buying weapons (money or points?)

[Edsel]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

He may be referring to page 153 of Dark Champions. It basically states the unique items should probably be paid for with character points instead of resource points.

 

I am joining this conversation late so I may be misunderstanding the course of the discussion.

[Spence]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

He may be referring to page 153 of Dark Champions. It basically states the unique items should probably be paid for with character points instead of resource points.

 

I am joining this conversation late so I may be misunderstanding the course of the discussion.

 

Yep, that is my take too. But this isn't really a problem for me. Take Thia's Paladin and Holy Avenger example. For me a Holy Avenger isn't something he will get easily or quickly. By the time he goes through the wringer er...quest and actually lays his hands on it he will have easily accumulated enough points. Of course I am the evil blasphemer that uses mystery XP. Over a period of time I siphon off about 1 point in 8 or so toward just this kind of thing. Not a lot at any given time, but occasionally telling them they got 2 instead of 3 points doesn't cause that big of a ripple and in the end they aren't scrambling to come up with points.

 

Just another approach from an evil control freak GM

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Yep' date=' that is my take too. But this isn't really a problem for me. Take Thia's Paladin and Holy Avenger example. For me a Holy Avenger isn't something he will get easily or quickly. By the time he goes through the wringer er...quest and actually lays his hands on it he will have easily accumulated enough points.[/quote']

 

This can also be in the player's control. Let's say the characer had located that holy Avenger, and very much wants it to be part of the Paladin's obgoing character. He could pay the points to add this Holy Avenger to the character, thus taking greater control over the future of the weapon. Since he has now paid the points, he can have confidence that the weapon cannot simply be lost, stolen or broken.

 

I'd allow a player to tell me he wanted to add such an item to his character by paying the points, and allow him to go into "xp debt". He would simply need to dedicate future xp to paying for the weapon. He was going to have the weapon in the meantime anyway, so it's not like this xp debt is allowing him to pay for abilities that otherwise would not have been available to him.

[Manic Typist]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Edsel- thanks.

 

Spence- interesting idea....

 

Yeah, basically, I put an independent limitation on all items until a character decides to buy the item with points. Then they have to buy it, with or without that limitation (I don't know why they would want to have Independent on there...)

[Spence]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

This can also be in the player's control. Let's say the characer had located that holy Avenger, and very much wants it to be part of the Paladin's obgoing character. He could pay the points to add this Holy Avenger to the character, thus taking greater control over the future of the weapon. Since he has now paid the points, he can have confidence that the weapon cannot simply be lost, stolen or broken.

 

I'd allow a player to tell me he wanted to add such an item to his character by paying the points, and allow him to go into "xp debt". He would simply need to dedicate future xp to paying for the weapon. He was going to have the weapon in the meantime anyway, so it's not like this xp debt is allowing him to pay for abilities that otherwise would not have been available to him.

 

Absolutely. I have used XP debt myself and it really works well. Depending on the players. I first used the whole "mystery xp" thing when some of the players in a old game really disliked XP Debt. At first I just kept a "XP bank" and then some of them didn't want to know how many points were in there. It kind of grew.

[casualplayer]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

While I have used XP debt also in the past (see my sig for how much I could give a flip about points,) there is no way I would let anyone chain me as a GM by buying special gear as part of their character and then monopolizing the game while the other players get dragged along on relic recovery whenever losses happen. Stuff that can be character-crafted, and thus easily replaced, is an exception to this.

 

Overvaluing stuff is a carry-over from D&D, where the character is just a method of transporting gear from place to place.

 

I was in a D&D game once where a Cavalier was disarmed while we were fighting trolls on a bridge. His +5 weapon went into the drink and, during the melee, he went after it. As a result of losing one of our best warriors mid-melee, two of the party were badly wounded and one was killed. When the Cavalier came wading ashore with his recovered blade, my character punched him in the jaw knocking him cold and threw his blade back in.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Yep, that is my take too. But this isn't really a problem for me. Take Thia's Paladin and Holy Avenger example. For me a Holy Avenger isn't something he will get easily or quickly. By the time he goes through the wringer er...quest and actually lays his hands on it he will have easily accumulated enough points. Of course I am the evil blasphemer that uses mystery XP. Over a period of time I siphon off about 1 point in 8 or so toward just this kind of thing. Not a lot at any given time, but occasionally telling them they got 2 instead of 3 points doesn't cause that big of a ripple and in the end they aren't scrambling to come up with points.

