What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I can do it!

 

Except that you purposely skewed the data in 3 ways when you started.

 

1) 8D6 attacks are supposed to have 16 PD/ED as the base defense (as per the guidelines in the book). By upping it to 20 PD/ED for the base (i.e. stopping over 70% of the damage), it skews the results.

 

2) You also did not go by the guidelines for how much base damage 350 point characters do, hence, drastically improving the DEF outlook.

 

3) Finally, you effectively gave +10 to PD/ED and +4 DC to the attacks, but only +9 to the DEX (because you selected a break point where +10 was the same as +9), so you gave a lower boost to DEX.

 

Hmmm.

 

Redoing your example with the appropriate corrections:

 

 

The starting DEX is irrelevant as long as they all have the same. The important aspect is the damage, and the damage/DEF ratio. For 350 point PCs, average max suggested damage is 12D6 and DEF = 24.

 

DEX +10* = 20

Damage +12 DC = 12d6

DEF +24 = 24 PD/ED

 

*I'm taking into account the amount DEX that goes to increase SPD

 

Okay, we have four things, let's make 3 imaginary characters that with the above starting stats and an extra 18 points to spend.

 

Character one we increase DEX by 9 points.

Character two we increase Damage by +3.5 DC

Character three we increase DEF by +9

 

Now, is any of these characters a clearly superior fighter when compared to the others?

 

DEX vs Damage:

 

DEX hits Damage with around 90.7% accuracy.

Damage hits Dex with around 25.9% accuracy.

Dex causes an average of 18 STUN to Damage on an average hit.

Damage causes an average of 30 STUN to Dex on an average hit.

Since they have equal SPD, we'll give 'em each, 10 shots.

Dex deals an average of 90.7% of 18x10 (180) = 163

Damage deals an average of 25.9% of 32x10 (320) = 78

Conclusion: Dex is superior to Damage.

 

Dex vs DEF

 

Dex hits Def with 90.7% accuracy, and causes 9 STUN on an average hit.

Def hits Dex with 25.9% accuracy, and causes 18 STUN on an average hit.

10 shots each:

Dex deals 90.7% of 10x9 = 82

Def deals 25.9% of 10x18 = 47

Conclusion: Dex is superior to Def.

 

Damage vs DEF

 

Damage hits Def with 62% accuracy, and causes 18 STUN on an average hit.

Def hits Damage with 62% accuracy, and causes 21 STUN on an average hit.

10 shots each:

Dex deals 62% of 10x18 = 112

Def deals 62% of 10x18 = 130

Conclusion: Damage is only slightly superior to Def.

 

 

So sure, you can make the math look like anything you want if you purposely do not use the guidelines in the book and start out skewing the data to prove your point. But, if you actually sit down and use the suggested guidelines from the book and then add the additional boost to each, it is much easier to see how easy it is for DEX to allow a PC to go nuts.

 

No rock, paper, scissors at all. Dex blew out the other by a considerable ratio.

 

 

Note: The other thing the game designers explicitly state is that DEF is something that should not be heavily boosted. They explicitly HALVE any adjustment powers to DEF because of how powerful that is as well. Unfortunately, they did not notice the same for DEX.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I think the problem here lies in your interpretation of what "superhuman" means.

 

It seems that you think "superhuman" means that to be considered a "superhuman" a person must have AT LEAST that level in their characteristics.

You would be wrong. My "interpretation" of a superhuman stat is exactly what Champions lists the stats at on page 58, as was listed in the first post of this thread.

Some characters might have "superhuman" characteristics if it fits their concept' date=' but no "superhuman" has to have even a single Characteristic in the "superhuman" range to qualify as superhuman.[/quote']Nor did I state that. This assumption is your error.

Finally' date=' there are balance issues to consider.[/quote']This is an illogical statement regarding soley DEX, or even DEX, INT, and EGO, when compared with the preponderance of NPCs with STR, CON, Defenses, REC, END, and STUN that exceed the superhuman limit of their own catagory.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

In the normal CU I believe Telios is the smartest with his 50 INT (Champions Universe and Evil Unleashed)

 

Next in line is Mentiac with a 40 (UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom)

 

 

 

You forgot one.

