What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I think what KarinsDad is saying, while possibly a little on the strong side, is not invalid.

 

CV 11 vs CV 8:

• CV11 hits CV8 on a 14 or less, or 91% of the time.
  
• CV8 hits CV11 on an 8 or less, or 26% of the time.

That works out that CV11 hits approximately 3.5 times as often as CV8 does. All else being equal*, that means that CV8 has to do about 3.5 times as much damage on average as CV11 does (whether that is achieved by more powerful attacks or DEF, or a mixture of the two, is up to the GM). You absolutely can set things up so that this differential exists, of course.

 

*Yes, perhaps the CV8 character has more noncombat utility, can move faster, or whatever - there are a number of factors - but that doesn't make the comparison invalid, just harder.

Sure, but the differential is not a flaw of the Hero system - it's a feature. People should not be treating this like it's a problem. It's only a problem if people let it become one.

 

The higher CV character will probably win only if all other things are equal. Proper game balance means providing both opponents and teammates that will not consistently be at a disadvantage in combat compared to a character with higher CV. Whether that means drafting an opponent's powerset that bypasses the characters's normal CV advantages or an environment that neutralizes it, it is possible to adjust for it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I've always thought she sounded intriguing. It would kind of fun just seeing her but if its a big trouble forget I said anything. I wouldn't bother just for the point.

I could post her easily enough, but at this point I suspect it'll just be grist for the anti-DEX mill that seems to have arisen. If you're genuinely interested I'd be happy to e-mail you a copy of her hdc file; just PM me.

[Bloodstone]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Because of the bell curve system there is a system of diminishing gain. As such when there is a great difference in CV there is very little gain in actual hitting. The only (Considerable) advantage of having a dex of 41 is when you face the guy with a Dex of 35, not the guy with dex 18

 

Not entirely true if you have a means of converting that CV into extra damage... such as Autofire or Sweep/Rapid Fire.

 

That said, I don't think an extreme DEX score is all that big of a deal in many cases. Depends on the setting of course. I've seen Zl'f posted before. She VERY good at what she does, but she's not some unstopable killing machine, especially in a supers setting.

 

She has low normal defenses compared to most characters in the CU (low double digits DEF, single digit rDEF), no exotic defenses (though she has Regen and some LS) and she doesn't do all that much damage for a 400+ point character (she's in the 8- 10d6 range except when doing self destructive things like move throughs).

 

Presumably she frequently faces opposition that forces her into more of a support role, since at least one of her team mates hits for 15d6 or more. Anything that can shrug off 15d6 probably isn't going to even notice Zl'f

 

If anything, I have to commend Treb for having the self restraint he has with her. Most of my Speedsters and Martial Artists get pretty close to her CV's and easily have twice as much normal DEF...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Uh huh. Regardless of your claim here' date=' the math is still important. 3D6 results in a very small set of possible numbers and an even smaller set of likely numbers.[/quote']

 

While true, as others have noted, hitting every time hardly matters if you rarely or never inflict damage. DCV makes no difference against AoE's or mental attacks. High DEX alone doesn't make a character unstoppable.

 

If you want to see the character, run a forum search - Treb has posted her before. Very high CV, lowish DC's and defenses. Seems workable.

 

And I bet they had to go out of their way to do it.

 

Why don't you illustrate your point by posting the type of attacks, number of attack dice, OCVs (with average modifiers), DCVs, Defenses, and SPDs of all of the PCs in that group and let the readers here decide?

 

It doesn't make much difference what I think, you think or most of the rest of the posters or lurkers think, does it? What matters is what the other players and GM's in their game not only think, but have actually experienced. That's been pretty clear over the years - their game works with characters with a wide spread of abilities.

