What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Again assuming KarinsDad's math is correct' date=' with +9 DEX, you'll get hit about 25% of the time, and you'll hit them 90% of the time. Then remember Skill levels and Martial Manuvers. Defensive strike adds +2 or +3 to DCV, you've accomplished the same thing without having to blow anyone out, and still saved enough points to make a character instead of a combat monster.[/quote']Apparently you think a character is what's printed on paper rather than what's roleplayed. I'll stack my character (as opposed to mere numbers) against anyone's.

 

EDIT: You seem unaware that different campaigns can legitimately operate under different paradigms than you seem comfortable with. Zl'f can't afford to get hit 25% of the time - Her 12 PD/12 ED and 18 CON means that any average hit of 9d6 or higher will Stun her. 9d6 is only 75% of the campaign average attack of 12d6. It's no less artificial to attack her only with opponents that do 8d6 or less than it is to have high CV opponents; and attacks that low will hardly (if at all) bother most of our team. She also does less damage per attack than any other character. That's the balancing factor.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

It won't surprise you to know that Fezzik was designed by Mentor to fight our team brick Silhouette, not Zl'f.

 

Shh! No one wanted actual information pertinant to the camapign. Thsi is about making sweeping judgements based of fragmentary glimpses of a character, after all!

 

His extra levels (and a really good roll) meant he nabbed her even when she was doing a full blown Martial Dodge (DCV 19 at the time)!

 

So, how is she liking those area effect accurate attacks? Or anythign called knockback and the attacks that come after that?

 

I havent caught her flash defense..but its not just enough is it?

 

Honestly, if I only cared about pure combat effectivenss and not character I'll trust to Defenses to get me through before DCV..too many situational ways to make a DCV become meaningless.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Maybe I should have just built Zl'f with 100 points of defenses defined as "Missed Me!" That might not have upset her critics as much.

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

*Taps mic* Is this thing on? This is my last post on the subject, because people seem to think I'm saying Zlf specifically is unbalanced. No matter how many times I say it people can't be bothered to actually read what they are responding to, so for the final time, this is my argument, and has been from the start:

If one character has an ability WAY off the charts compared to all the other PC's it will cause problems. Trebuchet is the one that offered Zlf up as an example saying she was way off the charts and doesn't cause problems (although every post after that has been an attempt to convince me she really isn't off the charts, which leaves me confused why she was brought up in the first place, but welcome to the Internet Forums I suppose).

 

The other part of my argument is that limits set a benchmark removing the need to go off the charts to get a certain feel, and no one has convinced me otherwise (although in all fairness, I'm not really sure anyone has tried to, instead focusing on the example rather than the issue itself, but again, welcome to Internet Forums).

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

*Taps mic* Is this thing on? This is my last post on the subject, because people seem to think I'm saying Zlf specifically is unbalanced. No matter how many times I say it people can't be bothered to actually read what they are responding to, so for the final time, this is my argument, and has been from the start:

If one character has an ability WAY off the charts compared to all the other PC's it will cause problems. Trebuchet is the one that offered Zlf up as an example saying she was way off the charts and doesn't cause problems (although every post after that has been an attempt to convince me she really isn't off the charts, which leaves me confused why she was brought up in the first place, but welcome to the Internet Forums I suppose).

 

The other part of my argument is that limits set a benchmark removing the need to go off the charts to get a certain feel, and no one has convinced me otherwise (although in all fairness, I'm not really sure anyone has tried to, instead focusing on the example rather than the issue itself, but again, welcome to Internet Forums).

It appears you aren't reading any better than you seem to think anyone who disagrees with you is. All I have stated is that Zl'f has a very high DEX (although I don't believe I used the term "off the charts") and is not unbalanced in our campaign. Had she significantly higher defenses and attacks in addition to that high DEX, that would probably be unbalancing. It's not the DEX (or any other single Power or Characteristic) in and of itself that creates a potential imbalance, it's the synergy of the entire character's build.

[Comic]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Sorry you're not posting this thread, because you've left me with questions I can't answer without your input.

 

Characters with an ability WAY off the charts compared to others don't have to cause problems, in my experience. Maybe there's something different in your approach, if it often does for you?

 

With an even semi-thoughtful GM, a halfway decently designed campaign, villains that aren't just shooting gallery targets, and somewhat teamly allies, the uses of extreme abilities generally turn into high points of gaming sessions I've been in.

 

I still laugh, for example, at the time someone's PC used his super-Concealment skill and shadow powers to hide a thug so well he was never found again. And yet from time to time the thug's voice would be heard calling out, "Hello? Where am I?" at random for months afterwards. Sure, it was a you-had-to-be-there thing, but we all thought it was funny.