 

Just another approach from an evil control freak GM

 

But this is the core of what I'm saying, and CP had a great example of people caring TOO MUCH about their gear. I'm not saying go with the Golf Bag Full of Swords, I am saying that not everything counts in points.

 

I think this is a brilliant mechanically-supported example of what I was saying earlier. So you have your Paladin, we'll say his name is... gimme a minute. OH, I know. Lieutenant Thia Halmades. A Paladin of the Empire. We'll go so far as to say that during a routine operation one clue leads to another and Thia gets the idea in his head that he might be able to get his hands on a large enough quantity of Cold Iron to do this. He tells his best friend, and the hunt is on.

 

Not only does the poor bastard have to get the raw materials on his own, he must also find someone powerful enough, and righteous enough, and of the right Faith to enchant it. For example. In other words, he's literally forging the damn thing from scratch.

 

We're talking a true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking. Friends made, lives lost, and at least two climactic battles as some final obstacle (and villain) stands between Thia and his prize. An epic quest.

 

Finally, at the end, he's panting, bleeding, down to 2 BODY and 7 STUN, but he's done it. He has what he came for.

 

GM: Okay, so that'll be 17 XP.

Thia stabs the GM through the face with a pencil.

 

The XP has already been paid. You don't hand these things out to anyone. This isn't a "+2 weapon." This isn't even a +4 Dragon Slayer. It's a gal-farking HOLY AVENGER. Gah. Use mystery XP if you have to justify it, but you don't have to justify it. The work was done, the weapon was earned. And if some uppity thief says "HEY! I didn't get one!" Ask him simply:

 

Did you go through six months of hard RP, two levels of Hell, fight down a Greater Demon from the 7th Circle, thwart an assassination and sacrifice your one chance to reunite with your child hood sweetheart as a test of your devotion to get this blade, this one blade, this singular image of your own dedication to the Faith, the Temple, and the Empire?

 

IF YES, then by all means, you're entitled.

IF NO, then shut it.

[Spence]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

But this is the core of what I'm saying, and CP had a great example of people caring TOO MUCH about their gear. I'm not saying go with the Golf Bag Full of Swords, I am saying that not everything counts in points.

 

I think this is a brilliant mechanically-supported example of what I was saying earlier. So you have your Paladin, we'll say his name is... gimme a minute. OH, I know. Lieutenant Thia Halmades. A Paladin of the Empire. We'll go so far as to say that during a routine operation one clue leads to another and Thia gets the idea in his head that he might be able to get his hands on a large enough quantity of Cold Iron to do this. He tells his best friend, and the hunt is on.

 

Not only does the poor bastard have to get the raw materials on his own, he must also find someone powerful enough, and righteous enough, and of the right Faith to enchant it. For example. In other words, he's literally forging the damn thing from scratch.

 

We're talking a true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking. Friends made, lives lost, and at least two climactic battles as some final obstacle (and villain) stands between Thia and his prize. An epic quest.

 

Finally, at the end, he's panting, bleeding, down to 2 BODY and 7 STUN, but he's done it. He has what he came for.

 

GM: Okay, so that'll be 17 XP.

Thia stabs the GM through the face with a pencil.

 

The XP has already been paid. You don't hand these things out to anyone. This isn't a "+2 weapon." This isn't even a +4 Dragon Slayer. It's a gal-farking HOLY AVENGER. Gah. Use mystery XP if you have to justify it, but you don't have to justify it. The work was done, the weapon was earned. And if some uppity thief says "HEY! I didn't get one!" Ask him simply:

 

Did you go through six months of hard RP, two levels of Hell, fight down a Greater Demon from the 7th Circle, thwart an assassination and sacrifice your one chance to reunite with your child hood sweetheart as a test of your devotion to get this blade, this one blade, this singular image of your own dedication to the Faith, the Temple, and the Empire?

 

IF YES, then by all means, you're entitled.

IF NO, then shut it.

 

Well I will admit to fudging the number of points available, especially if the PC's did a humdinger of a job roleplaying. What they don't know and all

[archermoo]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

But this is the core of what I'm saying, and CP had a great example of people caring TOO MUCH about their gear. I'm not saying go with the Golf Bag Full of Swords, I am saying that not everything counts in points.

 

I think this is a brilliant mechanically-supported example of what I was saying earlier. So you have your Paladin, we'll say his name is... gimme a minute. OH, I know. Lieutenant Thia Halmades. A Paladin of the Empire. We'll go so far as to say that during a routine operation one clue leads to another and Thia gets the idea in his head that he might be able to get his hands on a large enough quantity of Cold Iron to do this. He tells his best friend, and the hunt is on.