 

Slug 3000 has a base 31 DEX. With the Bracers of the Elders, it becomes a 37, which I believe makes him the highest published DEX in either version of the CU (don't have News of the World yet, so not sure)

 

He also has an EGO of 35...

Thank you very much!

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

But if they set Superhuman to 26+' date=' or put many of their published characters at 31+ I just think we'd be having the same discussion over either the benchmark being too low, or stat inflation. Which tells me it's all pretty arbitrary.[/quote']I disagree, primarily as I'm the one who created this thread and have had no inclination to discuss stat inflation. In addition, I do not believe we'd have this argument because 1)Pre-5E had many more characters with a >30 DEX (one of my favorites, Destruction from the Seven Horseman has a 38 DEX); and 2) there isn't a current thread regarding the 31+ characteristics of STR, CON, BODY, Defenses, REC, END or STUN. I'd be surprised if there has ever been a thread regarding these.

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If you take a 350 point character where the player started out with 350 points it will be totally different than if the character started with 250 and earned 100 XP. There is a huge difference between the two.

 

not really when you go by the math, the only difference is the +100 xp has been able to fine tune the points better...

 

First of all, I have never limited this discussion to just DEX/SPD. That's the example YOU used not me. Any power/ability characteristic that is that far away from everyone else fits. Now let's look at some of the other problems I said it would cause:

 

You said you started with 38 DEX/ 8 SPD. That's 116 points of your 250 point character, and that's if that's ALL you had. Now we know you had a martial artist, so you had at least 20 points in Martial Arts I'd bet. Now we're up to 136 points and you still only have a 6d6 attack 2/2 DEF and 20 STUN. I doubt you kept it that way, let's say you had an 8d6 attack there's another 8 points. I'd be willing to bet you had acrobatics and breakfall, another 6 points, and we're up to 150 points and you still have a 10 STR, 10 CON, 2/2 DEF's. I think I've pretty accurately proved that this is NOT a well rounded character.

 

 

Yep and when someone's OCV/DCV is 10 points higher than average and has taken none of the background skills the other players have taken, I'd say that's pretty unbalanced.

Since we're getting personal: I'd question any player that wanted to spend that many points to make sure they would have l337 combat SKILLZ.

 

 

1) this goes for everyone "Hero is a big sandbox, there is a lot of room here, Play nice"

 

2) The last game I played in (for those who care, met every other week for about 2 years, started at 200+150) my character was the only one who bought alot of non-combat skills (They spend between 3-15 points, I spent 75+). My combat abilities were below the rest of the group by a large amount, my best attack started at 4d6 RKA, a Demi brick had 7d6+1 HKAw/Str AF-3. The demi brick was closer to the average than I was. Assuming everything said here it would be reasonable to say that I should have made a character more combat orrientated. If I had done that, there would have been very little to our sessions. My high skills made up for me not having the same damage, I never felt that my character was weak, during combat I would do what I could, always knowing that we would never have found that combat without me.

 

See it's all about each character working together, each should have it's strengths, and it's weeknesses

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Personally' date=' there shouldn't have been a "superhuman" benchmark to start with.[/quote']This I disagree with, but coming from the other direction. Taking away the "superhuman" benchmark is taking away the human equation. If you don't know what "human" is, you don't know what "superhuman" means.

 

In every (successful) fantasy game system, be it HERO, D&D, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc., you have the human character. Why? Because that's what the players know. It's essentially a yardstick or a template to base all other races/species/classes off of. For 1st & 2nd Edition D&D, the humans have stats going from 3-18, but stats go all the way up to 25. Modify your character to become an elf, and you add DEX and subtract CON. Modify your template to become a dwar, you add CON and subtract something else. The humans are the basic design with all other races/species/characters modified from that. In Star Wars, you know that Wookies and Gamorreans are stronger than humans because humans exist and their templates add strength to the starting (human) prototype.

 

For HERO Games, our base characteristics start with 10 (with some "generic NPCS" being tossed to 8). Now, the "Normal" Characteristic Maximum is 20 on these stats. Why? Because we need to know what the NORMAL MAXIMUM is. For the physical stats, the Legendary ranges from 21-30; the HUMAN Maximum is 30. This tells us what the MAX is. We don't have to define exactly "What is a 30 CON" or "What is a 30 BODY" or how quick a reaction or coordination a 30 DEX character has. We need that yardstick to know that anyone beyond that has a superhuman stat in a super RPG.

