What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Its very easy for those of us who have' date=' or had, long standing groups who grew into an implicit mutual understanding and style together, to forget how easily games get screwed up without guidelines - especially when that game runs on the higher end to start with.[/quote']A point well made; especially since I game with one of those long standing groups who grew into an implicit mutual understanding and style together.

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I have to agree with BNakagawa.

 

And EGO follows the same resoning as DEX.

 

In fact, EGO can have an even more dramatic difference. When the majority of Supers have an ECV of 3-5 (EGO 10-14, typically), an EGO of 20 (ECV 7) gives the Mentalist a 13- or better to hit anyone. Or nearly anyone.

 

Since mental powers tend to be less well defended against than physical or energy, this difference gets compounded to make mentalists very powerful compared to others. In fact, in most games, who actually buys Mental DEF?

 

I would argue that a trained paranormal (superhuman?) should probably buy 5 points of Mental DEF, and have an EGO of 13-15, much like the DEXterity of those characters will tend to range from 18-23 (as a low range!).

 

The DEX differentials get mediated at least slightly if the lower DEX characters have higher defenses, which is rarely, if ever, the case with lower EGO characters!

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I've long felt characters should get a basic level of Ego DEF automatically from EGO just as STR gives them PD and CON gives then ED.

[BNakagawa]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

While existing characters can be built to be non-abusive and balanced, all it takes is one person with an adjustment power and all that goes out the window.

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I've long felt characters should get a basic level of Ego DEF automatically from EGO just as STR gives them PD and CON gives then ED.

 

Even then, the balance wouldn't be completely restored, as almost every character in a superhero campaign would buy up their PD/ED (with or without powers), but they would still tend to not buy up their Mental DEF.

 

 

But, that's just my opinion. In my games over the last 25 years, special defenses, other than Sight Flash DEF (including Power DEF and Mental DEF), tend to be purchased reactively, or as part of a general character schtick, or not at all.

 

Funny how a player can justify Flash DEF with a pair of "Super Ray Bans" but the idea of having a small amount of Mental DEF is out of the question (until they are made into "mind puppet" by the mentalist of the week).

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I've long felt characters should get a basic level of Ego DEF automatically from EGO just as STR gives them PD and CON gives then ED.

 

What was that sound? Oh, mentalists everywhere retiring.

 

Really a few points of EGO def really put the hurt on mentalists mentalist--not that the rules aren't stacked against them anyway.

 

I still can't bring myself to run a 10 Ego hero (or 10 PRE for that matter) unless his name will be Wet-my-pants-man.

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Another quick point... on the INT part of the thread. INT basically only portrays quick thinking. So, a character could be a "super genius" with only a 10 INT... he just is a ponderous thinker?

 

what?

[Dust Raven]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I still can't bring myself to run a 10 Ego hero (or 10 PRE for that matter) unless his name will be Wet-my-pants-man.

 

Absolutely. I don't think I've played a superheroic character with less than a 15 in either since before I learned the rules. Heroic (without the super) usually end up with at least 13s in EGO and PRE, just because heroes should... well... be heroic. You can't really be average and be an action hero, even if you are a high average of 10. At least that's my opinion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Another quick point... on the INT part of the thread. INT basically only portrays quick thinking. So' date=' a character [i']could[/i] be a "super genius" with only a 10 INT... he just is a ponderous thinker?

 

what?

 

Yes, which is why I think it's perfectly reasonable to give Mechanon a 60 INT. He can still be melodramaticly devious to a literal fault and still have a brain that works so quickly nothing escapes his attention. Just because nothing escapes him doesn't mean he can't still draw a wrong conclusion once in awhile.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Stat inflation is relevant only in context to each individual campaign. If the average super has a 23 DEX' date=' then 33 or higher isn't really inflated. [/quote']

 

The math does not agree with you. It's significantly inflated.

 

A 33 Dex character will hit the average 23 Dex character 90.7% of the time whereas the average 23 Dex character will hit the 33 Dex character 25.9% of the time.

 

And what about the slightly one point lower than average 22 Dex character? 95.4% vs 11.6%.

 

I don't care what the relative defenses are, these are slaughters.