 

Not only does the poor bastard have to get the raw materials on his own, he must also find someone powerful enough, and righteous enough, and of the right Faith to enchant it. For example. In other words, he's literally forging the damn thing from scratch.

 

We're talking a true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking. Friends made, lives lost, and at least two climactic battles as some final obstacle (and villain) stands between Thia and his prize. An epic quest.

 

Finally, at the end, he's panting, bleeding, down to 2 BODY and 7 STUN, but he's done it. He has what he came for.

 

GM: Okay, so that'll be 17 XP.

Thia stabs the GM through the face with a pencil.

 

The XP has already been paid. You don't hand these things out to anyone. This isn't a "+2 weapon." This isn't even a +4 Dragon Slayer. It's a gal-farking HOLY AVENGER. Gah. Use mystery XP if you have to justify it, but you don't have to justify it. The work was done, the weapon was earned. And if some uppity thief says "HEY! I didn't get one!" Ask him simply:

 

Did you go through six months of hard RP, two levels of Hell, fight down a Greater Demon from the 7th Circle, thwart an assassination and sacrifice your one chance to reunite with your child hood sweetheart as a test of your devotion to get this blade, this one blade, this singular image of your own dedication to the Faith, the Temple, and the Empire?

 

IF YES, then by all means, you're entitled.

IF NO, then shut it.

 

My question at this point would be this: Was this a solo adventure, or did your team go along? If the second, then yes, the thief DID go through all of that. If it was a solo adventure, you look at the NPC thief and thumb your nose at him.

 

Just a thought...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Thia is an NPC, so this is just a ground down chunk of his history. However, let's assume he went with an entire team; it's not how HIS history went, but it's certainly likely that it's how a group would go. Okay.

 

It's traditionally handled in one of two ways. The first is of course, everyone metagames and the Paladin "gets nothing" because he's "getting his stupid sword." This hacks me off but is certainly done on a regular basis. Then, all of the rest of the gear goes to the group, and the Paladin "only" gets his Holy Avenger, and then only when the entire quest is complete.

 

The second, and more logical, is with GM assistance, and then with the understanding "Yes, you cats are going with Thia to do this, although it's Thia's quest. There will be other adventures and subplots on the way so everyone gets their time to shine and will come away with phat lewtz, but part of the point here is suspension of disbelief. It's an extended quest to get the brass ring of brass rings for Paladins. All other party members will be appropriately rewarded."

 

That doesn't always mean literally. The thief might pick up a 10 point contact and a halfway decent set of sneaking boots. The Ranger doesn't need "a new bow which strike as true as your heart" or some other overdone crap. He may need access to a Druid Coven, a suit of armor or a pair of magic rings.

 

I agree that it is on the head of the GM to make sure everyone is having fun and properly compensated, but in a proper group (and to be fair, any group that would go with a Paladin in the first place), generally everyone understands what they're going after.

 

And that the Paladin would owe them HUGE.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

But this is the core of what I'm saying, and CP had a great example of people caring TOO MUCH about their gear.

 

I think this is a brilliant mechanically-supported example of what I was saying earlier. So you have your Paladin, we'll say his name is... gimme a minute. OH, I know. Lieutenant Thia Halmades. A Paladin of the Empire. We'll go so far as to say that during a routine operation one clue leads to another and Thia gets the idea in his head that he might be able to get his hands on a large enough quantity of Cold Iron to do this. He tells his best friend, and the hunt is on.

 

Not only does the poor bastard have to get the raw materials on his own, he must also find someone powerful enough, and righteous enough, and of the right Faith to enchant it. For example. In other words, he's literally forging the damn thing from scratch.

 

We're talking a true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking. Friends made, lives lost, and at least two climactic battles as some final obstacle (and villain) stands between Thia and his prize. An epic quest.

 

Finally, at the end, he's panting, bleeding, down to 2 BODY and 7 STUN, but he's done it. He has what he came for.

 

GM: Okay, so that'll be 17 XP.

Thia stabs the GM through the face with a pencil.

 

The XP has already been paid.

 

To take the alternative position and open up the discussion:

 

Presumably, all the characters received xp for the "true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking, friends made, lives lost, climactic battles - the epic quest." So far, all of the characters are equal. They all went through hell, they all got xp and they all got to spend it on new abilities.

 

Assuming that the Paladin got to spend his xp on whatever he wanted, just like everyone else, the xp has NOT been spent on his new magic sword.