 

Thus, characters can have "20" and we don't often blink an eye, the "skilled normals" will have 20 as par for the course with some stats going into 20-30 range. The PCs now become "legendary" in that stat. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Tony Atlas are "legendary" in their muscles and body, but they don't go into superhuman. Bulldozer on the other hand, has superhuman strength, because we know where that begins.

 

Also' date=' not every super has to be super in every stat. In truth, I don't think there's a call for a character to be superhuman unless that's their shtick.[/quote']Two points on this: 1)I never stated a super has to have superhuman stats for all their characteristics; my complaint is on the apparent self-blockage of HERO regarding DEX (and to an extent INT, and EGO).; 2) For characters that are known as speedsters (such as Kinetik, Taipan, and Vibron), they should have superhuman stats in DEX and SPEED.

 

Dr. D may be uber' date=' but he's not a speedster. He doesn't really need a 31+ Dex (He's bad enough without it).[/quote']While Dr. D. doesn't need a 31+ Dex, he's already faster than most speedsters. For example, Kinetik in CU has 26 DEX, 7 SPD, 20" 'Flight', Vibron in CKC has 29 DEX, 7 SPD, 20" Running. Both these speedsters can travel 140" at combat speed (I'm not concerned with Megascale or NCM) for one turn. Taipan has a 12 SPD, 30 DEX, 21" moving for 252" combat speed for one turn. Doctor Destroyer has an 8 SPD (more than two of the speedsters), 30 DEX (more than two of the speedsters), 30" Flight (more than all three) and moves 240" combat speed for a turn (more than two, nearly as much as Taipain). Dr. Destroyer and Taipain would have to have roll-offs to see who goes first on their shared phases. Dr. D. is effectively a brick, energy blaster, gadgeteer, speedster, and probably more rolled up into one. (Any wonder why I dislike him?)

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Because that reflects the source material.

It doesn't reflect the source material' date=' it [b']is[/b] the source material! There's just been no logical explanation of why NPCs are built with superhuman STR, CON, BODY, Defenses, SPD, REC, STUN, and END, but there seems to be some unwritten code that "DEX" (and to some extent, INT & EGO) cannot enter into the "superhuman" catagory.

 

The benchmarks are supposed to set how far a mere training based mortal can go.

Correct.

 

It just happens that when it comes to Int and Dex' date=' the limit that the training based characters can achieve happens to not be far off from maximum that almost all super powered characters achieve as well.[/quote']Which makes no sense. Why would someone who can run 100 MPH need a roll-off with a non-superstatted human to see who goes first?

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The Hero designers must be feeling a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" here.

 

So they obviously decided to take a stab at answering this, and now they are probably regretting having done so. Aren't we an ungrateful lot?

It seems more of the "victim of your own creation" or "you reap what you sow" to me.

 

The CU Characteristics Standards (CU, p. 58) have defined the human range on most Stats being 1-30, and that's fine. This isn't the problem, in fact, having the human range is a necessity. The problem lies with the reluctance to surpass Legendary and enter into the superhuman range for three obvious catagories (DEX, INT, and EGO). There appear to be no reservations about NPCs having superhuman strength if that's their schtick, but for some inexplicable decision, superhumanly fast NPCs don't have superhuman DEX.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The reason that the vast majority of published (combat-worthy) characters in the CU have Dex scores between 20 and 30 is because CVs don't scale well.

 

Once you have a discrepancy of DEX of 10 or more, you gain a massive advantage over your opponent.

This reasoning falls short. CSLs come into play. A PC with 30 DEX (spent 60 points) has the same CV as a PC with 20 DEX +3 All Combat skill levels (spent 54 points).

 

If the +10 DEX reasoning were an issue, then the plethora of 18 DEX characters made would void the creation of anyone with a 29+ DEX.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Now if the 20 INT character wants to raise his skills to 14- he has 2 choices: spend 20 points to raise each skill by 1 seperately' date=' [b']buy a 5 point skill level (which only adds to one skill at a time)[/b], or spend 5 points to raise his INT to 25 (gaining +1 with all 10 skills for 15 points less than if he had baught up the skills themselves).