 

Speaking for myself, that seems like a much more vibrant game, reflective of the source material, than a game where every character does 12 DC damage, has a CV of 10 - 12, defenses of 25 - 30 and a speed of 5 or 6. Kudos to Treb and his fellow gamers for making the game bring the source material to life.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

 

The higher CV character will probably win only if all other things are equal. Proper game balance means providing both opponents and teammates that will not consistently be at a disadvantage in combat compared to a character with higher CV. Whether that means drafting an opponent's powerset that bypasses the characters's normal CV advantages or an environment that neutralizes it, it is possible to adjust for it.

 

And where is it written in stone that characters must be equal in stragith up combat? Some characters are simply better at a straight up fight, while others depend upon more specialized circumstances.

 

and the many, many ways to eliminate the DCV advantage of the high dex character abound. running a math excercise and right then, without any other info calling somethign unbalanced, especially in tyhe Hero system, is just silly.

[BNakagawa]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

This isn't a game about math; it's a role-playing game. My 15 years of experience with my DEX 43 character does not match your theory.

 

You describe what happens in your gaming group a lot. I propose that your body of experience is deep but not necessarily very broad.

 

The conclusions you draw from playing a DEX 43 character for 15 years may not necessarily apply to anyone else's campaigns.

 

$0.02

[BNakagawa]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

What was that sound? Oh, mentalists everywhere retiring.

 

Really a few points of EGO def really put the hurt on mentalists mentalist--not that the rules aren't stacked against them anyway.

 

I still can't bring myself to run a 10 Ego hero (or 10 PRE for that matter) unless his name will be Wet-my-pants-man.

 

I don't really see how you could draw that conclusion, but then again, I don't know what sort of campaign you're playing in.

 

In a mechanoid invasion inspired game, yeah, mentallists are getting screwed unless they are allowed to buy the machine class of mind as the standard. And even then, it's pretty easy to justify all the enemies getting upgraded anti-virus systems after the first few beatings.

 

Other than that, if you look at the published materials, the average non-mentallist villain has a lousy ego and no mental defense.

 

The mentallist gets to drill them at LOS range with no penalties to accuracy for range, hitting lousy ecvs with an attack that does pure stun (because anyone you actually use an ego attack against has no mental def) that's invisible power effect to boot.

 

I don't know what you're talking about, mentallists getting the short end of the stick...

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Gee, we've managed to keep everyone in the campaign happy for 15 years despite playing with that character. What're we doing wrong?

 

As long as everyone gets a chance to shine occasionally (IMHO best enforced with schticks, not caps) high numbers on Characteristics or attacks are not a problem. The DEX 23/ SPD 4 brick is every bit as effective as her DEX 43/ SPD 9 MA teammate. The flying EB makes a good counterpoint to the VPP mentalist.

This appears to be a different situation. You're martial artist didn't start out with a 43 DEX / 9 SPD she got it with XP...The same XP every other character got (or close to it) which is a HUGE difference.

You seem to operate on the narrow assumption that every character has to be equally effective against every opponent and in every situation; or that the ability to pound down opponents is the be-all of superheroing. We've had battles where only my MA could hit the high DCV villain; and we've had ones where it took the 75 STR brick to harm the villain the MA couldn't scratch. Better yet' date=' we've had combats we only won because the two of them worked together.[/quote']And you seem to be working on the narrow, and I dare say boarderline offensive, assumption that anyone who can't accomplish the same thing as a group that's been playing together for 15 year must have a weak GM.

 

I am not advocating everyone being the same. I am advocating that everyone have the same usefulness, and get an equal share of the GM's time. If the GM spend 80% of his time trying to figure ways to get around one characters ungodly ability, something is very wrong with that picture.

It works because our players are not in competition with each other but are as much a team as our characters are.

And having limits and guildlines works because it puts everyone on an equal playing field and balance is achieved without one character dominating either the GM's time, or the game itself.

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I don't know what you're talking about' date=' mentallists getting the short end of the stick...[/quote']

Ego Attacks work fine. It's all the other mental powers that (arguably) don't. With a 10 DC cap against EGO 10 you can't get EGO + 30 on an average roll, and while you can manage that with a 12 DC cap, it still gets a better-than-50% breakout roll before it's effective on average.

