Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

[Reality Czech]

Hey guys, another wacky power set I'd like some feedback on... I had an idea for a guy who could convert kinetic energy into thermal energy and vice versa. I'm also looking at the ability to transfer kinetic or thermal from one object to another directly.

 

A couple examples of powers I can see with this... TK throws and grabs, KB resist, thermal EB's, change environment, missile deflection/reflection, and my personal favorite, an NND RKA (does body) caused by removing most or all thermal energy from an opponent's body and transferring it elsewhere.

 

The reason this guy seems so potentially complicated to me is he's not actually creating any energy, he's just redirecting it. A lot of times this'll just be a SFX issue, but what if he wants to stop a car that's about to run him down by removing its kinetic energy and use the resulting energy to fry the driver? just call it a MPA and be done with it?

 

For his host of potential EB/TK/RKA attacks I was thinking about having it tied to a drain (vs. kinetic or thermal energy), but that might end up becoming either complicated, limiting, or both... I'm sort of thinking a VPP with prewritten "common" uses might be the simplest way to do this, but my rules-fu is not as strong as some of you, so I thought I'd ask for input.

 

One thing I like about this concept is you can power stunt the *%^(* out of it (which to me is always fun). Thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

 

Transfer is one. (from Running to Energy Blast)

 

Drains, with Limitations on normal powers. (Can Only Use XD6 where X = Amount drained)

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

I'm not so sure Transfer works; the general effects Reality Czech seems to want are:

• Stop someone from running/flying/whatever, and burn them with their converted kinetic energy
  
• Stop something from flying and instead hurl it far away by converting the thermal energy to kinetic energy

I would think that Dispel is the power you're after, since it doesn't look like you're permanently robbing the target of the energy - merely doing so for an instant. The first effect is Dispel any kinetic based movement power (+1/4) with a linked Energy Blast (or RKA); the second is Dispel any thermal energy based effect (+1/4) with linked Telekinesis.

 

That would be my first stab at the main sorts of effects.

 

From the sounds of it this sort of character will often be using Held Actions to interrupt another character; Lightning Reflexes (possibly with a limitation) will help that work out.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

 

From the sounds of it this sort of character will often be using Held Actions to interrupt another character; Lightning Reflexes (possibly with a limitation) will help that work out.

 

I was just in the smoking area and I relized that this guy would definitely spend a lot of combat waiting for opportunities to act, I was even thinking about extra SPD (only to use powers, no movement powers) which might be a -1/4... all I can think of that he's really losing is movement. Basically I think if all he has to do is wait and think of reactions, he could be pretty quick if he's a good problem solver under hostile fire.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

 

Transfer is one. (from Running to Energy Blast)

 

Drains, with Limitations on normal powers. (Can Only Use XD6 where X = Amount drained)

 

Transfer was my intial thought as well but if your target had 15" running, is running at 15"/phase and you drain 5" running - does that affect his immediate velocity? (I would say yes) What if he was running at 10"/phase? (I would say no).

 

So the question is, how do you slow someone down? Negative running? TK?

 

What about flying? Same effect?

 

I think my build would focus round a VPP that allowed the countering of powers only, some END that only recovered when using the VPP and an EB...

 

Doc

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

The real problem I see with this concept (in modelling it realistically and fairly) is that the character could often make use of ambient energy (passing car, nearby fire, falling piano) to "power" his abilities, but he would also have the option of using a drain/transfer against opponents if that better suited his needs. So it seems like there would almost have to be two sepaate builds for a lot of his abilities, since using ambient energy is going to be relegated to SFX a lot of the time (and rightly so).

 

Side note: how would you write the "Drain thermal energy from opponent" attack? I'm thinking NND RKA (does body), but I'm open to suggestions.

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Personally I like Drain BODY more than RKA NND Does BODY. I'm not saying the latter construct is never appropriate, but I do tend to think it's overused. To each his/her own.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

From your description, it sounds like the transformation of energy is instantaneous so that Energy Transducer man essentially gets two game effects for each action he performs. This would require lots of Triggers or linking with some if not all of his powers. Depending on how flexible you wanted to make him, that could get really pricey.