[Emphasis mine] This is incorrect. Spending 5 points for a skill level gives you +1 with a group of similar skills, such as DEX or INT. If you are adding +1 to one skill at a time, that costs 2 points for characteristic based skills or 1 point for KS, SS, and PS.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

You describe what happens in your gaming group a lot. I propose that your body of experience is deep but not necessarily very broad.

 

The conclusions you draw from playing a DEX 43 character for 15 years may not necessarily apply to anyone else's campaigns.

 

$0.02

 

While this statement is true - his tesitmonials also show that everyone's fear of what will happen is also just as unapplicable to everyone else's campaigns.

 

We have a DEX48 SPD12 character in one of our games, hasn't been unbalancing yet. Hit her once she drops like a rock though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

[Emphasis mine] This is incorrect. Spending 5 points for a skill level gives you +1 with a group of similar skills' date=' such as DEX or INT. If you are adding +1 to one skill at a time, that costs 2 points for characteristic based skills or 1 point for KS, SS, and PS.[/quote']

 

Actually - no, it only applies to one skill at a time. Gideon is correct.

 

The 5pt Skill Level may be applied, in any given Phase to one from set of Skills.

 

+1 Dex Skill Levels may be allocated and applied to one DEX Based Skill in a Phase, it cannot be reallocated after the DEX Based Skill has been used in that Phase until your next Phase.

 

One Skill At A Time.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Dex or Ego 30 results in skill totals (without any other modifiers) of 15-. That's a 97.2% success rate for typical use of the skill without buying up the skills at all.

 

Ditto for combat. Without taking skill and other modifiers into account, the Dex 30 superhuman character hits the best human Dex 20 character on a 14- or 90.7% of the time.

[Emphasis mine]This bold print is why the reasoning fails. I would hazard to say the vast majority of HERO created NPCs in the CU have skill levels, particularly CSLs. I rarely create PCs without a CSL. You can't ignore an important aspect of the game (CSLs) and then say "This is why we can't produce 30+ characters in DEX/INT/EGO." HERO Games (particularly the Champions genre) don't have a "one character beats all" type. Look at the Champions in Champions. They are all 350 points but are different characters. Add in 350 pt Kinetik to that mix and you still have blanced characters.

 

As far as your math goes, I find it invalid since you presume no AoE, surprise, indirect, tag-team, etc. The precentages or chances vary with the circumstances, not base CVs.

 

But' date=' 30 is a good game mechanics cap for those characteristics that use the 3D6 mechanic and hence, it makes sense that the Champions Universe would use it for the most part.[/quote']This, too, falls flat on reasoning. If 30 was a game mechanic cap, then it should be stated as such. It is not a game cap.

 

I walked into a game a few months back with 350 point PCs and one of the PCs had a Dex of 41. That's ridiculous for 350 point PCs. That PC almost never misses and almost never gets hit. After one session' date=' I just shook my head and never went back. Course, I left for a lot of reasons, not just because of that, but not having reasonable and consistent caps on game elements is just not fun IMO.[/quote']Which is it? Did you leave because of the example or for "a lot of reasons"? You only played one session; that's hardly a sample of all their combat. Quite frankly, one AoE attack is all that's needed. What is a "reasonable" cap to begin with? Is it 120 Str? Why is 41 ridiculous for a 350 point game? That's 93 points spent, which is less than an Energyblaster with a 60pt MP with 6 60-point slots. What about a 700 point game? Is 41 ridiculous there? If not, why aren't there any?

 

In a game system where character creation (PC or NPC) consists of buying whatever anyone wants to whatever level one wants, there has to be limits or the game falls apart.

This is flawed as well: character creation, primarily PC, has a character point cap for starting characters. For the standard superheroic, it's 350 points. This doesn't allow anyone to "buy whatever anyone wants." Even if a GM allowed a player to spend 300 points on DEX, giving him a 110 DEX (CV 37) and 12 SPD. He only has 50 points left on his character, which is going to make his character very flawed in Defenses and Damage class. One AoE attack will not just likely hit the charcter, not just likely CON-Stun the character, but knock him out, if not do bodily harm to him as well. This character is likely to not hurt NPCs and is just as likely as to be taken out with one hit.

