Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

[Dust Raven]

I've seen some Mind Control powers that specifically affects things with no EGO. The difficulty of any command is based on how opposed to performing that action the target is. So how do you determine how opposed your TV is to being turned on or switching to channel 14? How opposed is a mindless zombie to just standing there and drooling? How opposed is a fully computerized truck to running over an old lady crossing the street?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

My first thought would be to estimate how far what you're commanding the object or being to do is from its normal function, and/or how much stress or damage it would suffer from following that command. For example, a television is made to change channels, so I'd put that at the "Inclined Already" level. Constantly flicking from channel to channel would put some slight strain on the television's system, and I think any device would have an instinctive "reluctance" to do so, so I'd likely call that "Wouldn't Mind Doing." Following that logic, forcing the TV to overload its own circuits so that it exploded should be "Violently Opposed."

 

For a zombie, IMO a lot will depend on what sort of zombie you're dealing with and how it's being used. If your zombie has no instinctive drives and is not currently under orders, then making it stand around and drool should be "Inclined Anyway." OTOH if the zombie is currently under orders by its recognized master to attack, and you try to Mind Control it to stop, that could be "Normally Against" or even "Violently Opposed." Likewise if the zombie is a Living Dead film-series type with an instinctive drive to feed on human flesh, I'd say forcing it to stop would be "Violently Opposed."

 

For the computerized truck, running over someone (from the truck's point of view) would amount to moving forward and steering in a particular direction, so I'd call that "Wouldn't Mind" at worst, unless the computer has some kind of collision-avoidance program or directive that would have to be overcome.

[gojira]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

My first thought is that turning the channel on your TV is Telekinesis, not Mind Control.

 

If you have a being like a Transformer (more than meets the eye!), they may not have EGO, being machines. But they do have Spirit (Transformer canon), which is probably EGO with an Alien Class of Mind (Cybertron) or a Machine Class of Mind (Cybertron again).

 

So that's how I would do it. Machines that are self-motivating have EGO with a different class of mind. Zombies maybe have some sort of Astral Spirit or something, so they can be controlled with proper type of Mind Control. Ditto with big sentient AI: Mind Control works with a Machine Class of Mind (Gibbsonian AI, for example).

 

My 2 nickels.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

My first thought is that turning the channel on your TV is Telekinesis' date=' not Mind Control.[/quote']

A TV can do much more than what the buttons on the front allow. An electrokinetic/cyberkinetic should be able to get a TV to perform those actions (or at least attempt it with some chance of success).

 

If you have a being like a Transformer (more than meets the eye!), they may not have EGO, being machines. But they do have Spirit (Transformer canon), which is probably EGO with an Alien Class of Mind (Cybertron) or a Machine Class of Mind (Cybertron again).

 

So that's how I would do it. Machines that are self-motivating have EGO with a different class of mind. Zombies maybe have some sort of Astral Spirit or something, so they can be controlled with proper type of Mind Control. Ditto with big sentient AI: Mind Control works with a Machine Class of Mind (Gibbsonian AI, for example).

 

My 2 nickels.

That works the the self aware/self motivating types. I'm wondering about those things that aren't.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

A TV can do much more than what the buttons on the front allow. An electrokinetic/cyberkinetic should be able to get a TV to perform those actions (or at least attempt it with some chance of success).

I'm not sure about that... of course it depends on the definition of the power, but are you sure you aren't doing the equivalent of saying "well, human hearts can stop, so I can Mind Control him to make him stop his heart"? I don't think generating an electrical overload is something a TV can "do", in some senses.

 

On the other hand, I can definitely see some machine-control effects that aren't mediated by visible controls or computer chips. I would let TK with the "animation" modifier do that kind of stuff, myself. When you're animating something, you don't have to know where all its bits and knobs are, you just will it to do something.