 

Give everyone Mental Defence and it just gets even harder. (Though personally I'm not convinced that making Mental Defence a figured stat - resulting in 2 or 3 points for most published characters - would make mentalists scream too much).

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

How often we play is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Then why did you bring it up?

 

The 15 years of playing your PC was your "massive gaming experience support" for your POV, only it was misleading. Now suddenly, you are taking the position that how often you played is not relevant?

 

Odd that. Can't have it both ways, either you have a lot of experience that proves (at least to you) the math wrong, or you don't.

 

Did your PC actually start out with a 43 DEX at 350 points? Or did you embellish that as well?

 

43 DEX is 99 active points. That's a big chunck of 350. Doable, but still overkill IMO. I doubt many 350 Bricks have Str of 109 (which I would also find unbalanced at the 350 point total). Did the brick in your group have a Str around 109?

 

Anecdotal evidence is all nice and well, but one has to look at the math too.

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Ego Attacks work fine. It's all the other mental powers that (arguably) don't. With a 10 DC cap against EGO 10 you can't get EGO + 30 on an average roll, and while you can manage that with a 12 DC cap, it still gets a better-than-50% breakout roll before it's effective on average.

 

Give everyone Mental Defence and it just gets even harder. (Though personally I'm not convinced that making Mental Defence a figured stat - resulting in 2 or 3 points for most published characters - would make mentalists scream too much).

 

Something I did in my game, and it may seem odd, regarding mentalist

 

The average person* has x2 to Mental effects (Does not include Ego Blast)

 

MD is a figured Characteristic. (NCM 8)

 

*I make a distinction between average and heroic, a heroic may be normal but is not the same as average, so most "non powered" heroes and villains would still be considered heroic and not have this vulnerability

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Yeah, Mystic Masters applied that across the board, but then everyone in that setting is expected to have high EGO and MD.

 

It's a tricky one - the All-Or-Nothing nature of mental powers means that the balance is hard to strike (to some extent the new Cumulative option can be used to get reasonable-AP effects if you're prepared to take a bit longer, though).

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The 15 years of playing your PC was your "massive gaming experience support" for your POV, only it was misleading. Now suddenly, you are taking the position that how often you played is not relevant?

 

The manner of hwo the grpup played isnt ..because grousp all differ. He's just citing the time as proof of experience and familiarity. You can doubt it if you will, and turn this whole matter into an RPG version of who has the biggest **** contest if you will, but if its goign to descend to that level, shouldnt we move this to rpg.net?

 

Odd that. Can't have it both ways, either you have a lot of experience that proves (at least to you) the math wrong, or you don't.

 

Well since you havent (and can't) prove the math right, why shoudl anyone bother?

 

Anecdotal evidence is all nice and well, but one has to look at the math too.

 

ok, fine. Show me the math that the dex difference makes a imbalance thats insurmountable--while disregarding the pssibilities of different defense levels, DC levels and so on. Isolating one characteristic and saying 'tada, that creates imbalance' is the UFO theorey of this thread, so to speak.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

You describe what happens in your gaming group a lot. I propose that your body of experience is deep but not necessarily very broad.

 

The conclusions you draw from playing a DEX 43 character for 15 years may not necessarily apply to anyone else's campaigns.

 

$0.02

 

Treb's drawing the same conclusion I am. I'll back him up completely on this as I've had similar experiences in games I've played and run.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

 

I don't know what you're talking about, mentallists getting the short end of the stick...

 

Going beyond Ego attack (which is a good power, agreed), the oother mental powers have lots of problems. and anythign other than straight out simple versiosn of the power become hideously expensive to take, much less maintain.