[Mentor]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Uh huh. Regardless of your claim here, the math is still important. 3D6 results in a very small set of possible numbers and an even smaller set of likely numbers.

 

 

 

And I bet they had to go out of their way to do it.

 

Why don't you illustrate your point by posting the type of attacks, number of attack dice, OCVs (with average modifiers), DCVs, Defenses, and SPDs of all of the PCs in that group and let the readers here decide?

 

You would be mistaken. I have run a significant portion of the games in which Zlf was involved. There has never been a problem challenging the PC.

 

She has been snatched up by Fezzik, a Brick with a 5 SPD and 23 DEX because he had 5 HtoH combat skill levels. He misses a lot but when he hits she cannot leg sweep him away as he is a giant and heavy, she can't break loose because his STR was 75 and when she hit him, he did not take any STUN. She needed back up from the team Brick to hurt the baddie but he had her in grasp.

 

She had to fight the Giant Spiders from Mars who had resistant defense and weak spots that would required her to get close enough to be hurt. The had a 23 DEX as well with three CSLs. She hits more but they hit harder. The average STUN per Turn was almost always a wash.

 

Explosive and AE attacks against the team meant that tougher PCs were able to take a few hits but Zlf had to burn some of those numerous actions dodging out of the way.

 

Look at this way. Zlf needs to hit an average Super villain four or five times to take them down. They need to hit her only once or twice. Zlf is likely to hit three times and maybe four in a turn. The baddies are likely to hit once and maybe twice during the same turn. The chances of either character going down has been pretty even, especially when the heroes have to rescue innocents or otherwise save the day. We are not talking about arena battles here.

 

Zlf as been unconscious face down at least as often as any other PC in the campaign.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If you take a 350 point character where the player started out with 350 points it will be totally different than if the character started with 250 and earned 100 XP. There is a huge difference between the two.

I agree. How is this germane to this discussion?

 

You said you started with 38 DEX/ 8 SPD. That's 116 points of your 250 point character, and that's if that's ALL you had. Now we know you had a martial artist, so you had at least 20 points in Martial Arts I'd bet. Now we're up to 136 points and you still only have a 6d6 attack 2/2 DEF and 20 STUN. I doubt you kept it that way, let's say you had an 8d6 attack there's another 8 points. I'd be willing to bet you had acrobatics and breakfall, another 6 points, and we're up to 150 points and you still have a 10 STR, 10 CON, 2/2 DEF's. I think I've pretty accurately proved that this is NOT a well rounded character.

Since when does well rounded = balanced?

 

We're discussing play balance here. Even if your math was correct (and it's not because the DEX and SPD have some Limitations) it's no sweat to get up to her 15 STR, 12PD/12 ED, and 18 CON with the remaining 100 points. I also bought her Acrobatics at a 21- (Now 22-) to reflect her Olympic gymnast background.

 

Yep and when someone's OCV/DCV is 10 points higher than average and has taken none of the background skills the other players have taken, I'd say that's pretty unbalanced.

Average CV for PC's in our campaign is around 10, not 4 (I can't even imagine where you pulled that number from). The team brick has a 23 DEX with 1 CSL.

 

Her current list of non-combat skills:

PS: Executive Assistant 12-

Bureaucratics 12-

Computer Programming (Personal Computers) 12-

Contortionist 18-

Dexterity Tricks 18-

High Society 12-

Language: Russian (Native)

Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)

Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic)

Riding (Horses) 18-

Animal Handler (Equines) 12-

Combat Piloting 18-

Combat Driving: Snow Skis 18-

+2 Overall

TF: Automobiles, Equines, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir & Small Spacecraft, Skiing (snow), Small Aircraft, Snowboarding

 

Good thing I didn't buy any background Skills, huh?

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

She has been snatched up by Fezzik' date=' a Brick with a 5 SPD and 23 DEX because he had 5 HtoH combat skill levels. He misses a lot but when he hits she cannot leg sweep him away as he is a giant and heavy, she can't break loose because his STR was 75 and when she hit him, he did not take any STUN. She needed back up from the team Brick to hurt the baddie but he had her in grasp.[/quote']

And here we have two problems: First it's an all or nothing situation. Never good IMO.