[tesuji]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

I've seen some Mind Control powers that specifically affects things with no EGO. The difficulty of any command is based on how opposed to performing that action the target is. So how do you determine how opposed your TV is to being turned on or switching to channel 14? How opposed is a mindless zombie to just standing there and drooling? How opposed is a fully computerized truck to running over an old lady crossing the street?

 

IIRC this was discussed under cyberkinesis powers in USPD.

 

To handle "machine control" for non-intelligent, non-ego machines, you buy the effect and the SFX is machine control.

 

The example they gave was needing mental illusions machine minds for fooling computers but needing images to fool simple security cameras.. Another power was an indirect EB that required "appropriate weapons in vicinity" to represent making enemy weapons "misfire" at good times.

 

So for a really broad range you might want a multipower of machne control effects or maybe a VPP though arguably a fine work tk could be used as a grab vs universal focus.

 

Several write ups i have seen have had TK with the SFX machine control or the like to represent getting hardware in the area to do what you want.

 

Another approach would be a highly variable summon defined as "controlled machines" needing "appropriate machinery nearby" to represent taking over machines in the area.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

I'm not sure about that... of course it depends on the definition of the power, but are you sure you aren't doing the equivalent of saying "well, human hearts can stop, so I can Mind Control him to make him stop his heart"? I don't think generating an electrical overload is something a TV can "do", in some senses.

 

On the other hand, I can definitely see some machine-control effects that aren't mediated by visible controls or computer chips. I would let TK with the "animation" modifier do that kind of stuff, myself. When you're animating something, you don't have to know where all its bits and knobs are, you just will it to do something.

 

Well, for one, you can tell a TV to go directly to channel N from channel A without also surving through channels B, C, D... etc. This is common to all sets that use a remote control. Depending on the set, there may be other functions but they very by brand. Mine can only set a sleep timer with the remote.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

IIRC this was discussed under cyberkinesis powers in USPD.

 

To handle "machine control" for non-intelligent, non-ego machines, you buy the effect and the SFX is machine control.

 

The example they gave was needing mental illusions machine minds for fooling computers but needing images to fool simple security cameras.. Another power was an indirect EB that required "appropriate weapons in vicinity" to represent making enemy weapons "misfire" at good times.

 

So for a really broad range you might want a multipower of machne control effects or maybe a VPP though arguably a fine work tk could be used as a grab vs universal focus.

 

Several write ups i have seen have had TK with the SFX machine control or the like to represent getting hardware in the area to do what you want.

 

Another approach would be a highly variable summon defined as "controlled machines" needing "appropriate machinery nearby" to represent taking over machines in the area.

That makes sense, but it still doesn't tell me how to make a TV turn on an off or change channels. I'm not buying Clairsentience just to turn on a TV.

[tesuji]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Changing channels on tv ot turn on/off ould be done by me as a simple TK with appropriate invisible powers etc all and fine work and lims for machine control.

 

pushing a button would be easily done with a cheap 2 strength IPE tk for around 5 cp, with appropriate lims for machine control.

 

it not even a stretch to represent it as TK as the first "voice activated remote controls" i ever saw were me and my sister, as in dad thwapping us upside the head and saying "go change the channel to 12, its time for wrasslin'"... back in the day.

[gojira]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

That makes sense' date=' but it still doesn't tell me how to make a TV turn on an off or change channels. I'm not buying Clairsentience just to turn on a TV.[/quote']

 

Hmm, but you're willing to buy Mind Control?

 

Thinking about this literally, what the remote does is send an IR signal to the TV. HERO lets one buy things like HRRP with out really specifying how one actually decodes the modulation used by AM or FM channels, so why should you specify how one encodes the TV commands? Just buy IR as a sense for both receiving and transmitting, and say you can also control TV. A GM may also require you buy a skill to represent your actual ability to control a given device.

 

Another thought: by-passing the remote and controlling the TV directly would mean inducing a voltage in exactly the right spots in a TV's circuits. You might be able to do this if you had some sort of electrical powers, and a a really good Power Skill for doing tricks with your electrical power.