 

You don't hand these things out to anyone. This isn't a "+2 weapon." This isn't even a +4 Dragon Slayer. It's a gal-farking HOLY AVENGER. Gah. Use mystery XP if you have to justify it' date=' [/i']but you don't have to justify it. The work was done, the weapon was earned.

 

Youo're right, not just everyone gets a Holy Avenger. Not just anyone wiggles their fingers, mutters a few arcane words and causes the laws of nature to bend at his whim. The Wizard does - and he paid spells for his magic skills and his magic spells. Not just anyone possesses the skills to scale the walls of the Tower of Doom, survive working his way down through its various traps and pitfalls and escape with the Crown Jewels of the Ancient Empire. But the Rogue does - and he paid points for all those skills. Not just anyone can channel the Power of the Gods to heal wounds, or even return a fallen comrade from the Land of the Dead. The Cleric can - and he paid points for those abilities.

 

The common thread here is that people pay points for being granted abilities that not just anyone can possess.

 

And if some uppity thief says "HEY! I didn't get one!" Ask him simply:

 

Did you go through six months of hard RP, two levels of Hell, fight down a Greater Demon from the 7th Circle, thwart an assassination and sacrifice your one chance to reunite with your child hood sweetheart as a test of your devotion to get this blade, this one blade, this singular image of your own dedication to the Faith, the Temple, and the Empire?

 

Possible Answer #1: I also played through the quest, so I also went through the same RP, the same two levels of Hell, and the same battles. And, like the Paladin, I got xp for them, which we have both spent. He's now getting the sword, which makes him the powerhouse in our new campaign, "Thia Halmades and his Amazing Sidekick Friends".

 

Possible Answer #2: I also played through the same game, but it's true that I didn't get the playing joy of having MY CHARACTER be the guy in the spotlight for the last SIX MONTHS. Why should the player whose character has enjoyed six months of Spotlight Time also get added power, for free, to make him better able to hold the spotlight in the future? You didn't tell me this campaign was going to be "Thia Halmades and his Amazing Sidekick Friends".

 

IF YES, then by all means, you're entitled.

IF NO, then shut it.

 

Possible answers:

 

(a) Thief player is satisfied: "Ok - the game is still good."

 

( Thief player is not satisfied: "The Thief is going travelling. Don't bother emailing me with the time of future games. Anyone else want to start a campaign where we all get to share in the glory and the spotlight?"

 

Thia is an NPC' date=' so this is just a ground down chunk of his history. However, let's assume he went with an entire team; it's not how HIS history went, but it's certainly likely that it's how a group would go. Okay.[/quote']

 

Okay. Let's assume that a Player shows up with his new character, fully using the points you gave him to build that new character. You gave him enough xp to be competetive with the other players, since he's joining an ongoing campaign. In his background is an extensive work of fantasy fiction outlining the major quest his character undertook to recover a Holy Relic of vast power. The story seems incomplete, so you ask:

 

"So what happened to the Relic?"

 

The player says "Well, that's his history to yesterday. he owns it. Here's its writeup."

 

You: "That would cost about 25 points, assuming its Independent. You don't have the points to pay for this."

 

Player: "No, but just like your NPC, my character went through a huge epic offstage quest to earn it. So, just like your NPC, he should get it for free."

 

Now, if that's a typical NPC, who cares? He won't be the focus of the game, so he won't detract spotlight time from the real heroes, the PC's. Besides, if he actually needed extra points, **POOF** he has them.

 

But if he's really the GM's player character, and will take spotlight time away from the players he's supposedly an equal with, giving him free points the other PC's can't match would seem to be an issue of some significance.

 

It's traditionally handled in one of two ways. The first is of course' date=' everyone metagames and the Paladin "gets nothing" because he's "getting his stupid sword." This hacks me off but is certainly done on a regular basis. Then, all of the rest of the gear goes to the group, and the Paladin "only" gets his Holy Avenger, and then only when the entire quest is complete.[/quote']

 

And the Paladin, ultimately, is equivalent in power and ability to all the other player characters. This doesn't seem wholly unfair to me, somehow.

 

The second' date=' and more logical, is with GM assistance, and then with the understanding "Yes, you cats are going with Thia to do this, although it's Thia's quest. There will be other adventures and subplots on the way so everyone gets their time to shine and will come away with phat lewtz, but part of the point here is suspension of disbelief. It's an extended quest to get the brass ring of brass rings for Paladins. All other party members will be appropriately rewarded."[/quote']

 

And if the other PC's also get their share of abilities (whether gear, contacts, favours or what have you) that equalizes the characters, there is, again, no problem. But if the Paladin gets his Holy Sword and the party thief gets told "Hey, he earned it - what have YOU done lately", I see that as a problem.

