don’t bother. This also saves the characters from having to engage in the highly unheroic act of administering a

coup de grace

to every unconscious opponent when the fight ends.

8. Don’t Let NPCs Take Recoveries:

For all but the most powerful or important enemies and NPCs, don’t apply Recoveries (even the Post-Segment 12 Recovery). Once they go down, they stay down.

 

9. Treat Minor NPCs Differently:

When the characters are facing “thugs” or other lowpowered, low-quality enemies, don’t calculate every point of damage precisely. One good, solid hit (perhaps any attack, or an attack succeeding by 3 or more on the Attack Roll) takes any thug out of the combat.

I, for one, can vouch for numbers 3, 5, 8 and 9. They help a lot just by themselves. Others (above) mentioned #4, and I hear that helps (but, personally, I've always enjoyed the dice rolling part of combat, and doing it beforehand just seems wrong to me.)

 

That said, I don't really see much difference in the speed of combat between 4E and 5E.

 

I guess, though, that if you are looking for a system that, as you describe it, "can handle combat quickly and keep things cinematic, with car chases, two guns blazing firefights, and furious martial arts action, all without slowing to a crawl", and want to know if HERO can handle that, the answer is a resounding "possibly".

 

It really all depends on the GM. I've played HERO campaigns where the GM would instantly "hand-wave" all of the extra rolls (by determining Hit Location himself, for example), and since he knew all of the rules inside out, he could keep the action moving very swiftly. Other GMs, on the other hand, don't seem to mind the "meticulousness" and "granularity" of some HERO combat mechanics, and they tend to mosey along at a much slower pace.

 

My recommendation: Use many or all of the above 9 suggestions, and then add a couple more of your own. For example, if you are playing "Dark Champions", but your characters are "good guys" who rarely kill anyone, then ignore BODY damage, and "hand wave" the bleeding stuff as you see fit. If you are looking for a darker, grittier campaign...then keep the BODY damage, but skip "extra" steps that require more dice rolls such as Hit Location, Knockdown, EGO rolls, etc. As the primary storyteller, the GM should always have license to creatively fill in those details as they see fit anyway, rather than simply relying on dice rolls.

 

The GM sets the tone. If you want "fast and furious", you can always get it there by simply using the HERO rules as a guide, rather than an instruction manual.

 

- Vassoom

[Remjin]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I've always found combat slow in Hero, d20, and Shadowrun... mechanics and players together always make it all slow.

 

Fast always comes from GM and players both knowing the rules well and not wasting time "thinking." The only real difference between Hero and other systems time-wise is how damage is rolled. With Dark Champions its less of an issue, as there are typically more killing than normal attacks. Then again, Shadowrun had kind of an irritating damage mechanic as well.

 

*shrug* Put it this way... how many more games have the ability to do all that stuff you mentioned anyway?

[Tyrant]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Thanks guys,

these are all excellent suggestions. Vassoom's highlights of the suggestions in the book have convinced me that the Hero system can in fact handle what I'm looking for, provided I tweak the rules of the game to fit the campaign I want to run. Thankfully, tweaking the rules to fit a campaign is something I recall Hero was always good at.

 

Right, off to the game store to pick up Dark Champions, Ultimate Martial Artist and the 5th Rev book...

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Short and sweet, if you want quick and easy combat, play Cyberpunk 2020 (2nd Edition). That combat system is a cheap, easy whore and I have run countless pick-up games based on its mechanics. Character creation is pretty simple, too, especially if you skip the lifepath stuff...

 

Matt "Philistine?-ME?!" Frisbee

[Tyrant]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I don`t recall which edition of CP 2020 I ran years ago, but the system left me cold. It WAS fast, I`ll give it that. But I prefer the point build character creation system of Hero to the `class`system of the CP game I recall.

[Remjin]

Re: Fast combat?

 

CP 2020 was a great game. Some annoying stuff, but overall fun. The gun jam rules made for interesting play, albeit a bit too frequently.

 

Once carried 3 pistols to bypass jams... all 3 jammed in one combat, before even the halfway point.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I've had slow nights and fast nights. It depends on the mood of the players. Also CSLs tend to increase the time of combat exponentially. One thing I've found very useful is for every player to make a chart on their character sheet with all their attacks. It lists: name, damage, OCV, DCV, applicable CSLs, then notes such as armor piercing or autofire. This prevents them from having to look at the front of the sheet for OCV and the back of the sheet for damage.

[archermoo]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I'm the alien. i don't see HERO System combat as any faster or slower than anything else. Here's the skinny:

 

- Make sure you know and can adjudicate the rules properly.

- Remember the core principles of most RP combat; roll to hit, if applicable roll location, roll damage. I tend to roll To Hit & Hit Location as two sets of dice in the same roll; I will then roll damage and STUN in the same roll if Hit Locs are not being used. Some prefer to roll Hit Loc with their damage, it's a matter of taste.