 

Isn't abilities that are way off the charts one measure of super?

 

I don't see the point of a game that can only handle people who are all super in similar ways to similar degrees.

 

If all of your Bricks, EBs, MA's, Speedsters and Mentalists are just subtle variations of the same thing, their powers are only DEF and attack, and that's all your interpretations of Champions allows you to use, you may have missed most of the game's best features, for my money.

 

What is it about the way you game that makes characters with off-the-chart abilities so much of a problem?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If all of your Bricks, EBs, MA's, Speedsters and Mentalists are just subtle variations of the same thing, their powers are only DEF and attack, and that's all your interpretations of Champions allows you to use, you may have missed most of the game's best features, for my money.

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I have to say, that sounds like a cool game you have going there trebuchet and incrbil.

 

(Sorry, I don't really have an opinion on the balance of it - too hard to evaluate in a vacuum, and from what I can gather it looks balanced enough anyway once you take the rest into account).

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I have to say, that sounds like a cool game you have going there trebuchet and incrbil.

 

(Sorry, I don't really have an opinion on the balance of it - too hard to evaluate in a vacuum, and from what I can gather it looks balanced enough anyway once you take the rest into account).

Yeah, it'd be cool if incrdbil and I could play in a game together - it appears our campaign philosophies are pretty close.

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

*Taps mic* Is this thing on? This is my last post on the subject, because people seem to think I'm saying Zlf specifically is unbalanced. No matter how many times I say it people can't be bothered to actually read what they are responding to, so for the final time, this is my argument, and has been from the start:

If one character has an ability WAY off the charts compared to all the other PC's it will cause problems. Trebuchet is the one that offered Zlf up as an example saying she was way off the charts and doesn't cause problems (although every post after that has been an attempt to convince me she really isn't off the charts, which leaves me confused why she was brought up in the first place, but welcome to the Internet Forums I suppose).

 

The other part of my argument is that limits set a benchmark removing the need to go off the charts to get a certain feel, and no one has convinced me otherwise (although in all fairness, I'm not really sure anyone has tried to, instead focusing on the example rather than the issue itself, but again, welcome to Internet Forums).

 

 

Arrowsmith is the only character in the group with investigative skills, he blows the rest out of the water in skills, by your logic, he causes problems. In my experience they have helped the team more often than not.

 

My experience with limits is that you soon get all the characters looking alot alike, with everyone getting really close to the maximum level

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The fact is' date=' I think she's INCREDIBLY effective, it would go a long way to explaining why 3500 of his 3900 posts mention her.[/quote']Wow, we're reaching new heights of maturity here. Meow!

 

I think I've identified your problem - you equate "not overbalanced" with "ineffective." Nowhere have I ever said or insinuated that Zl'f is not effective in combat; in fact she's quite capable. She's just not as übereffective as you seem to think she is. Her effectiveness dovetails perfectly with her teammates'.

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I could post her easily enough' date=' but at this point I suspect it'll just be grist for the anti-DEX mill that seems to have arisen. If you're genuinely interested I'd be happy to e-mail you a copy of her hdc file; just PM me.[/quote']

 

Aw, just go ahead an post her! Why not?!

 

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Now if the 20 INT character wants to raise his skills to 14- he has 2 choices: spend 20 points to raise each skill by 1 seperately' date=' buy a 5 point skill level (which only adds to one skill at a time), or spend 5 points to raise his INT to 25 (gaining +1 with all 10 skills for 15 points less than if he had baught up the skills themselves).[/quote']

[Emphasis mine] This is incorrect. Spending 5 points for a skill level gives you +1 with a group of similar skills' date=' such as DEX or INT. If you are adding +1 to one skill at a time, that costs 2 points for characteristic based skills or 1 point for KS, SS, and PS.[/quote']

Actually - no' date=' it only applies to [i']one skill at a time[/i]. Gideon is correct.

 

The 5pt Skill Level may be applied, in any given Phase to one from set of Skills.

 

+1 Dex Skill Levels may be allocated and applied to one DEX Based Skill in a Phase, it cannot be reallocated after the DEX Based Skill has been used in that Phase until your next Phase.

 

One Skill At A Time.

While my example is accurate, if what Ghost-Angel is referring to (which is correct) is what Gideon was referring to, then I misread his statement. I read it as him stating it took 5 points to raise one INT based skill by one point, not that 5 points could raise any INT based skill by one point, since Skill Levels can be changed as a Zero-Phase Action.

[Silbeg]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Oh, yeah... right. Sorry.