 

As tesuji pointed out, any ability other than "control normal functions" means buying the Power with the SFX "controls a device" and probably a lim "IIF: Electrical Device of Opportunity"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

We always used to allow the purchase of mental powers to control non sentient machines (I make the traffic lights change, and....). It never seemed a problem. We even handwaved stuff like flicking switches to turn the lights on and such. Didn't think about it too much. It worked.

 

Now with all these extra rules, clarifications and what-not, I feel, somehow dirty when I do that.

 

Sigh.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Changing channels on tv ot turn on/off ould be done by me as a simple TK with appropriate invisible powers etc all and fine work and lims for machine control.

 

Except there are things a TV can do you can't do by pushing the buttons on the box. You can by pushing buttons in the remote, and there are some automatic functions it does without pushing buttons at all, or does later after pushing a certain sequence of buttons for programming an event.

 

As for building a remote control, that's not what I want to do. I want a cyberkinetic with the power to control machines mentally. This includes TV's, most motor vehicles in the campaign setting, cell phones, computers, evil robots rampaging the city, traffic lights, etc. I believe I only need the Power Mind Control to do this. If I'm absolutely mistaken and completely on the wrong track, I would like to know. But it might take some convincing if this is impossible.

 

 

Assuming this is possible, what level of Mind Control is needed to get these devices to do particular tasks, and/or how do I determine how "unwilling" a device with no will is to carry out a particular task? I haven't got much to work with so far. What would any particular device's effective EGO be? What can I do to determine it? Would particular devices have inherent Mental Defense?

 

Now, if Mind Control won't do what I want it do, I'm open to suggestions as to what would, but only if it does what I describe this power doing.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

We always used to allow the purchase of mental powers to control non sentient machines (I make the traffic lights change, and....). It never seemed a problem. We even handwaved stuff like flicking switches to turn the lights on and such. Didn't think about it too much. It worked.

 

Now with all these extra rules, clarifications and what-not, I feel, somehow dirty when I do that.

 

Sigh.

 

Yeah. I feel dirty telling every wonderful gamer who responds with a perfectly valid approach that "no that's not what I want, it comes close but I don't think I need to buy 7 powers to do this".

[tesuji]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

 

Except there are things a TV can do you can't do by pushing the buttons on the box. You can by pushing buttons in the remote, and there are some automatic functions it does without pushing buttons at all, or does later after pushing a certain sequence of buttons for programming an event.

TK is the hero power, letting you do all the things you could accomplish by "pushing the remotes buttons" including programming it to record later and so forth. It might not actually be "pushing buttons" but rather the electronic equivalent but the EFFECT is the same just like missile deflection "super dodge" is not actual deflection per se but is the power used for "steppin' out of the way".

 

As for building a remote control, that's not what I want to do. I want a cyberkinetic with the power to control machines mentally. This includes TV's, most motor vehicles in the campaign setting, cell phones, computers, evil robots rampaging the city, traffic lights, etc. I believe I only need the Power Mind Control to do this. If I'm absolutely mistaken and completely on the wrong track, I would like to know. But it might take some convincing if this is impossible.

Well to cite USPD for example, there are three levels of this.

 

1. Machines/computers with EGO... handled as mind control vs machine mind.

2. Machines/computers without AI so they have INT but no EGO.. they recommend again using mind control but using INT instead of ego for the computer's defenses.

3. Machines with neither Int or EGO... they recommend buying the power, the effect you wish to create, and the machine part is SFX or limitation..

Examples in print IIRC from USPD include:

An indirect EB defined as "making enemy's gun fire"

Images vs sight/sound to alter what cameras see and record.

 

What you are describing is certainly possible but it is in effect closest to a kind of mimic pool VPP where the power you can manifest is based on "what nearby machines can do".

 

That would be expensive but since it looks like a pretty severe "take over" of many foci and such, yeah, it oughtta be or so it would seem.