 

That doesn't always mean literally. The thief might pick up a 10 point contact and a halfway decent set of sneaking boots. The Ranger doesn't need "a new bow which strike as true as your heart" or some other overdone crap. He may need access to a Druid Coven' date=' a suit of armor or a pair of magic rings.[/quote']

 

So long as these are more or less equivalent to the Paladin's Artifact, again I see no problem. Give all the PC's the tools to maintain their share of the spotlight and we have balance.

 

I agree that it is on the head of the GM to make sure everyone is having fun and properly compensated' date=' but in a proper group (and to be fair, any group that would go with a Paladin in the first place), generally everyone understands what they're going after.[/quote']

 

Good role playing says the Paladin's loyal friends will go along and assist him. Good gaming says that the result will not be one PC who overpowers and overshadows the rest. Whether that balance comes by making everyone pay points for their loot (which forces the players to contribute to maintaining the balance) or by ensuring that all players get more or less equivalent abilities at no point cost (which puts the onus fully on the GM), the end result should be the same.

 

Funny....it seems to me that "I adventure for loot" is very much a D&Dism, whether that's descending underground to search for gold and jewels, or a Paladin questing for a Holy Avenger sword so "I can be more powerful" instead of traveling the land with the gear his Gods chose to give him to "Assist and defend the weak and powerless".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

While I have used XP debt also in the past (see my sig for how much I could give a flip about points' date=') there is no way I would let anyone chain me as a GM by buying special gear as part of their character and then monopolizing the game while the other players get dragged along on relic recovery whenever losses happen. Stuff that can be character-crafted, and thus easily replaced, is an exception to this.[/quote']

 

That "special gear" should be subject to the same GM oversight as a "special skill", "special combat ability" or "special spell". That's the case whether the player pays points for it, or the GM puts it in as "special loot" the characters discover in their adventuring and pay no points for.

[casualplayer]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

That "special gear" should be subject to the same GM oversight as a "special skill"' date=' "special combat ability" or "special spell". That's the case whether the player pays points for it, or the GM puts it in as "special loot" the characters discover in their adventuring and pay no points for.[/quote']

 

Gear is not the same. All the other abilities you mentioned are intrinsic to the character, requiring a GM to maim or mind-rape a character to remove them. Gear is actually safer for a GM to allow because, if you blow it and let something unbalancing into your game, the Gray Mouser can always stumble along and divest the character of his broken weapon.

 

Say your paladin does manage to acquire a Holy Avenger (the example goodie of choice.) What happens if he encounters a higher ranking member of his order who demands the blade? What if you confront him with someone more worthy? What if, like in my anecdote, recovering the blade means endangering comrades? Role-playing glory ensues, with the paladin hopefully being up to the challenge.

 

Possessions own us (how very NGD!) There's no reason to perpetuate that in our fantasy lives.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Gear is not the same. All the other abilities you mentioned are intrinsic to the character' date=' requiring a GM to maim or mind-rape a character to remove them. Gear is actually safer for a GM to allow because, if you blow it and let something unbalancing into your game, the Gray Mouser can always stumble along and divest the character of his broken weapon.[/quote']

 

Assuming it's not gear paid for in character points. My comments were directed at "paid for" gear. Sorry that was unclear.

 

Say your paladin does manage to acquire a Holy Avenger (the example goodie of choice.) What happens if he encounters a higher ranking member of his order who demands the blade? What if you confront him with someone more worthy? What if' date=' like in my anecdote, recovering the blade means endangering comrades? Role-playing glory ensues, with the paladin hopefully being up to the challenge.[/quote']

 

Or the player says (apologies to Thia in advance ):

 

"GIVE IT AWAY?

 

edited Not only did the poor bastard have to get the raw materials on his own, he also had to find someone powerful enough, and righteous enough, and of the right Faith to enchant it. For example. In other words, he literally forged the damn thing from scratch.

 

We're talking a true wringer, months of adventure, RP, fetch questing and dungeon hacking. Friends made, lives lost, and at least two climactic battles as some final obstacle (and villain) stood between Thia and his prize. An epic quest.

 

Finally, at the end, he's panting, bleeding, down to 2 BODY and 7 STUN, but he's done it. He has what he came for.

 

And you want him to GIVE IT AWAY???