 

You might consider that he has to take a moment to convert the energy or store it. That would allow you to do a Dispel or Transfer or what have you on one PHA, and then release it as a separate attack on another. You could give him an END Reserve to represent his stored energy, and only give it REC when he siphons the energy off of something else. This approach might make him more manageable from a character building standpoint, and less potentially abusive in combat. This approach might also take the soul out of the character you envisioned, so take it for what it is worth.

 

_________________________________________________________

"Dancing screaming itching squealing fevered-feeling hot hot hot!!!" - The Cure

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Your point on potential abusiveness is well taken; that's what I'm mostly trying to avoid along with getting some feedback on build ideas... I'm less concerned with cost as this is just a (admittedly elaborate) flight of fancy.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Sounds to me like what you want is Absorption (with some linked defense, of course). Go ahead and let the car hit you; Absorb the kinetic energy, converting it to your EB (or END for your EB's END Reserve, or something like that); and blast away!

 

You'll have to buy it twice:

 

Absorption (Physical) - to EB (Energy), and

Absorption (Energy) - to EB (Physical) or TK.

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Sounds to me like what you want is Absorption (with some linked defense, of course). Go ahead and let the car hit you; Absorb the kinetic energy, converting it to your EB (or END for your EB's END Reserve, or something like that); and blast away!

 

You'll have to buy it twice:

 

Absorption (Physical) - to EB (Energy), and

Absorption (Energy) - to EB (Physical) or TK.

The reason I don't think this (or the similar Transfer or Drain ideas) works is that I think only an instantaneous change is desired.

 

Transferring Running to an Energy Blast would mean that the car (eg) couldn't move next phase either, and that the EB would be good for several blasts (ie until the fade rate expires).

 

Absorption wouldn't necessarily stop the car (though if you have enough Knockback Resistance it would), would quite possibly damage the car (which isn't what I think is desired - it should just come to a dead stop, like The Reflector/Snotman in Wild Cards), and again would power up the EB for several phases afterwards.

 

Possibly you could apply some sort of limitation for "fades immediately" or something, but I think that Dispel + Linked EB is cleaner. YMMV.

 

On one thing I think we all agree - this is a cool power idea!

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

The reason I don't think this (or the similar Transfer or Drain ideas) works is that I think only an instantaneous change is desired.

Yup. it's a lot more complicated this way, but this is my second "Magneto" idea, the first being the dimensional distortion concept that’s mentioned here and here. I'm trying to model another simple power concept with wide-ranging applicability.

 

Transferring Running to an Energy Blast would mean that the car (eg) couldn't move next phase either' date=' and that the EB would be good for several blasts (ie until the fade rate expires).[/quote']

 

Yeah, stopping or slowing the car is key, because part of the idea of this guy is he could be trying for two effects at the same time, but a lot of time he's only going to be concerned with half of the total outcome. (It's great that I could use TK to fire a quarter at a_random_thug_01 over there with the resulting energy, but mainly I'm just happy I didn't get pasted by that car.)

 

Absorption wouldn't necessarily stop the car (though if you have enough Knockback Resistance it would)' date=' would quite possibly damage the car (which isn't what I think is desired - it should just come to a dead stop, like The Reflector/Snotman in Wild Cards), and again would power up the EB for several phases afterwards.[/quote']

 

One minor note on this build concept; if the presence of an END reserve wound up being the simplest way to model this guy's powers from a mechanical standpoint I'd do it, but part of the core concept is that this guy dosen't absorb or store energy, he just converts and/or redirects it, so anything he dosen't use from stopping the car just dissipates.

 

Possibly you could apply some sort of limitation for "fades immediately" or something' date=' but I think that Dispel + Linked EB is cleaner. YMMV.[/quote']

 

Yeah, "fades immediately" was what I was thinking if this guy wound up needing an END reserve, I'm still looking at ways to just avoid having one altogether.