- Keep a SPD CHART ON HAND.

- KEEP A SPEED CHART ON HAND.

- KEEP THE SPEED CHART ACCURATE. Make sure you and everyone else can read it. If you have the Chart, and it notes: Name, DEX, and has hash marks where SPD is, you've got 99% of the problem beat. Now it's just a matter of keeping track of what Phase you're on.

- If you're really feeling antsy, you can track turns with a counter. This helps for "timed fights" or when the bomb is going to go off and you prefer it detonate mechanically (i.e., you must disarm it) instead of dramatically (Whew! You disarmed it with 0:01 on the clock! How dramatic!)

 

Did I mention keeping a speed chart on hand?

 

You aren't the only alien. I never considered Hero to be particularly slow. Biggest factor in my experience is keeping everyone focused on what is going on. Figuring out what they are going to do on their next phase while other people are doing their stuff, paying attention to what is going on so that they don't have to ask for a recap every time it is their phase, etc.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Hero System rules, for the most part, but the combat calculus business and tactical miniatures are a lot of work for a GM. Future incarnations of the game should address this and allow for a "quick combat" set of rules, especially for mass combats and beginning players. (Yeah, I have Sidekick rules, but no, that's not what I'm looking for.)

 

Matt "Getting-too-lazy-to-deal-with-combat-calculus" Frisbee

[archermoo]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Hero System rules, for the most part, but the combat calculus business and tactical miniatures are a lot of work for a GM. Future incarnations of the game should address this and allow for a "quick combat" set of rules, especially for mass combats and beginning players. (Yeah, I have Sidekick rules, but no, that's not what I'm looking for.)

 

Matt "Getting-too-lazy-to-deal-with-combat-calculus" Frisbee

 

What "combat calculus" are you talking about?

[GrooveD70]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Hero System rules, for the most part, but the combat calculus business and tactical miniatures are a lot of work for a GM. Future incarnations of the game should address this and allow for a "quick combat" set of rules, especially for mass combats and beginning players. (Yeah, I have Sidekick rules, but no, that's not what I'm looking for.)

 

Matt "Getting-too-lazy-to-deal-with-combat-calculus" Frisbee

 

The standard effect rule helps. Using that groovy table instead of figuring the OCV you hit in your head helps too....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Man,

it's been an age since the last time I was on this board.

 

Anyway, I'm toying with the idea of running a Dark Champions game.

But the last time I picked up the Hero System was a looooong time ago. I don't know how significant the changes are to 5th Rev.

 

What I'm looking for is a fast resolution system for combat. Now again, it's been some time since I ran the Hero System, but I seem to recall that the basics were pretty quick, but the options for combat quickly bogged things down.

 

My question to the community is, is combat faster now in the new edition? Or are there suggestions you can make to keep combat from getting bogged down?

 

I know hero isn't a "rules light" system. But If it can handle combat quickly and keep things cinematic, with car chases, two guns blazing firefights, and furious martial arts action, all without slowing to a crawl, then I think I'm ready for the plunge again. But I would appreciate some honest feedback. If combat is slow going, regardless of how great the game may be, I'd appreciate being told.

 

Thanks.

 

Hey, welcome back to the boards. I'm a newer player (about a year and small change) but I also needed to resolve combat quickly. Here's what I do to keep combat moving quickly:

 

- I keep a SPD chart on a white board that everyone can see, including DEX and phases as appropriate. When mooks come up, I add their SPD, and then any bosses the party is fighting.

 

- I avoid counting STUN as much as necessary; in many texts they suggest HRing that you just only count BODY; this makes mook fights fairly easy. The other easy method to employ is the "number of hits" rule. MOB takes X hits and goes down, although I tend to mask this as much as possible (I'm more an option 1 sort of GM). PCs take STUN damage, mooks generally don't.

 

- Primary combat resolution is the same in most systems; you roll to hit, your target reacts if necessary (Abort), and then deal damage. Normal is easy, Killing I generally suggest people roll a STUN die along with their Killing Damage.

 

- Insofar as optional rules, the more you add, the slower you'll go. Bleeding, Impairment, Disabling - they're all good rules, i.e., they work, but they can be slow going.

 

So if you want to keep combat swift, stick to the core rules, and don't over concern yourself with STUN damage. Some of my evening thoughts.

[Tyrant]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Ignoring STUN when it comes to mooks is one of the options I've decided on to speed up combat.

 

As far as optional rules go, I'm likely to use only the hit locations, but only when a placed shot is being used. I'm going to completely ignore bleeding, knockdown, knockback...heck, I may even ignore recovery too. Keep it an "after the fight" sort of thing. I know for darn sure I'm ignoring END costs.