 

edited Did HE go through six months of hard RP' date=' two levels of Hell, fight down a Greater Demon from the 7th Circle, thwart an assassination and sacrifice his one chance to reunite with his child hood sweetheart as a test of his devotion to get this blade, this one blade, this singular image of dedication to the Faith, the Temple, and the Empire?[/quote']

 

GIVE IT AWAY???

 

Thia stabs the GM through the face with a pencil.

or smacks him with an ice cream cone, anyway...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

That Ice Cream Cone has come in handy more times than I can count.

 

Okay, as usual, Hugh, you have some excellent points, most of which I considered, but I accept as the apriori premise you're playing Devil's Advocate. I'm down, I'm with that.

 

In a HERO campaign, "giving it away" can just be another GM inspired mechanic of "taking away what was not paid for," which is the same BS I'm railing on to begin with. In a d20 campaign, as I was saying before, the whole party goes on the quest, and the whole party shares in the glory; whether that balance comes form equivalent points, from "GM favors" for whatever item in the future, or just a great RP subplot, that's the point.

 

Thia, for the record, is a pure NPC; he was seen on a battlefield exactly once. He runs his school and commands his unit from secrecy; he's about 50 years old (although he doesn't look much past his early forties). The Holy Avenger in question stays sheathed 99.9% of the time, so this is a great example, since in his history as I wrote it, it was him and his best friend & second in command who handle this quest. Some of it I added in as I thought of it and fleshed it out, but it raises excellent questions.

 

Is a Holy Avenger an Artifact? To any normal person (Side Effect) it's a +2 OCV weapon. Finely made, well crafted, blade kind of dull looking. For a Paladin, it is a bullsh-- machine. In the original d20 write up, it's... +5 OCV, +4 DCs (for a full +2 Damage Class boost), constantly emits a Circle of Protection, and heaven only remembers what else. Probably Smites Evil by itself. It is monstrously expensive.

 

But in d20 parlance, the Fighter with his twin Dragon Slayers is going to be just as effective; this goes double for HERO, where anyone can make anything. Fighters are no longer restricted to Feats. By that reasoning, a Paladin is no longer forced to find one of these damn blades.

 

But if the GAME is the thing, if the adventure itself is what drives everyone, and equal rewards are handed out throughout the campaign (and hey, it's not the first time one player got the spotlight for a while) then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

Poorly handled, though, and yeah. The whole thing falls apart.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

In a HERO campaign' date=' "giving it away" can just be another GM inspired mechanic of "taking away what was not paid for," [/quote']

 

This is a major point, IMO. If a player wants the benefits for free, I don't expect them to whine at the fact it can be taken away just as freely.

 

But if the GAME is the thing, if the adventure itself is what drives everyone, and equal rewards are handed out throughout the campaign (and hey, it's not the first time one player got the spotlight for a while) then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

Poorly handled, though, and yeah. The whole thing falls apart.

 

That's where the issue lies. If the Quest for the Holy Sword takes a real-life year to play out, during which time everyone gets their normal xp, and, and the end of that year, the Paladin gets his shiny new Sword, worth (say) 30 character points, and no one else gets anything, the Paladin is now ahead of everyone else. How much ahead depends on total points, but if we assume the characters are now 200 points including xp, the Paladin is a 230 point character, 15% more points than the rest of his colleagues. Leave matters at that state, and I can see where the Thief's player has every right to complain.

 

The same issue easily arises in D&D. Characters whose equipment doesn't come up to the expectations of that level won't be effective against challenges normally viewed as appropriate for that level. Try running a 10th level party that gets only standard L1 starting gold to equip themselves through a 10th level scenario!

 

An experienced GM can balance it all out intuitively, or nearly so. A less experienced GM may want to stat out all that "free" gear to assess whether the characters really are on a level footing (ie maybe the thief needs a freebie or two appropriate to his character to bring him back up to par).

 

One way of making the balance maintain itself is making the PC's pay for that magical gear. It comes with all sorts of problems of its own (like "why would they just leave it behind? because no one has enough xp to take it", or characters running down their existing equipment list looking at what they can leave behind to make up the xp shortfall), but it is a means of maintaining the balance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

No sign of maidenforce19 since the first post. I hope we didn't scare him/her away.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

I agree, I hope we haven't scared him away.

 

It was just this entire issue that derailed production of Narosia. The playtest campaign was at 270 points (having started at 75). It has been going on for a while.

 

In Narosia we came up with a pretty comprehensive system for how much magic items should cost in coin. Being a heroic game, you buy stuff with money. Find treasure, keep it or sell it. Have money, buy an item (if available of course), or commission one. For characters in the game since the beginning, that worked fine.