 

A-hem. Yeah, DEX bad... it's unbalancing and stuff... buy STR instead. It's... apparently really cheap.

 

 

And then use it to pick up a bus, so that you can use all that extra strength to spread your attack and hit the DEX 43 person.

 

That'll prove that DEX suxx0rzed!

 

Or... or... wait!

 

Get a 20d6 Energy Blast!! Then, all you have to do is spread it for 10 dice, dropping to a 10d6, but gaining +10 OCV!! That'll negate the DEX advantage!!!

 

Or....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You get my point, right?

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I'm on record as thinking that there is way too much stat inflation already.

This may be' date=' which I could easily see with STR, but even if there is stat inflation on STR, or CON, that doesn't justify why DEX has to be limited.

I'd give Spider-Man, the epitome of the high-DEX character a DEX of 33, maybe 36. And that would be the absolute limit for dexterity. Similarly with just about every stat except STR, which I would allow to go higher (insanely strong is okay). So the fact that no (or almost no) published characters have DEX above the official threshold doesn't bother me.

I'm a DC fan, so pardon me for not seeing Spider-Man as the epitome of high-DEX. He may be for Marvel, but for DC, the Flash is (or was, it's been a while) the fastest man alive. He's the icon that the other speedster characters pretty much emulate. In my opinion, I'd give the Flash between a 45-50 DEX. (I'd also have given Taipan around 35-45.) Flash is superhumanly fast. No one can train to get as fast as him and no (actual) drugs can get a person as fast as him. I still fail to see why HERO Games has a reluctance to make superhuman speedsters have a superhuman DEX.

 

(It also makes me wonder if maybe the writers think that stats that high are unreasonable' date=' but I don't know for sure).[/quote']If they do, I think their view is limited in a tunnel vision way. Other physical stats (especially Strength) go unchecked, but DEX is always reeled in. This makes no sense to me.

[Kirby]

The Great Ape comprehends!

 

The benchmark Hero Games choose to use for normal humans is so high that they're not creating characters who exceed the benchmark. It's almost as if Hero Games said the universe's ceiling was 30 rather then the normals' ceiling; and those are really 2 different things.

 

If your universe's Captain America is a 30 then there needs to be room for your Spiderman, and Nightcrawler, and the other superhumanly agile characters to exceed your pinnacle normal. That's not happening in the CU because the characters you'd think would be superhumanly agile are listed as 29 and 30s.

 

As I said above, this isn't an issue of stat inflation. It's an issue of publishing characters that meet and exceed the published benchmarks. If you have superhuman characters with 21+ dex in an NCM Champions game then there needs to be a like number of superhuman characters with a 31+ dex in a Standard Champions game. Otherwise the benchmarks are meaningless.

Yes, exactly.

 

On a related side note, I think HERO Games should lower INT, EGO, and PRE Superhuman #s from 51 to 31. It would make for a better balance/scale, IMHO. And then at least there would be a handful who have surpassed superhuman INT...instead of none(?).

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The math does not agree with you. It's significantly inflated.

 

A 33 Dex character will hit the average 23 Dex character 90.7% of the time whereas the average 23 Dex character will hit the 33 Dex character 25.9% of the time.

 

And what about the slightly one point lower than average 22 Dex character? 95.4% vs 11.6%.

 

I don't care what the relative defenses are, these are slaughters.

The problem here is you aren't taking into account tactics, much less CSLs or defenses. If the 33 DEX character has 15 Def and an 8d6 attack, is it really a DEX slaughter if 33 DEX is attacking a 23 DEX with 30 Def and a 14d6 attacK? The 33 DEX will -on average- do 28 STUN, which won't get passed the defenses, while the 14d6 attack will -on average- do 42 Stun, or 27 past Defenses. Just this example shows that the high DEX isn't guaranteed victory (not even close).

 

This thread isn't about "high DEX means a more victorious character." The game isn't even about that. No one character build is the "end all." This thread is asking why does HERO produce less than 1% of characters with a superhuman DEX, INT, and/or EGO? Especially when that's the character's theme. Is it an unfounded fear? I have yet to see a rationale for it.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

78 XP in 15 years? Guess you don't play her that often.

This is irrelevant.

 

I had a character with 36 XP that I played over a 5 year period. Did I play other RPGs during that same 5 year period? Yes. Does that negate the 5 years of playing that character? No. Does that negate the 36 XP that I received? No.

 

In addition, you don't know how often the GMs give out XP. In my experience, we received XP about every 2-3 months, playing once a week. Your predisposition of pessimism has detracted you from the issue at hand.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

As skeptics of UFOs with visiting aliens say: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Right--so we're still waiting on how math alone establishes a level of balance between two dex comparisons considering all of the other matters that go into another character.