 

The SPD chart is a good idea and one I'll likely implement.

 

The one thing I don't know though, and this, only because I've never used it in the Hero system before, is whether I'll allow Martial Arts. I have a feeling that it would slow combat down to a crawl, which is unfortunate, because I'm kinda jonesing to run a Ninja Hero game too... Anyone have feedback on how a MA heavy game plays?

[Scarlet Drake]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I like the idea on ignoring or "hand waving" STUN for mooks but unless the PCs only have Killing Attacks; how does that work in practice? Doesn't this just make combat take the same amount of time with just less bookeeping for the GM?

 

If you can elaborate on the way you do this; I like the idea.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I like the idea on ignoring or "hand waving" STUN for mooks but unless the PCs only have Killing Attacks; how does that work in practice? Doesn't this just make combat take the same amount of time with just less bookeeping for the GM?

 

If you can elaborate on the way you do this; I like the idea.

 

It's highly dependent on the genre, but most of the games i run involve a lot of Killing Attacks -- either from blades or guns, one way or the other. However, if you're dealing Normal Damage, then you would just count the Normal BODY as would normally, although if your target has rPD he's going to soak almost anything but the STUN.

 

In this case, odds are the PCs are aware that they're going to knock someone out; I usually play this by ear. Assume your average mook has 5 PD, and is wearing 5rPD; that gives them a total of 10 PD vs. Normal Damage. Playing around with that enables you to run fairly compelling combat without going nuts with book keeping.

 

The last time they went into a hand-weapons fight I counted the Mook out once he received a total of 30+ STUN; I just added 10 for tougher opponents. So a bigger mook effectively got "more hitpoints" in terms of normal damage. Also, if they ever took a total of 20+ STUN in a single shot I generally ruled the mook was CON Stunned and stayed out of the fight for one phase.

 

Does that answer the question? And obviously, if they're using STUN Only weapon, you'll have to go ahead and use the same guidelines I outlined above.

[Vondy]

Re: Fast combat?

 

1) Know The System.

2) Memorize the Speed Chart.

3) Do OCV calculations in your head.

4) Keep everyone focused.

 

If you've got those you've got a fast combat. It took me about six months, but then I was able to run combats in my head and I never looked back. It can help to restrict speeds, but I don't actually do that to speed combats up so much as I do to maintain game scale.

[sbarron]

Re: Fast combat?

 

I like the idea on ignoring or "hand waving" STUN for mooks but unless the PCs only have Killing Attacks; how does that work in practice? Doesn't this just make combat take the same amount of time with just less bookeeping for the GM?

 

If you can elaborate on the way you do this; I like the idea.

To me, this is more than just hand waving stun. I actually treat mooks like mooks. If a PC does a lot of body, or hits the head, vitals, or stomach, the mook goes down. Hit to chest with even a decent amount of damage, mook goes down.

 

I just don't get wrapped up in book keeping for mooks at all. I put them there to get knocked down, so I let them get knocked down without worrying about it too much. It allows me to focus on other things, like keeping the pace up, or staying on top of the plot. Whether they are dead, or knocked out, or just start trying to run away depends on the setting and feel of the game I want. Whatever happens to the mooks, it should make the PCs look and feel good, regardless.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Fast combat?

 

As a fairly inexperienced GM, the first thing I did with my low-powered Champions game was the "rule of 3" -

 

If you're playing a normal, your SPD is 1.

If you're playing a hero, your SPD is 3.

If you're a superhero, your SPD is 6.

 

"Fast" characters can have a +1 SPD; that just means they have an extra phase at the beginning of the turn. This simplifies the SPD chart immensely. This also means that SPD is really just a point tax, as everyone has to take the same amount.

[1EyedJack]

Re: Fast combat?

 

Hero system combats take lots of time. Here are a few tips 1. know the rules 2. Have players that know the rules 3.If a rules question arises baring life and death of a PC make the best ruling you can at the time and research the correct anwser at a latter date. 4. Unimportant combatants that reach -10 stun are considered out of the Senerio as if they at GM's Discression 5. Do your home work, Know your villians capabities, spd, dex, Ocv, any martial arts maneuvers... ect

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: Fast combat?

 

 

The one thing I don't know though, and this, only because I've never used it in the Hero system before, is whether I'll allow Martial Arts. I have a feeling that it would slow combat down to a crawl, which is unfortunate, because I'm kinda jonesing to run a Ninja Hero game too... Anyone have feedback on how a MA heavy game plays?

 

I've found that most characters tend to know their own martial arts; they're really just additions to the combat maneuver chart, and most players take a core 2-3 (improved dodge, grapple/throw, maybe a martial strike or NND). Thus, they don't really slow combat down at all, unless there's someone trying to figure out what to do that has a bunch and doesn't have the numbers written down on their sheet.