I'm thinking a VPP with a bunch of prewritten powers for ease in use would be best, so I'm not trying to power stunt a bazillion different applications of the power concept.

This guy and my dimensional distortion power concept (Locus) are both about the most "power-stuntable" concepts I've come up with, but that's sort of the point with both... not specifically the creation of stunts per se, but the fact that both are capable of exploiting almost any situation, objects of opportunity, and using "power-akido" to use the powers or attacks of others against them.

 

Oh, what does YMMV mean by the way? lol

 

On one thing I think we all agree - this is a cool power idea!

 

Thanks, glad it's interesting at least... I feel better asking questions when I feel that I've provided a challenge and maybe a little entertainment.

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Yup. it's a lot more complicated this way, but this is my second "Magneto" idea, the first being the dimensional distortion concept that’s mentioned here and here. I'm trying to model another simple power concept with wide-ranging applicability.

I'll check those other threads out; I'm always looking for good ideas to nick.

Yeah, "fades immediately" was what I was thinking if this guy wound up needing an END reserve, I'm still looking at ways to just avoid having one altogether.

Not sure why you'd need an END reserve. If the EB is linked to the Dispel, then you can't use it unless you've just Dispelled something, so that's all good.

 

I'm thinking a VPP with a bunch of prewritten powers for ease in use would be best, so I'm not trying to power stunt a bazillion different applications of the power concept.

Technically you need GM permission to link an entire framework to a power (assuming that's what you want to do - ie, link the VPP to a Dispel), but if you're the GM that's no problem (and if you're not, I think you have a decent chance of persuasion - it doesn't seem that abusive to me).

 

If you're not the GM, then you can always try sneaking a limitation such as "can only be used in a multiple power attack with Dispel" and seeing if he recognises it as "Linked".

 

I would imagine, BTW, that you would be able to whack this in a Multipower; I would have thought that an RKA, Energy Blast, TK, Running, and Flight would pretty much cover most effects. With a Multipower the linked limitation (assuming it's allowed) reduces the reserve cost as well, whereas with a VPP you're going to need (at least) the +1 "change as a zero phase action" modifier, and probably also the "no skill roll required". You might squeeze out -1 or so for "only for kinetic energy or thermal effects", but it's still going to be more expensive; of course, if you have lots of different ideas for what effects you can get, a VPP might be needed.

 

Not mutually exclusive anyway; you could start with a multipower and switch to a VPP as the number of slots grew to the point where it made more sense.

 

Oh, what does YMMV mean by the way? lol

Your Mileage May Vary. (Or sometimes "Your Method May Vary", but I prefer the former). Basically it means, "That's the way I'd do it."

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

I'll check those other threads out; I'm always looking for good ideas to nick.

[/size][/color]

 

Help yourself, the dimensional distortion concept is actually my personal favorite idea for a character, ever. Nick away.

 

Not sure why you'd need an END reserve. If the EB is linked to the Dispel' date=' then you can't use it unless you've just Dispelled something, so that's all good.[/quote']

 

I see no specific reason to have an END reserve, I only mentioned it to point out that if having an END reserve facilitated a simple way to build the power concept, I'd add in "fades immediately" to model the concept as intended.

 

Technically

you need GM permission to link an entire framework to a power (assuming that's what you want to do - ie' date=' link the VPP to a Dispel), but if you're the GM that's no problem (and if you're not, I think you have a decent chance of persuasion - it doesn't seem that abusive to me).[/quote']

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a bunch of prewritten powers inside the VPP that (for the most part) are 2-part, linked powers. I.E.

1. Drain linked to TK

2. Drain linked to EB

3. Drain linked to change environment

4. KB resistance linked to EB

et cetera.

 

If you're not the GM' date=' then you can always try sneaking a limitation such as "can only be used in a multiple power attack with Dispel" and seeing if he recognises it as "Linked". [/quote']

 

Reading comprehension for GMs course? I've had players that did that kind of thing... I congratulated them on their wit right before I smacked them with a parking meter. Of course, I'm not alway a "people person".