Second, yeah sure you needed +5 to hit Zlf, but what about the rest of the team? That same evil brick could have hit anyone on the team with no chance of failure, or have it so no one else on the team could possibly hit him. Then I have to ask the question: If you were in a fight, and you knew this really fast girl could hit you all day long and you wouldn't feel a thing, would you go after her first? So you had to come up with some contrived reason for that villian to go after that PC...and limits are the crutch?

She had to fight the Giant Spiders from Mars who had resistant defense and weak spots that would required her to get close enough to be hurt. The had a 23 DEX as well with three CSLs. She hits more but they hit harder. The average STUN per Turn was almost always a wash.

Go look at page 7 right under my last post, Karin's Dad, posted the numbers, and you can plainly see this is not the case, but let's pretend it is. Let's pretend that the damage done by both character's is equal, Zlf still wins, because she can take 4 recoveries a turn and still get more hits in.

Explosive and AE attacks against the team meant that tougher PCs were able to take a few hits but Zlf had to burn some of those numerous actions dodging out of the way.

She can dodge, take a recovery and still get in more attacks than anyone else, and what 90.7% of her attacks will hit the target.

Look at this way. Zlf needs to hit an average Super villain four or five times to take them down. They need to hit her only once or twice. Zlf is likely to hit three times and maybe four in a turn. The baddies are likely to hit once and maybe twice during the same turn. The chances of either character going down has been pretty even' date=' especially when the heroes have to rescue innocents or otherwise save the day. We are not talking about arena battles here.[/quote']

Again I think you need to look at Karin's dad's math, and are forgetting about the extra recoveries.

Zlf as been unconscious face down at least as often as any other PC in the campaign.

Using contrived methods or All or nothing techniques. I'd much rather play a balanced campaign.

 

I really find myself asking what the point of having stats that far out of baseline accomplishes. If it's no more effective than anything else, then what was the reason for it? If you can accomplish the same thing with other methods, then why don't you? The fact is, I think she's INCREDIBLY effective, it would go a long way to explaining why 3500 of his 3900 posts mention her.

 

Now we come to the point of limits. You have none, so in order for Zlf to get the feeling of one of the fastest people on the planet she needed a 38 DEX/ 8 SPD. If you had limits, if you said NO ONE can have higher than a 30 DEX (just making up numbers here), then Trebuchet could give Zlf a 30 DEX and KNOW she would be fastest. Heck come to you with a 32 and go low on DC's/DEF and would have the exact same feeling that needed a 38 to accomplish, then again what do I know, my abilites as a GM are totally in question because of one comment I made with made up numbers

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I agree. How is this germane to this discussion?

Please re-read the discussion. It follows a path towards proving my point

 

Since when does well rounded = balanced?

 

We're discussing play balance here. Even if your math was correct (and it's not because the DEX and SPD have some Limitations) it's no sweat to get up to her 15 STR, 12PD/12 ED, and 18 CON with the remaining 100 points. I also bought her Acrobatics at a 21- (Now 22-) to reflect her Olympic gymnast background.

I never said it had to be. In my original post (and repeated said "Other problems I said it would cause..")I said the problem with not having limits or having someone with an ungodly ability, meant they usually didn't have a well rounded character.

Average CV for PC's in our campaign is around 10' date=' not 4 (I can't even imagine where you pulled that number from). The team brick has a 23 DEX with 1 CSL.[/quote']

I exaggerated, not by much though. You have a 14 with +2 overall levels, so I was off by 4 (assuming you don't have Martial Arts skill levels, which I'd bet you do)

 

Her current list of non-combat skills:

PS: Executive Assistant 12-

Bureaucratics 12-

Computer Programming (Personal Computers) 12-

Contortionist 18-

Dexterity Tricks 18-

High Society 12-

Language: Russian (Native)

Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)

Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic)

Riding (Horses) 18-

Animal Handler (Equines) 12-

Combat Piloting 18-

Combat Driving: Snow Skis 18-

+2 Overall

TF: Automobiles, Equines, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir & Small Spacecraft, Skiing (snow), Small Aircraft, Snowboarding

 

Good thing I didn't buy any background Skills, huh?

First off that's CURRENT list, after how much XP? And now let's go through that list again shall we?