 

A way around this is , as many have noted, the old cumulative advantage, but it also has the effect of pushing mentalists to the role of trying to avoid combats, or mainly being useful before a combat, then resort back to old boring "I ego attack..again' in combat.

 

Of course, conservativeness in the rules when it comes to powrs like mind control and mental illusion are understandable. If I had no other option, as a game designer, between making mental powers slightly weaker, or slightly overpwered, I'd probably hedge to the weaker side as well. an energy blast can knock you out. a Mind control can make you..well do unspeakable things, betray friends, destroy your secret identity, ; a completely +30 effect miond control is far more effective than knocking an enemy out--its taking an opponent and making them an ally in combat.

 

So I understand the caution--but I think theres plenty enough caution there. It takes a skilled player to get a lot of good results outr of a mentalist, where as its easier to build and run an effective brick or energy blaster. Any more corrective action, like the free MD for all, would be a bit too much IMHO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

ok' date=' fine. Show me the math that the dex difference makes a imbalance thats insurmountable--while disregarding the pssibilities of different defense levels, DC levels and so on. Isolating one characteristic and saying 'tada, that creates imbalance' is the UFO theorey of this thread, so to speak.[/quote']

 

Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I can do it!

 

Let's give everyone a base of 40 points to spend in basic DEX, Damage and Defense. We get:

 

DEX +20* = 30

Damage +8 DC = 8d6

DEF +20 = 20 PD/ED

 

*I'm taking into account the amount DEX that goes to increase SPD

 

Okay, we have four things, let's make 3 imaginary characters that with the above starting stats and an extra 20 points to spend.

 

Character one we increase DEX by 10 points.

Character two we increase Damage by +4 DC

Character three we increase DEF by +10

 

Now, is any of these characters a clearly superior fighter when compared to the others?

 

DEX vs Damage:

 

DEX hits Damage with around 90% accuracy.

Damage hits Dex with around 26% accuracy.

Dex causes an average of 8 STUN to Damage on an average hit.

Damage causes an average of 22 STUN to Dex on an average hit.

Since they have equal SPD, we'll give 'em each, 10 shots.

Dex deals an average of 90% of 8x10 (80) = 72

Damage deals an average of 26% of 22x10 (220) = 57

Conclusion: Dex is superior to Damage.

 

Dex vs DEF

 

Dex hits Def with 90% accuracy, and causes 0 STUN on an average hit.

Def hits Dex with 26% accuracy, and causes 8 STUN on an average hit.

10 shots each:

Dex deals 90% of 10x0 = 0

Def deals 26% of 10x8 = 20

Conclusion: Def is superior to Dex.

 

Not to make a long story short, but it turns out Damage is superior to Def (62% of 10x12 vs 62% of 10x8). Guess what folks, it's just like Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

There is no trump card here. Sorry to disappoint.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

 

Not to make a long story short, but it turns out Damage is superior to Def (62% of 10x12 vs 62% of 10x8). Guess what folks, it's just like Rock, Paper, Scissors.

 

 

Hot Damn! Wake up Steve and the crew! Tell him we've got the base mechanics for sixth edition done, and the good news is, we should be able to shorten the book..considerably!

[Comic]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If raw DEX scores are causing all this disputation, I can't imagine what sort of issues Shrinking, Invisibility, Ranged Skill Levels + Distance, or "let the Mentalist deal with Jack B. Nimble" would cause.

 

I've never experienced an insurmountable issue with widely divergent Dex's or even CV's. Sometimes, GMs set caps. Sometimes, GMs and players just use the obvious differences as reasons to alter their tactics and make more use of settings, circumstances, and noncombat actions to generate more interesting stories.

 

Case 1. Up against a NPC enemy with 53 Dex? Could switch to AoE's, and hope their Dive for Cover isn't enough, or use some other specific power in your character's current build. Or, you could back off and try to negotiate -- Speedsters are typically fun people who are easy to get along with if you're nice. (Except when they aren't.) Could lure them close by playing possum and catch them off guard. Expand your character's repertoire by roleplaying how they cope with something a little out of their league instead of just trading punches. Sure, tricks and avoiding confrontations you're sure to lose can only go on for so long. But by the time they do, if you're lucky, you have the XP to spend on something to more reliably cope with the unexpected.