 

And if your theory is correct, your Dex 43 character had to be in an average 33 Dex campaign setting (and if so, would still mostly slaughter his opponents on average). If his opponents had an average Dex below 33, your PC was even more mathematically unbalanced. Might as well be playing a computer game with all of the cheat codes. IMO.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Another quick point... on the INT part of the thread. INT basically only portrays quick thinking. So' date=' a character [i']could[/i] be a "super genius" with only a 10 INT... he just is a ponderous thinker?

 

what?

 

He could, by dint of hard steady work have a high skill in an area, maybe a few areas.

 

 

But given the same amounts of XP, high INT-guy will probably be betterbe better--or spread out into more scienes than 10 INT guy because he didnt have to buy up each science skill.

 

However, if instead of a 23 int, 10 INT guy bought 13 points of contacts and wealth, maybe he wins the big research contract after all. Take that smarty-pants!

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The math does not agree with you. It's significantly inflated

 

A 33 Dex character will hit the average 23 Dex character 90.7% of the time whereas the average 23 Dex character will hit the 33 Dex character 25.9% of the time.

 

And what about the slightly one point lower than average 22 Dex character? 95.4% vs 11.6%.

 

I don't care what the relative defenses are, these are slaughters.

 

Well, when Superhuman reflexes meet merely human (even if exceptional) reflexes, one shoudl dominate the other.

 

And if your theory is correct, your Dex 43 character had to be in an average 33 Dex campaign setting (and if so, would still mostly slaughter his opponents on average).

 

Thats supposing a flat 10 point spead exists betrween all different power levels of campaigns.

 

 

If his opponents had an average Dex below 33, your PC was even more mathematically unbalanced. Might as well be playing a computer game with all of the cheat codes. IMO

 

Math isnt the only factor of balance. Buying +3 of combat skill levels makes any character unbalanced, by the same assumption.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Even then' date=' the balance wouldn't be completely restored, as almost every character in a superhero campaign would buy up their PD/ED (with or without powers), but they would still tend to not buy up their Mental DEF.[/quote']I'm just shooting to make it a little more balanced. The 3 or 4 points of Mental DEF that would be gained by a typical hero's EGO would take a bit of the edge off mentalists.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The math does not agree with you. It's significantly inflated.

 

A 33 Dex character will hit the average 23 Dex character 90.7% of the time whereas the average 23 Dex character will hit the 33 Dex character 25.9% of the time.

 

And what about the slightly one point lower than average 22 Dex character? 95.4% vs 11.6%.

 

I don't care what the relative defenses are, these are slaughters.

 

And if your theory is correct, your Dex 43 character had to be in an average 33 Dex campaign setting (and if so, would still mostly slaughter his opponents on average). If his opponents had an average Dex below 33, your PC was even more mathematically unbalanced. Might as well be playing a computer game with all of the cheat codes. IMO.

This isn't a game about math; it's a role-playing game. My 15 years of experience with my DEX 43 character does not match your theory.

 

Just as a point for consideration, it hardly matters if a character hits even 100% of the time if the damage delivered can't hurt the opponent. See if fighting a brick whose defenses stop all but 1 or 2 points of damage delivered with each hit, especially since said brick just needs one good roll to end the fight in a single blow. Yes, my character is effective in a fight. OTOH, she doesn't spend any less time face down than any of her teammates. So either your theory is wrong, or my GM's (all 4 in our campaign ) have somehow managed to bypass it.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

This isn't a game about math; it's a role-playing game. My 15 years of experience with my DEX 43 character does not match your theory.

 

Uh huh. Regardless of your claim here, the math is still important. 3D6 results in a very small set of possible numbers and an even smaller set of likely numbers.

 

Just as a point for consideration, it hardly matters if a character hits even 100% of the time if the damage delivered can't hurt the opponent. See if fighting a brick whose defenses stop all but 1 or 2 points of damage delivered with each hit, especially since said brick just needs one good roll to end the fight in a single blow. Yes, my character is effective in a fight. OTOH, she doesn't spend any less time face down than any of her teammates. So either your theory is wrong, or my GM's (all 4 in our campaign ) have somehow managed to bypass it.

 

And I bet they had to go out of their way to do it.

 

Why don't you illustrate your point by posting the type of attacks, number of attack dice, OCVs (with average modifiers), DCVs, Defenses, and SPDs of all of the PCs in that group and let the readers here decide?