 

PS: Executive Assistant 12-

Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)

Are you honestly gonna include Everyman skills?

 

Computer Programming (Personal Computers) 12-

Contortionist 18-

Dexterity Tricks 18-

+2 Overall

Have combat uses

 

Combat Piloting 18-

Combat Driving: Snow Skis 18-

Please explain how Combat Piloting and Combat Driving are non-combat skills?

 

So now when we remove the ones you bought for combat purposes, and the ones that were given to you, let's see what we're left with:

 

Bureaucratics 12-

High Society 12-

Language: Russian (Native)

Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic)

Riding (Horses) 18-

Animal Handler (Equines) 12-

TF: Automobiles, Equines, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir & Small Spacecraft, Skiing (snow), Small Aircraft, Snowboarding

 

Wow you're right, what was I thinking

 

I mean you say she's an Olympic Gymnist, but has no konwledge of the Olympics. You say she's a martial artist but has no knowledge of martial arts, besides the manuvers. You really have nothing that is just there for flavor, with the possible execption of the Horse thing.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Could one of the members of the "DEX 43 is unbalancing and too hard to deal with" school please explain why DEX 43 is more difficult to deal with as a GM than:

 

A flying brick with Desolidification, Density Increase, and Spacial Awareness?

 

A mentalist with a 95 point VPP?

 

A MA who can teleport and turn invisible?

 

A flying EB with +5 DCV while in flight, a 1 kilometer radius Change Environment which generates both movement and CV penalties to which he is immune, and brick-level ED?

 

An EB with Duplication?

 

A demibrick who tunnels faster than he runs, has an EX EB, and can see and travel through solid rock?

 

An EB with both a Multipower and a small VPP?

 

 

Because these are Zl'f's teammates. Which one(s) does she overmatch?

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Could one of the members of the "DEX 43 is unbalancing and too hard to deal with" school please explain why DEX 43 is more difficult to deal with as a GM than:...

And here again you're confusing the issue. It's not a matter of saying DEX 43 is unbalancing. Heck if everyone else has a DEX of 108 it is decidedly underpowered. The issue at hand, (and what I've been arguing against) is when one character takes one ability and throws it way above what everyone else is working with, it can cause imbalances.

 

Even that isn't the real issue: You see limits as a crutch for a weak GM, I see it as the perfect tool for a great GM to get the feel he wants. if a GM knows what he's doing, he can apply limits and work off character CONCEPT instead of character mechanics. If you concept is to be a REALLY fast character, he can say: To accomplish that goal, you only need a 29 DEX. Everyone else will be running around with an 18-23 so you'll easily be the fastest. This is what limits do. This is how they help.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I exaggerated' date=' not by much though. You have a 14 with +2 overall levels, so I was off by 4 (assuming you don't have Martial Arts skill levels, which I'd bet you do)[/quote']And you'd be dead wrong.

 

You honestly consider a 40% exaggeration to be "not off by much"?

 

First off that's CURRENT list, after how much XP? And now let's go through that list again shall we?

 

PS: Executive Assistant 12-

Language: English (Completely Fluent, w/Accent)

Are you honestly gonna include Everyman skills?

Since her Native language is Russian, English is not an Everyman Skill for her (which was why I included Russian (Native) in the list.

 

Yes, it's the current list - I don't have the list she started with since it long predated Hero Designer. Sue me.

 

Combat Piloting 18-

Combat Driving: Snow Skis 18-

Please explain how Combat Piloting and Combat Driving are non-combat skills?

Yes, she often has martial arts fights on snow skis or while flying her Me-109.

 

Have you even read the descriptions for Combat Driving or Combat Piloting? They provide the ability to control the vehicle under difficult circumstances, such as combat or bad weather. They confer no direct combat abilities despite the name.