 

Case 2. Allied with a 33 Ego Mentalist, and worried that every session is going to be just "Watch Professor M fry the badguys from his armchair while the rest of the team is still getting into tights," except when "NPC Mentalist fries the rest of the team and Professor M saves the team in solo combat?" That's just as (un)likely to happen with a 20 Ego Mentalist, and there are plenty of ways to roleplay and actions to take that contribute to the well-run campaign even if you are in a group that includes at least one Pro from Dover. Figuring them out for yourself or with the others in the group is part of the challenge and the fun, I believe.

 

Case 3. You are the 60 Dex character, and your nearest rival (enemy or ally) in agility has a stat in the mid-20's? Use all those extra CV points to add some dash, show, and hopefully team-assisting flare to help set up your allies to get better results in combat. Don't hit the enemy every chance you get, if sacrificing a sure shot means giving a teammate a better opening, helps draw enemy fire from the more vulnerable members of the squad, or weakens the bad guy's position in some way that helps move the campaign forward.

 

I've seen excellent players of high Dex characters skip combat actions entirely and use stealth to sneak around and investigate during the combat, or get into position to rescue anyone who got unlucky in the fight, or mostly to deliver knockout blows to stunned enemies. One had the motto, "The only good fight is one no one knows I was even in."

 

This sort of activity typically requires sacrificing enough CVs to still keep the actual give-and-take of battle interestingly balanced.

 

Sometimes, it's not all about winning or losing. My best GM always made combats a matter of tradeoffs -- you could win the fight, but you may lose the clues if you fought only to win. Gambits needed to gain clues from combats meant you would need to give up CVs for maneuvers, give up combat actions for noncombat ones, know when to surrender or flee or even let the bad guys get away.

 

And sometimes villains don't fight fair. It doesn't matter what Dex the bad guy has if he's demented. In one hand, Gobbie holds Spidey's girl high over a chasm; in the other, a mittload of innocent children. Can't save the both Spidey. (Well, unless you take a -6 penalty to grab both, plus adjustments for range, plus make an impossible acrobatics roll.)

 

The only stat in the game that comes with a mechanical cap is SPD. (I've seen a build that went above SPD 12 which, while I'm sure is not to everyone's taste worked for the group who played with it.) If going capless is good for you and your players, I see no reason a mature group with diligent GMing couldn't make it work. Caps are an option, albeit admittedly a very convenient and helpful one.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

You describe what happens in your gaming group a lot. I propose that your body of experience is deep but not necessarily very broad.

 

The conclusions you draw from playing a DEX 43 character for 15 years may not necessarily apply to anyone else's campaigns.

 

$0.02

I have also played in other groups prior to forming this one; and have played in multiple genres using Hero: Champions, Danger International, Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero. The same high-DEX character was briefly played in another group prior to this one and also was in no way overwhelming. The fact she worked for two very different campaigns are fairly good evidence that the problem is not with the high DEX but with gaming groups.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

This appears to be a different situation. You're martial artist didn't start out with a 43 DEX / 9 SPD she got it with XP...The same XP every other character got (or close to it) which is a HUGE difference.

No, she started as a DEX 38/SPD 8 character in a 250 point campaign. I'm fairly certain that's a large a relative DEX difference as the higher numbers supposedly are in a 350 point campaign. I fail to see how the XP difference is relevant anyway - most of the other characters have XP in the 50+ range.

 

And you seem to be working on the narrow, and I dare say boarderline offensive, assumption that anyone who can't accomplish the same thing as a group that's been playing together for 15 year must have a weak GM.