 

Enter new players at about 150 pts.

 

Now, where do we start? How much money do they have? How much equipment should they have? Now, we had answered those questions long ago and it was working okay.

 

Enter new players at about 230 pts. Now it's not looking so good. Big ticket items, priced accordingly, are now simply available because of PC backstory. Items some people have been trying to comission/find for a while. Hmmm, that's not cool. No reasonable way really to deny the new player the item, it is a cool backstory, so now what?

 

Enter a new player that isn't item dependent. Boom. System destroyed. What you really had in that situation is a group of characters basically not paying for about 80-120 pts of ability and calling it magic items. The guy who wants to play a naturally capable ascetic monk is out by a significant amount of ability for a character that story-wise should be on par with the other characters.

 

Solution

Everyone pays points for magic items. All items are bought Independent with the exception of items that are part of the core character concept (e.g. a wizards staff as a focus for spells). The GM has to make some calls in this area, but in general all items are Independent.

 

What happens when an item gets lost/stolen/destroyed? How about instead of the character losing the points in the item, those points remain frozen and usable only for other items.

 

What about coin? Can't you just go to market and buy a +1 sword? Yes you can, and that sword will be Independent and you will have to pay points for it. The money is just an extension of Independent.

 

Mundane equipment, which is set, controlled, and defined costs only money.

 

In all of the examples above this solution reconciled everything with one exception. The ascetic monk was now the same point level as everyone else, everyone payed points for their items, and some amount of balance is maintained. Unfortunately you still have the situation where someone can bring in a new character with exactly the items they want, but given a setting where items can be commissioned this isn't that big a deal now that players have to pay points for items anyway.

 

In the monk situation a munchkin might note that the monk is still less cost effective since everyone else is buying items with at least Independent on the powers. My response to that is Independent can be significantly limiting. If an item is lost or destroyed you can't necessarily go back to town and buy a new one, commission one sure, but off the shelf no (unless minor in power). This means that an item using character may end up with 20 points tied to an item that was destroyed and until he finds other items to spend those points on they are wasted.

 

Now when items are found they still have value, but if nobody wants it it is sold for coin and either used to buy the item someone wants or used in other ways.

 

This changes the kill/loot paradigm a little, but for the better as I see it. If the GM introduces an item that a player wants but doesn't have the points for my rule is he can't use it until he has half the points and then the remaining half comes from all his future XP until paid off. That means no other character development.

 

Character points help keep the items in campaign limits and balance the characters across the board.

 

Money helps drive the rarity value of items in the real context of the setting.

 

Mundane items costing only Money supports the reality of the setting so that normal people can survive without points.

 

This does, essentially, make the game a superheroic game which, honestly, is pretty appropriate considering that at upper levels of gameplay the heroes are battling 1000 point monsters (dragons, demons, etc.) and not accounting for magic items in terms of points makes judging such challenges even more difficult.

 

So, while I started in the "only money" camp and have been their for years, running a 400pt Fantasy Hero game has changed my mind. I remember when these characters were scrambling for a few coin, running from wild boars, and worrying about their next meal. Now they are "reorganizing" entire cities, pissing off gods, and battling qliphotic hordes. That perspective and experience has driven me to these conclusions and I welcome questions or suggestions?

 

Thank you.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

I forgot to add, the more powerful the item the more money it will cost, the rarer it will be. Powerful items are generally owned by nobility and governments, and such items are not generally open for sale. They can be commissioned, assuming a powerful enough enchanter is available.

 

Speaking the the quest for cold iron to forge the Holy Avenger. That is how you would get such an item. Holy Avengers and other rare, signature items, could only be crafted if the materials were brought to a capable enchanter.

Everyone gets the same XP and the paladin gets the item... and has to pay points for it.

 

My rule of thumb is a 5 active point item (or less) has an availability of 14-. Every 5 active points is a -1 to the availability. Low cost powers (movement, senses, etc.) generally I double the active points of the item to determine the penalty. So, a 30 point item would be available on an 9-.

 

This is just a baseline. Obviously there has to be a viable source of such an item, an economy to support such a source, and so on. This assumes a large city. -1 to -2 for a smaller city, -3 (market town) to -5 for a (frontier town), and -6 (market village) to -9 or more for a smaller village. That can become a quest in itself, just to find the item.