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Yes' date=' which is why I think it's perfectly reasonable to give Mechanon a 60 INT. He can still be melodramaticly devious to a literal fault and still have a brain that works so quickly nothing escapes his attention. Just because nothing escapes him doesn't mean he can't still draw a wrong conclusion once in awhile.[/quote']

 

Exactly!

 

It seems very reasonable to me to give Mechanon such a high INT... he is a robot after all! Whether or not a computer brain is really more intelligent than a human, it certainly can process things faster. Probably because the human brain is distracted by things like breathing.

 

Oh, wait... was I channeling Mechy again?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

And I bet they had to go out of their way to do it.

Gee, I thought GM's were supposed to design scenarios and opponents for player characters. I don't consider a fundamental task of being a GM to be "going out of the way." I do the same for their characters when I GM.

 

I rate my character (and more importantly, so do my co-players/GMs) my PC at about the middle of the team in combat effectiveness. And that's despite the fact she has more XP than any other PC, since she's the only character who has been in continuous play since our campaign began in 1992. Since I don't consider combat to be her most important aspect, less than half of her 78 XP has gone towards increasing combat power.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I'm just shooting to make it a little more balanced. The 3 or 4 points of Mental DEF that would be gained by a typical hero's EGO would take a bit of the edge off mentalists.

 

Of course, there are many who feel that the edge of a mentalist isn't all that sharp.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Gee, I thought GM's were supposed to design scenarios and opponents for player characters. I don't consider a fundamental task of being a GM to be "going out of the way." I do the same for their characters when I GM.

 

I rate my character (and more importantly, so do my co-players/GMs) my PC at about the middle of the team in combat effectiveness. And that's despite the fact she has more XP than any other PC, since she's the only character who has been in continuous play since our campaign began in 1992. Since I don't consider combat to be her most important aspect, less than half of her 78 XP has gone towards increasing combat power.

 

I noticed that you avoided the real challenge in my post.

 

As skeptics of UFOs with visiting aliens say: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

78 XP in 15 years? Guess you don't play her that often.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Uh huh. Regardless of your claim here, the math is still important. 3D6 results in a very small set of possible numbers and an even smaller set of likely numbers.

 

And the small matter of numbers found from a base Cv to Cv comparison dont establish a lack of balance, or balance to begin with, without taking into consideration countless other factors (many of the subjective)..making the math a relatively minor player in determining what is, and isn't balanced.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

As skeptics of UFOs with visiting aliens say: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

 

Right--so we're still waiting on how math alone establishes a level of balance between two dex comparisons considering all of the other matters that go into another character. When you can somehow eliminate or null out all other factors and show the math alone determines the balance, we'll be waiting breathlessly.

 

 

 

78 XP in 15 years? Guess you don't play her that often.

 

Depends how often sessions go with giving experience. A lot of factors could be in play here (XP points are given out less than direct GM modifications of the character)--who knows.

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I think what KarinsDad is saying, while possibly a little on the strong side, is not invalid.

 

CV 11 vs CV 8:

• CV11 hits CV8 on a 14 or less, or 91% of the time.
  
• CV8 hits CV11 on an 8 or less, or 26% of the time.

That works out that CV11 hits approximately 3.5 times as often as CV8 does. All else being equal*, that means that CV8 has to do about 3.5 times as much damage on average as CV11 does (whether that is achieved by more powerful attacks or DEF, or a mixture of the two, is up to the GM). You absolutely can set things up so that this differential exists, of course.

 

*Yes, perhaps the CV8 character has more noncombat utility, can move faster, or whatever - there are a number of factors - but that doesn't make the comparison invalid, just harder.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I noticed that you avoided the real challenge in my post.

I don't feel like spending an hour assembling all that data to refute what I think is already weak reasoning on your part. Perhaps at some point I'll essay it if I'm bored.

 

How often we play is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I don't feel like spending an hour assembling all that data to refute what I think is already weak reasoning on your part. Perhaps at some point I'll essay it if I'm bored.

 

How often we play is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

I've always thought she sounded intriguing. It would kind of fun just seeing her but if its a big trouble forget I said anything. I wouldn't bother just for the point.

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I'm not saying this well (this is the 4th rewrite)

 

Because of the bell curve system there is a system of diminishing gain. As such when there is a great difference in CV there is very little gain in actual hitting. The only (Considerable) advantage of having a dex of 41 is when you face the guy with a Dex of 35, not the guy with dex 18