Weak GM, bad players, lousy karma. I don't know; what I do know is that it can be done without caps and that high DEX is not some sort of magical unbalancing agent. Yes, we have a gifted group, but I refuse to believe we're unique. Caps are not a magic fixall; they are a crutch.

 

I am not advocating everyone being the same. I am advocating that everyone have the same usefulness, and get an equal share of the GM's time. If the GM spend 80% of his time trying to figure ways to get around one characters ungodly ability, something is very wrong with that picture.

And having limits and guidelines works because it puts everyone on an equal playing field and balance is achieved without one character dominating either the GM's time, or the game itself.

Play balance is synergetic. No one item - be it Characteristics, Powers, or Talents - is overbalancing. It's the combination of these factors and others less tangible like playstyle that can produce imbalance.

 

Because you can't see a way to deal with a situation doesn't mean others cannot. If a DEX 43 character would really make you spend 80% of your time trying to deal with it to the exclusion of all other characters, that's not much of a recommendation to take your skills as a GM seriously.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Treb's drawing the same conclusion I am. I'll back him up completely on this as I've had similar experiences in games I've played and run.

Shh! You'll ruin my evil scheme to destroy all other Champions campaigns by introducing DEX 43 characters. All those other campaigns will collapse from imbalance and then I'll rule the world!

[Dust Raven]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Shh! You'll ruin my evil scheme to destroy all other Champions campaigns by introducing DEX 43 characters. All those other campaigns will collapse from imbalance and then I'll rule the world!

 

Oh, yeah... right. Sorry.

 

A-hem. Yeah, DEX bad... it's unbalancing and stuff... buy STR instead. It's... apparently really cheap.

 

[MitchellS]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The math does not agree with you. It's significantly inflated.

 

A 33 Dex character will hit the average 23 Dex character 90.7% of the time whereas the average 23 Dex character will hit the 33 Dex character 25.9% of the time.

 

And what about the slightly one point lower than average 22 Dex character? 95.4% vs 11.6%.

 

I don't care what the relative defenses are, these are slaughters.

 

And if your theory is correct, your Dex 43 character had to be in an average 33 Dex campaign setting (and if so, would still mostly slaughter his opponents on average). If his opponents had an average Dex below 33, your PC was even more mathematically unbalanced. Might as well be playing a computer game with all of the cheat codes. IMO.

So what you're saying is 33 dex guy is bad for the game but a 23 dex guy with the defensive strike maneuver and 2 levels with defensive strike is ok for the game, even though both characters would be 11 ocv and dcv?

 

Flat comparisons such as yours are useless the moment you start adding martial arts maneuvers and combat levels to the character. Assuming a standard Champions game many 21-26 dex characters will buy 1-3 combat levels. Many 30 to 35 dex characters won't.

[Vondy]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I have also played in other groups prior to forming this one; and have played in multiple genres using Hero: Champions' date=' Danger International, Fantasy Hero, Pulp Hero. The same high-DEX character was briefly played in another group prior to this one and also was in no way overwhelming. The fact she worked for two very different campaigns are fairly good evidence that the problem is not with the high DEX but with gaming groups.[/quote']

 

Insofar as the scales for the games were similar, it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I'd be more worried about SPD and OCV ratios than DEX ratios in similar genres (or high powered versions of some not so similar genres).

 

A character with a 43 Dex has a 14 OCV. In my Freedom Patrol game, which most people would consider low on the DEX/SPD end, the Martial Artist (top Dex Dog - most were 18-20) had a 30 Dex and 4 All Combat Levels. Also 14 OCV. Insofar as the speedster was using raw dex and not levels, and the speeds were within a point or two, were within a point or two (his was five) he'd have fairly even odds.

 

On the other hand, his martial arts were purchased as powers, and used correctly, I suspect he'd actually put some fear into most speedsters I've seen based on the power combinations he could bring into play, which included deso as invulnerability versus hand-to-hand attacks "pit viper dance - supernal defense" and some spooky lethal ki attacks (which included an AVLD Does Body HKA).