 

So now when we remove the ones you bought for combat purposes, and the ones that were given to you, let's see what we're left with:

 

Bureaucratics 12-

High Society 12-

Language: Russian (Native)

Language: Norwegian (Idiomatic)

Riding (Horses) 18-

Animal Handler (Equines) 12-

TF: Automobiles, Equines, Miniature Submarines, Mjölnir & Small Spacecraft, Skiing (snow), Small Aircraft, Snowboarding

 

Wow you're right, what was I thinking

I think it's pretty clear you weren't.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If you concept is to be a REALLY fast character' date=' he can say: To accomplish that goal, you only need a 29 DEX. Everyone else will be running around with an 18-23 so you'll easily be the fastest. This is what limits do. This is how they help.[/quote']Because the high DEX isn't about speed; it's about agility. It's about fantastic DEX skill rolls and avoiding getting hit, because with a CV only 2 or 3 higher than a character with a 23 DEX she'll get hit too often. That would require upping her defenses, which goes against her whole concept of being an artful dodger. IOW, 29 DEX as a cap is too granular and eliminates her entire raison d’être. She'd just be another run-of-the-mill MA.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Second, yeah sure you needed +5 to hit Zlf, but what about the rest of the team? That same evil brick could have hit anyone on the team with no chance of failure, or have it so no one else on the team could possibly hit him. Then I have to ask the question: If you were in a fight, and you knew this really fast girl could hit you all day long and you wouldn't feel a thing, would you go after her first? So you had to come up with some contrived reason for that villain to go after that PC...and limits are the crutch?

 

I'm laughing myself silly here. Now we have the flipping GM saying 'hey this is no problem'..and then are trying to say it is?

 

Oh please.

 

the Brick had +5 hand to hand levels..which you then say were only to hit the high Dex character. Bricks can use those for DCV, OCV, range penalties--skill levels are not uncommon. A Much lower Dex Martial Artist could easily run DCV's around her base DCV range as well.Gee, flipping through CKC,,bricks with hth levels galore!Evidently the whole CU universe is preparing for facings Treb's characters--it made the whole CU contrived!

 

Zlf still wins, because she can take 4 recoveries a turn and still get more hits in.

 

Of course, those recoveries actions are never challenged or stopped. No one can grab her, hit with a continuous attack..force her to abort actions to dive for cover.

 

 

She can dodge, take a recovery and still get in more attacks than anyone else, and what 90.7% of her attacks will hit the target.

 

As a GM, I'm going to say..so?

 

Again I think you need to look at Karin's dad's math, and are forgetting about the extra recoveries.

 

And you need to look at..well, anything but math contrived to support an opinion.

 

Using contrived methods or All or nothing techniques. I'd much rather play a balanced campaign.

 

Nice little backhanded insult action there.

 

I really find myself asking what the point of having stats that far out of baseline accomplishes.

 

Umm, it shows superhumans come in all different types, not narrowly restricted bands?

 

 

If it's no more effective than anything else, then what was the reason for it?

 

The same reason every other character has been made.

 

 

 

Heck come to you with a 32 and go low on DC's/DEF and would have the exact same feeling that needed a 38 to accomplish, then again what do I know, my abilities as a GM are totally in question because of one comment I made with made up numbers

meanwhile though...you have no problem calling a game unbalanced based off a single statistic variant.

 

 

Ranges and limits are particular to campaigns. Evidently, His groups GM's is more comfortable than you at handling wide variances. So..no problem.

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Again assuming KarinsDad's math is correct, with +9 DEX, you'll get hit about 25% of the time, and you'll hit them 90% of the time. Then remember Skill levels and Martial Manuvers. Defensive strike adds +2 or +3 to DCV, you've accomplished the same thing without having to blow anyone out, and still saved enough points to make a character instead of a combat monster.

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Ranges and limits are particular to campaigns. Evidently, His groups GM's is more comfortable than you at handling wide variances. So..no problem.

First let me ask that you actually read and understand the argument prior to responding to it, it makes sure you responses are actually relevant, and speaking of offhanded insults, right back attcha!

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Of course' date=' those recoveries actions are never challenged or stopped. No one can grab her, hit with a continuous attack..force her to abort actions to dive for cover.[/quote']Yeah, I love taking a Recovery in combat when it reduces me to 1/2 DCV and my massive 12 PD/12 ED to survive.

 

It won't surprise you to know that Fezzik was designed by Mentor to fight our team brick Silhouette, not Zl'f. The scenario was a running chase through the riverside area of London, and PC's and villains were scattered over a several block area. Zl'f just happened to run into Fezzik while in pursuit of another villain. His extra levels (and a really good roll) meant he nabbed her even when she was doing a full blown Martial Dodge (DCV 19 at the time)!