 

Notice, this gets you to about 60 active points on a 3-. Items of greater power have to be either found or commissioned or bought from a private source, all of which are adventure seeds.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Holy Avenger: (Total: 125 Active Cost, 23 Real Cost) Killing Attack HtH 2 1/2d6 (Cold Iron, Holy Weapon), Side Effects (Side Effect does a predefined amount of damage; Weapon is simply a +2 OCV Cold Iron Sword for any non-Paladin; +0) (55 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), STR Minimum 14 (-1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2) (Real Cost: 10) plus +8 with HTH Combat, Side Effects (Side Effect does a predefined amount of damage; Does Not Function for non-Paladins; +0) (40 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Set Effect (+4 OCV, +2 DC; -1/2), Linked (Faith's Cutting Edge; -1/2) (Real Cost: 7) plus Power Defense (10 points), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), x2 Radius (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 16 people at once; +1 1/4) (30 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Only When Serving The God's Purposes (-1/2), Linked (Faith's Cutting Edge; -1/2) (Real Cost: 6)

 

For the record, this version does not include the Greater Dispel Magic. That's another 90+ Active by itself.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Perfect. That's a 23 real point item that due to its power cannot be bought anywhere. You would have to quest for it and then have it made, like in your story. But giving one player 215 active points of power while giving the other players nothing just isn't balanced.

 

I would also rule that if this item is truly a Holy Avenger that it is a Signature Item, personal to the Paladin, and therefor cannot be Independent. That would up the point cost to about 44 pts which is even more appropriate.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

I was just going with Hugh's original assumption -- were I to assign it to ("myself") Thia, then I would remove the Indy limitation, however, it's still an OAF (unlike my HICCOS, which is an OIF). The Holy Avenger can be lost, stolen, etc. However, since it's not Indy, it is assumed, by rule, that it will eventually get recovered (as you say, and I use the same lingo, "signature item.")

 

In my Sci-Fi campaign, Duke has a HAC Cannon, which is a GenGiant's Railgun. Used to eliminate hardened positions, mobile armor and mecha. It does... I think 3d6 1/2 right now? Not quite a rocket launcher but it wasn't entirely meant to be. I may have it at 5d6, I don't recall.

 

Point being, he didn't pay points for it. It's a limited use, hardly ever reloadable weapon; the rules aren't the same for all elements of every campaign. Almost everyone carries guns -- no one pays for them. Everyone also has Psionics, but everyone pays individually for them. So it's a matter of system adjustment as much as anything else.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

I agree. The deciding factor for me is whether or not the items are fixed in nature or not.

 

In a modern game the types of guns available are either:

a) finite

a plot device

 

Either way, everyone has equal access to the same gear and something as ephemeral as money is an adequate control mechanism.

 

Also, point scale is an issue. If your campaign hovers between 100 and 250 points, equipment is not that big a deal, especially when most of it is at a campaign controlled 30-45 active points.

 

Magic items, as demonstrated by your item, don't follow that pattern. While the rest of the world is presented with STR 18 min 2d6K greatsword, you have a STR 14 min 2 1/2d6K greatsword with other goodies not normally available. If anyone could go out and grab a Holy Avenger, even if you matched the rarity to that of a modern M60 machine gun, it would be okay. But within the context of the story you can't - that item must be unique and have power above and beyond those commonly available.

 

Now a GM could balance all of these things within the campaign and ensure that everyone (the players), somehow, has an equivalently power ed item. Alternatively he could just rely on the point system to do what it does, which seems much simpler and less arbitrary to me at least.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

I'll give you that. I'm beginning (as I get deeper into the system, 1+ year later and I'm still learning) to see the "simplicity" of charging for everything, however, I still don't agree with it entirely.

 

However, I'm currently in the "signature items must be bought" camp. That would include Relic Blades, Power Armor, mutant super powers -- those things which Normal Folk can't get their hands on.

 

Anyone can buy a pistol. Not anyone can buy a fully automatic M60. Or a Rail Gun. Or SAPHEX, APDS, or APFMJ ammunition. Mm. Gadget pool...

[archermoo]

Re: buying weapons (money or points?)

 

Thia (or anyone else for that matter), if it helps, I don't look at points as "currency" that gets used to "pay" for things. Points are a rough description of the power level of the character, and of the specific things that they are allocated to. If a character wants to use the Uber-Flashy Artifact-Of-Doom, they need to allocate points to it to reflect that capability. Things that everyone has access to don't need to have points allocated to them, anymore than you need to allocate points for your first 10 points of strength. But things past that do.

 

I've also never liked the Independant limitation. It lets a character effectively have more points available to them than the other characters that didn't buy anything with Independant for a period of time. With the tradeoff that they will eventually have fewer points available to them when the Independant power is no longer available to them.