 

if its just flipping light switches, that can be tossed off as SFX but if it includes "switching on the enemy's teleport device or changing the coordinates for his teleportation device to send him to stronghold" there ought not to be a quick cheap sfx way to make that happen.

 

Now, if Mind Control won't do what I want it do, I'm open to suggestions as to what would, but only if it does what I describe this power doing.

 

I would go with a variation on the mimic pool notion...

VPP +2 (no roll no time) with -1/2 to -1 for "limited sfx" to reflect "only to make machines do what they do normally but under my command".

 

that way, when you take over the villains jetpack and send him rocketing to orbit, you buy flight UAA in your VPP and go to town.

 

if you want the "take over" to be resistable, beyond the usual "resistance to counter UAA powers" then you add in a custom lim along the lines of a RSR or activation roll.

[Checkmate]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

The thing you want to do is actually pretty powerful, you DO need 7 powers to do it all. You want all kinds of different effects. Just like if I want an Iceman clone, I can't buy Energy Blast, define it as ice and say it entangles too since it's ice, oh and I can build walls with my Energy Blast since it's ice.

 

You want a bunch of different effects, you're going to have to buy a bunch of different powers.

 

Now as far as the controlling the TV thing, I realize this is a GM call, but if I were the GM I would let you do whatever the remote would let you do. I would call it the slight benefit that a GM might give as if you shoot an electrical blast at someone in water some GM's might give an extra die damage.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

First let me say that I can completely empathize with what you are looking for here Dust Raven. You have a concisely conceived power and you want a simple, elegant way to model it for your character. Been there.

 

Fundamentally a TK animation style power should do exactly what you want because you are just manipulating electric circuits which are pretty low mass, so a 20 STR TK would do just about anything you need.

 

Functionally however, Checkmate is right in saying that some things that should be possible for a cyberkinetic are pretty expensive. Being able to control a suit of power armor for instance. While the power to do that from a SFX standpoint is exactly the same as manipulating the traffic lights, from a game balance standpoint it is very different. That is why you need a multipower (or VPP) to represent different effects for what is essentially the same ability. Either that, or rework your conception of the power in such a way that it can only have subtle effects that can be all modeled with a single power.

 

Its a bummer, I know, but it keeps the munchkins at bay.

___________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too

- Alice in Chains

[gojira]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

As for building a remote control' date=' that's not what I want to do. I want a cyberkinetic with the power to control machines mentally. This includes TV's, most motor vehicles in the campaign setting, cell phones, computers, evil robots rampaging the city, traffic lights, etc. I believe I only need the Power Mind Control to do this. If I'm absolutely mistaken and completely on the wrong track, I would like to know. But it might take some convincing if this is impossible.[/quote']

 

Right here I'm also think VPP is the best bet. Maybe with a list of 7 powers to make it a bit cheaper.

 

Just thinking about some of your ideas I quoted above, what is the effect of controlling a motor, turning electronic appliances on or off, or controlling a traffic light? Most of these seem to me to come under the heading of CE with some sort of variable effect. Kinda like the Speedster power CE "Only to do mundane tasks that could be accomplished very quickly."

 

Turning all the TVs in a department store is roughly what a Speedster could accomplish with this power. Or he could run around releasing all the parking brakes on cars on a hill. Same idea, I think.

 

So, better add CE to the VPP!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Yeah. I feel dirty telling every wonderful gamer who responds with a perfectly valid approach that "no that's not what I want' date=' it comes close but I don't think I need to buy 7 powers to do this". [/quote']

Now you know how I feel.

 

What exactly are you asking for? A single power that can control *every* machine? Or just a power that can control TVs? Just electronics?

 

If the thing being controlled isn't a computer-like or robot-like thing, I like the idea of using some form of TK - perhaps with a totally new, non-canon mechanism for "Software/Electronic" TK, instead of Physical Object TK. It could be a Power stunt, with TK and Mechanics/Electronics.

 

So what does a zombie mind doing? Incline to do? Violently oppose? etc.