That is so repped.

[incrdbil]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Yeah' date=' it'd be cool if incrdbil and I could play in a game together - it appears our campaign philosophies are pretty close. [/quote']

 

Mine is to have fun. For everyoen to have fun. For no one to be generally ill-served overall, but realize everyone gets their time in the sun. Ti use a pretty darn good rules set to help peopler do what they want, while keeping it in check so no one intentionally or unintentionally does damage to the viability of the game and the loss of fun for everyone, but at the same time, try not to get lost in mechanics, math, and fretting about balance to the point we don't let some cool stuff happen..while keeping the complex rolling chaos that is a Champions campaign on a general course towards the satisfaction of the players and GM.

 

: phew :

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

You describe what happens in your gaming group a lot. I propose that your body of experience is deep but not necessarily very broad.

 

The conclusions you draw from playing a DEX 43 character for 15 years may not necessarily apply to anyone else's campaigns.

It applies to my experience. In fact, I've been in a game where the high DEX, high speed character was the least effective. It was in the 250 days and the "speedster" (really just a faster MA) had 7 Speed and 27 DEX. Everyone else had 5-6 SPD and 21-26 DEX. This speedster MA was ineffective. When my character died, I asked the GM if I could play a 6 SPD 32 DEX MA and was allowed (after I brought it down to 29 DEX). He became more effective than the Speedster and was soon holding his own in combat (just not on the night of his first showing - very embaressing). The other PCs had CSLs that put them on the same or even higher CV than my PC had, so overall, they were all balanced (with the exception of the Speedster MA).

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

If raw DEX scores are causing all this disputation' date=' I can't imagine what sort of issues Shrinking, Invisibility, Ranged Skill Levels + Distance, or "let the Mentalist deal with Jack B. Nimble" would cause. [/quote']Heh, no kidding. This is just part of what I don't understand. Take Fiacho for example. He has a 23 DEX (CV 8) + 2 All Combat Skill Levels (CV 10) along with +3 Overall levels (CV 13). Then he has martial arts which can add up to another +2 CV (he doesn't have a Dodge). I don't see why his build is acceptable, but creating a 39 DEX (CV 13) character with no CSLs is such a hard concept, or even creating a 33 with +2 CSL.

 

Taipan has 30 DEX (CV 10) w/+6 HtH CSLs. To match Fiacho's CVs, he'd have to spread his HtH three in offense, three in defense. Then, they have the same chance to hit each other, so the "Dex is overbalancing" isn't the issue.

 

What is there to fear with 31+ DEXs when there are CSLs, AoE, and Lightning Reflexes? (Not to mention that If Jack and Bob build identical characters down to the last 30 points and Jack puts his into +10 DEX and Bob puts his into +15PD/ED, Bob probably has a character that will survive combat more often).

[BNakagawa]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

This reasoning falls short. CSLs come into play. A PC with 30 DEX (spent 60 points) has the same CV as a PC with 20 DEX +3 All Combat skill levels (spent 54 points).

 

If the +10 DEX reasoning were an issue, then the plethora of 18 DEX characters made would void the creation of anyone with a 29+ DEX.

 

nonsense.

 

Nowhere is it carved in stone that all combat-worthy published characters are balanced. Many published characters are poorly designed. Some of them, purposefully so. (at least I hope so)

 

That being said, many character concepts are intentionally unbalanced.

 

Some are intentionally overpowered because they are intended to face entire groups of adversaries. Some are underpowered because they're intended to be punching bags.

 

Still, for the standard combatant, the range of 20-30 dex encompasses at least 90% of all published characters.

 

Ever wonder why?

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Yes' date=' we have a gifted group, but I refuse to believe we're unique.[/quote']No, no, it's true. You are unique. Just like everybody else.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

1) 8D6 attacks are supposed to have 16 PD/ED as the base defense (as per the guidelines in the book). By upping it to 20 PD/ED for the base (i.e. stopping over 70% of the damage)' date=' it skews the results.[/quote']Where is this stated? List book and page #, please. I find it hard to believe that HERO states 8d6 attacks are only supposed to be used on those with 16 PD/ED.

2) You also did not go by the guidelines for how much base damage 350 point characters do' date=' hence, drastically improving the DEF outlook.[/quote']Is his example invalid if applied to 150 or 250 point game? Or is your "math" only valid in a 350 game?

The other thing the game designers explicitly state is that DEF is something that should not be heavily boosted.

Where is it explicitly stated that "DEF is something that should not be heavily boosted"?