 

would imagine' date=' BTW, that you would be able to whack this in a Multipower; I would have thought that an RKA, Energy Blast, TK, Running, and Flight would pretty much cover most effects. With a Multipower the linked limitation (assuming it's allowed) reduces the reserve cost as well, whereas with a VPP you're going to need (at least) the +1 "change as a zero phase action" modifier, and probably also the "no skill roll required". You might squeeze out -1 or so for "only for kinetic energy or thermal effects", but it's still going to be more expensive; of course, if you have lots of different ideas for what effects you can get, a VPP might be needed.[/quote']

 

Multipower is worth looking at, if I'm going to prewrite everything there's no specific reason to VPP this, is there? I can always stunt something and add it into the multipower later, huh?

 

Not mutually exclusive anyway; you could start with a multipower and switch to a VPP as the number of slots grew to the point where it made more sense.

 

Good point.

 

Your Mileage May Vary. (Or sometimes "Your Method May Vary"' date=' but I prefer the former). Basically it means, "That's the way I'd do it."[/quote']

 

Right, gotcha. Thanks.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Not sure why you'd need an END reserve. If the EB is linked to the Dispel' date=' then you can't use it unless you've just Dispelled something, so that's all good.[/quote']

 

The END reserve is a good way to link drains with the use of other powers - even if it is a simple thing. You can build up the stored energy and then use more powerful energy blasts - and it gets round any limitations of linking to frameworks.

 

If you were looking at something that worked concurrently then the drain to END would replace the END used in firing, for example, a thermal blast and the strength of the thermal blast could be determined by the player (gambling that the drain would replace the END and not leave them exhausted) or by the amount drained - thus always being a zerosum game.

 

The problem with the concurrent thing is that you would normally use a multiple power attack on the same target (if I recall correctly) and personally I would want to draw from one source (transfer attack on target 1) to blast a villain (EB attack on target 2). Don't have it straight in my head how to do that within the rules...area effect selective allows that but would be tres expensive.

 

 

Doc

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

You raise two excellent points. I've actually even used END reserve in the manner you suggest (so I'm not sure why I didn't think of it), and you're 100% correct that an MPA is tricky to do if you want to Dispel/Drain/Transfer target 1 and EB target 2.

 

Hmm. Trigger, maybe? Ugly, and questionable even there. I don't know; Area Effect certainly works, but I can't help thinking that it shouldn't be quite that expensive (as after all you're only attacking one target, really).

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

See why I asked for input? My brain gets knotted every time I try to write this thing.

[GAZZA]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

OK, one way to do it that is definitely "book legal" but has really weird special effects would be to use Duplication.

 

Character Prime has all the suppress/dispel/drain stuff. Character Secondus has all the EB stuff. Character Secondus is also permanently Desolid (with powers Affects Solid) or perhaps in another dimension (with powers Transdimensional) - since Secondus is "not really there", he's just a special effect.

 

Basically, Secondus doesn't do anything except Hold Actions, and then whenever Prime Dispels/Suppresses/Whatever, Secondus fires off an appropriate attack.

 

Kludgy as all hell, but probably cheaper than Area Effect. Of course you get nailed with the issue that Affects Desolid or Transdimensional attacks can batter Secondus, but actually you could probably explain that (call it your "extradimensional energy source", which is somewhat vulnerable to disruption)...

 

... nah, forget it, I'm not even going to try and defend it.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Actually, that's not a bad build concept... hadn't thought of duplication.

 

Ok, new issue I came up with while on the can (where I have all my truly staggering epiphanies)...

 

For the moment, let's ignore AP costs for powers, just so I can go to extremes and make my point. Done? Ok, let's proceed.

 

If Conversion man could rob a van (so say 5200 lbs) going 60 MPH (88 feet per second) of all its kinetic energy, you could propel a quarter (0.009 lbs) at a speed of 3,466,666 MPH (5,084,444 feet per second). This is about .7% the speed of light; more than enough to cause the quarter to become plasma due to kinetic energy alone.