That could just be something the GM can define, based on what a zombie is in the campaign world.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

What I'm looking for, exactly, is something that will manipulate/control simple electronic devices, typically ones that are unshielded from emp tampering. The the character in mind (there is one, but it's a long way off from building), any "big" effects, such as controlling a robot, making someone's laser gun fire, and even completely controlling a full vehicle, I'm buying separate Powers for. All I'm looking for here is a guideline for looking at the TV and making it jump directly to channel 43, or setting/turning off the sleep timer without the display indicating the change. Maybe even forcing it to switch from ANT to CABLE or vice versa to piss off the guy watching it. These things can't be done with TK, at least not without some serious handwaving how the mechanic works. To me, TK is pushing buttons for moving the TV. That's not what I want.

 

Also, this is likely to be just a flavor power for the character, but one used often enough I feel it's worth paying points for. The character will already have Mind Control vs the machine class of minds, and a number of other elecrokinetic abilities. I kinda figured if Mind Control could control a Computer defined as an electronic device, why not any electronic device, even ones that don't have an INT Characteristic?

 

And I'm eventually gonna have a hoard of additional questions. Like if the character can Mind Control computers, and a potential target (human) is using a helmet with a targeting computer, can this character Mind Control the targeting computer to target a specific target only, and what mechanics could I use to simulate that and/or could I use the character's existing Powers to do that or something like it? I don't want this answered now, only after I have a full write-up for the character. I want to nail down what the character definitely needs and wants first. Little fun things like this I'll deal with later.

[Checkmate]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

There is no way to do that without handwaving since you don't like the IR xmit. The rules specifically say that you can't do it with Mind Control (no INT/EGO stat). If all you're talking about is TV's or things that have no value beyond RP elements, pick something and ask the GM to hand wave it. Peronsally I'd use TK since it can also be used to reprogram security systems, turn cameras where you want them ect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Look, I'm just thinking out loud, but how about a VPP summon that requires a physical manifestation or OIF (Object of opportunity)?

 

Let me try and explain: There is an object you wish to 'animate', be it a toaster, or a battlesuit. The toaster you could TK, probably - it only has a couple of buttons. You couldn't make it overload any burn/blow up though - if you wanted to do that.

 

However, if you summoned a totally loyal machine spirit with the powers you wanted (say the ability to make toast and to explode), using the toaster as a focus of opportunity, you'd be good. Add in some sort of mind link to it if you like.

 

Putting it in a VPP allows you to tailor the powers to whatever you are animating, and the object you animate determines base characteristics, like defence and how much strength the thing might have.

 

Limit so that you can only do stuff that is, you know, vaguely possible (the toaster can't walk about, but it could overheat) and you are good to go. The battlesuit could do pretty much anything that a battlesuit could do though - which might include walking about, flying and even talking if it has some sort of voice system. And fighting, obviously

 

Needs some work, but it might be what you are after.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

I just asked Steve this before even looking at the thread, because we can't figure out the breakout part.

 

Tragically, you do need to purchase multiple powers to do what you want. Making a mindless robot lean down and crush someone is a Mind Control task. Flicking a light switch off & on is a Transform. It's a minor transform, but it's still a Transform.

 

The PC in question is an Electrokinetic. He sees the flow of electricity and is capable of adjusting its position. He can't pick an electronic lock, but he can "see" the pattern the lock would need to open (on a Perception roll) and then Transform the lock from open to closed (putting the right power through the right circuits to crack it). Simple stuff. Works on cars with electric ignitions as well, although "advanced security" where the patterns are more complex could slow him down (it would have Extra BODY, or Power Defense) but ultimately there isn't much he can't do (although the power was purchase All or Nothing -- he either turns it on or he don't). Because Transforms are Stop Signs I almost always require All or Nothing in my campaigns. But that's not germane to the conversation.