 

From your other comments about Zlf I'd actually be very cautious about how he was used in a show-down with her because it might be lethal. His showdown with an 8 SPD Speedster (the highest in the game) resulted in him taking a "dramatic" beating that resulted in no body and no con-stuns, and the speedster going to the morgue when he finally got his shot(s) in. And the "low dex" members of the team tended to be the "powered characters" who had FX based VPPs and options for negating the advantages of high DEX.

 

People look at the ratios for my Freedom Patrol game and assume its "low powered," (often, but not always: lower DCs and lower DX/SPD ratios), but there are some real powerhouses (as well as subtler "tough-nuts to crack"), and it has more of a pulp/espionage morality than a four-color one, which means it can turn gritty and painful (and characters tend to have some nested resistant defenses to increase survivability because of it).

 

For me, a 43 Dex wouldn't automatically be a rejection. I'd have to see what else was going on with the character and how they fit in with the group as a whole - both in terms of niche and overall setting balance. In fact, I generally look at survivability before lethality because of differing genre assumptions. The Freedom Patrol doesn't have a speedster, so barring poaching on Martial Artists domain (which has other aspects), I would probably approve it (though it would be the highest DEX in the setting).

 

In fact, I would be more worried about the personality and story potential of the character, and what went hand in hand with the 43 Dex, than the 43 Dex itself.

 

--I'm of the opinion that caps are best set as guidelines for newly formed groups, or new genres, and considered loose-rules until everybody "gets it." Better than caps are reference materials and characters people can look over before playing. Even when you do start with caps, they can generally be discarded when the group grows together and gets a feel for the game.

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

No' date=' she started as a DEX 38/SPD 8 character in a 250 point campaign. I'm fairly certain that's a large a relative DEX difference as the higher numbers supposedly are in a 350 point campaign. I fail to see how the XP difference is relevant anyway - most of the other characters have XP in the 50+ range.[/quote']

If you take a 350 point character where the player started out with 350 points it will be totally different than if the character started with 250 and earned 100 XP. There is a huge difference between the two.

 

Weak GM' date=' bad players, lousy karma. I don't know; what I do know is that it can be done without caps and that high DEX is not some sort of magical unbalancing agent. Yes, we have a gifted group, but I refuse to believe we're unique. Caps are not a magic fixall; they are a crutch.[/quote']

First of all, I have never limited this discussion to just DEX/SPD. That's the example YOU used not me. Any power/ability characteristic that is that far away from everyone else fits. Now let's look at some of the other problems I said it would cause:

 

You said you started with 38 DEX/ 8 SPD. That's 116 points of your 250 point character, and that's if that's ALL you had. Now we know you had a martial artist, so you had at least 20 points in Martial Arts I'd bet. Now we're up to 136 points and you still only have a 6d6 attack 2/2 DEF and 20 STUN. I doubt you kept it that way, let's say you had an 8d6 attack there's another 8 points. I'd be willing to bet you had acrobatics and breakfall, another 6 points, and we're up to 150 points and you still have a 10 STR, 10 CON, 2/2 DEF's. I think I've pretty accurately proved that this is NOT a well rounded character.

 

Play balance is synergetic. No one item - be it Characteristics' date=' Powers, or Talents - is overbalancing. It's the combination of these factors and others less tangible like playstyle that can produce imbalance.[/quote']

Yep and when someone's OCV/DCV is 10 points higher than average and has taken none of the background skills the other players have taken, I'd say that's pretty unbalanced.

Because you can't see a way to deal with a situation doesn't mean others cannot. If a DEX 43 character would really make you spend 80% of your time trying to deal with it to the exclusion of all other characters' date=' that's not much of a recommendation to take your skills as a GM seriously.[/quote']Since we're getting personal: I'd question any player that wanted to spend that many points to make sure they would have l337 combat SKILLZ.