 

My question is this- how would you model the fact that the mass and speed of the "drained" target would have a direct impact on how much energy could be imparted to an attack.

 

I'm not suggesting this character should have TK that can accelerate objects to measurable fractions of the speed of light, but it makes the point of how much energy there is to be had if you stop something big enough.

[Utech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

My question is this- how would you model the fact that the mass and speed of the "drained" target would have a direct impact on how much energy could be imparted to an attack.

 

OK, I know you're not partial to the END Reserve idea, but I think it can solve your problem. Two steps:

1. Transfer energy to an END Reserve
   
2. a Linked Power uses the END Reserve to power itself.

The Transfer determines how much energy is taken from a target.

That energy is represented (for just a moment) by points in an END Reserve.

The Linked Power is now available for use. Dice limited by the amount of END in the END Reserve.

Any END unused at the end of the Segment fades instantly.

 

Primary Power:

xd6 Transfer any Characteristic or Power to END Reserve

Variable Effect, applies to all Characteristics and Powers with related special effects simultaneously (+2)

Variable Effect - Multiple Special Effects, can affect the defined number of powers in all special effects simultaneously (from 5ER page 112) (+2)

Limited Power, number of points Transferred limited to Active Points in use by target at time of Transfer (-1/4)

Limited Power, all Transferred points return to target on next Segment (-1/2)

Limited Power, all Transferred points fade from END Reserve on next Segment (-1/2)

 

Endurance Reserve:

x END Endurance Reserve

0 REC

 

Linked Powers (a long list of Powers including EB, RKA, TK, etc.):

xd6 Power, draws END from END Reserve

Variable Advantage (+x) (note: No Reduced END)

Variable Special Effects (+1/2)

Linked to Transfer (-1/2)

 

Here's what would happen:

Conversion Man sees a speeding van. He takes away the van's kinetic energy-

(Transfer Running)

-the kinetic energy is changed-

(to END Reserve)

-and given to a quarter.

(Linked TK using the END just provided by the Transfer)

 

The energy drained has a direct impact on how much energy can be imparted to an attack.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

That's a pretty workable way to put this concept together; I think about the closest so far to what I'm trying to model. Repping for serious rules-fu when I can.

 

As an admin note, I never actually said I was "anti-END reserve", just that I wasn't sure whether an END reserve was necessary for this power concept.

[Reality Czech]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

So... any thoughts on how to link the mass and speed of a drained object to the amount of END produced? Or if there's no END, how to link to the amount of force (active points of TK, EB, whatever) generated?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

So... any thoughts on how to link the mass and speed of a drained object to the amount of END produced? Or if there's no END' date=' how to link to the amount of force (active points of TK, EB, whatever) generated?[/quote']

 

You are trying to bring hard science into what is essentially a cinematic game. What you need to do is think about how much damage a truck going at 60MPH would do if it hit you - that is how much damage you should be thinking about transferring.

 

You could, if it made the science geek inside be quiet while you enjoyed yourself , explaing that xD6 EB was indeed equivalent to the energy drawn from a vehicle of that size....

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

Another approach might be to take adjustment powers and end reserves completely out of the picture and just have 2 powers: Force Wall & Energy Blast. The Force Wall defines what can be stopped. Limit the EB dice by the amount of Body that hits the Force Wall. Throw IPE on the FWall and Variable SFX on the EB. Make 0 END if you want.

 

Expensive as hell.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Look out! It's Conservation of Energy Man!

 

I'm now thinking of a variable effect transfer with EB. If you limit the EB to only use as much END as gained from the transfer in the same phase and the transfer limited by not when the EB is powered up then you can rapid fire a transfer/EB at a moving object and a target in the same phase.

 

If you wanted the option of powering up as well then the limit on the EB would have to be something like only using END transferred since the last firing of the EB or something similar.

 

 

Doc