 

Once we figured out the whole "on off" thing, the next stop was of course, Mind Control, machine class of minds, as it's laid out in Ultimate Mentalist. I think the only point I disagree with LL on is that a machine has an opinion. That's anthropomorphizing it, when in fact it's... just a machine. Your wrench has no opinion, nor does your cell phone. We ascribe opinions to it, and we could create a campaign where they really do have feelings, but for the most part, "meh." It's a machine. "It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it just runs programs."

 

The way I got around the break-out thing is that I made the Mind Control... Continuous/Constant? Something along those lines, then required the Constant Power to Cost END.

 

Here's the Transform:

 

Remote Electronic Activation: Minor Transform 6d6 (Locked/Unactive to Unlocked/Active, Changing Condition (Locked to Unlocked, etc.)) (60 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Requires An Electrokinesis Roll (-1/2), All Or Nothing (-1/2), Medium Range (25" Maximum; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

 

And the "mind control."

 

Cyberkinesis: Mind Control 8d6 (Machine class of minds) (40 Active Points); Requires An Electrokinesis Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Electrokinesis vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), OIF (-1/2), Does Not Operate in EM Shielded Environment Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (-1/4), Subject To Range Modifier (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

 

The Power v Skill contest is as such:

 

-- if the machine has any kind of defense skill (it's own on board security, whatever) it can attempt to resist. Further, in dramatic genre fiction, the "hero" can always wrest control of the vehicle back from the mentalist; that would be "Electrokinesis v Piloting" and any other versions as necessary.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Transform might work. It's clunky and completely lacks any kind of finesse for this ability. But if nothing else, Transform Electronic Device Doing X into Electronic Device Doing Y might work.

 

Oh, and for an example of what I'm looking to do, check out Jake 2.0 on the SciFi channel. His ability to "wirelessly" control any electronic device is pretty much what I want, with different devices or different commands having differing difficulty.

[gojira]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

What I'm looking for' date=' exactly, is something that will manipulate/control simple electronic devices, typically ones that are unshielded from emp tampering. The the character in mind (there is one, but it's a long way off from building), any "big" effects, such as controlling a robot, making someone's laser gun fire, and even completely controlling a full vehicle, I'm buying separate Powers for. All I'm looking for here is a guideline for looking at the TV and making it jump directly to channel 43, or setting/turning off the sleep timer without the display indicating the change. Maybe even forcing it to switch from ANT to CABLE or vice versa to piss off the guy watching it. These things can't be done with TK, at least not without some serious handwaving how the mechanic works. To me, TK is pushing buttons for moving the TV. That's not what I want.[/quote']

 

Just for this stuff right here, the "it's just for flavor" stuff:

 

1) Power Skill. For just doing "tricks" with your power, this is the main one I think. If I was GM, I'd let you control minor electrical appliances and the like with a Power Skill roll.

 

2) Change Environment. Basically the same idea as a speedster power. Same thing as "go find the remote really quick and do stuff with it."

 

3) 20 AP VPP. This is the big guns on messing with stuff. 20 Active Points keeps the effects small, but the VPP makes is so you can have any Power you need.

 

In summary, if you have the right SFX, a Power Skill covers it. GMs may limit it for dramatic story, but GMs can do that with any Power, really.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Controlling non-self aware machines/zombies

 

Just for this stuff right here, the "it's just for flavor" stuff:

 

1) Power Skill. For just doing "tricks" with your power, this is the main one I think. If I was GM, I'd let you control minor electrical appliances and the like with a Power Skill roll.

 

2) Change Environment. Basically the same idea as a speedster power. Same thing as "go find the remote really quick and do stuff with it."

 

3) 20 AP VPP. This is the big guns on messing with stuff. 20 Active Points keeps the effects small, but the VPP makes is so you can have any Power you need.

 

In summary, if you have the right SFX, a Power Skill covers it. GMs may limit it for dramatic story, but GMs can do that with any Power, really.

 

These seem to be the most elegant, simple and inexpensive solutions (and thanks to others who've already suggested them). I might skip the CE and VPP initially, but if the character has the points we'll definitely go with it.