Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

[DarkGreen]

Hello all... I've finally convinced my D&D group to come to the side of truth and light (HERO obviously).

 

One thing I did find useful in DnD was the ability to look up monsters by relative difficulty so if the PCs do something unexpected and I need a monster I can find one.

 

Has anybody put together a rough list of the published monsters in a spreadsheet? I can come up with some offense and defense metrics, but don't want to re-enter all the data.

 

-Dark Green

[ghost-angel]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

In Hero, I've never found it that easy.

 

A 150 pt character could be easily outdone by a 75pt character who is optimized to kill.

 

That said, the back of HSB and MMM both have Monster Summary Tables listing in brief the majority of their combat abilities.

[Curufea]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

The best way to do it, I think is to work out where your PC's biggest strengths and weaknesses are - and compare the monsters to those to work out if they are difficult to defeat.

i.e. if your PCs don't have mental defences - any monster with an ego attack will be quite difficult.

[DarkGreen]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

The best way to do it, I think is to work out where your PC's biggest strengths and weaknesses are - and compare the monsters to those to work out if they are difficult to defeat.

i.e. if your PCs don't have mental defences - any monster with an ego attack will be quite difficult.

 

That's an excellent point and place to start.

 

I was thinking if I had the tables in the back of the books in an excel table I could compute columns for offensive and defensive effectiveness as a start. I know the point values don't do the trick (although it's better than earlier editions where giants and vermin had hundreds of points in size powers, those were the days ).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

You might get some use out of this online Combat Rating System for HERO characters.

 

BTW this webpage will show you how to save the program to your computer.

[DarkGreen]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

You might get some use out of this online Combat Rating System for HERO characters.

 

Wow Liaden, that's most excellent, nice linkage!

 

Now I just need the score for all the monsters

 

Also, lol at your title.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

In case you didn't see it, check out the second link that I added by edit.

 

And I don't exactly see you outclassing me in the face department.

[DarkGreen]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

In case you didn't see it, check out the second link that I added by edit.

 

And I don't exactly see you outclassing me in the face department.

 

Very cool, I can see the formula (AND it's a nice lesson in active html...)

 

Faces are over-rated.

[Frenchman]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

I made up a really quick and dirty way to evaluate a character's combat ability: OCV+DCV+0.5(rDEF)+0.25(DEF)+DCs+Movement= a number. If they have martial arts, add +4.

You can compare that number to other numbers and see how they stack up. It doesn't take speed into account, and extreme min/maxing can throw it off too, but it works well for the most part.

Oh, yeah, definitions.

OCV and DCV - The characters modified OCV and DCV using all combat skill levels that can be applied to one attack, but not using any particular maneuver.

rDEF - resistant PD + resistant ED.

DEF - NONresistant PD + ED

DCs - the number of damage classes done with the attack used to figure CVs above. Obviously, you should choose their typical/most powerful attack.

Movement - The number of inches of combat movement in their primary mode of movement.

 

Again, its Q&D, but it lets you gauge two opponents against eachother at a glance.

[Curufea]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

I'm not sure a single number is best - I'll have a look at compiling some lists.

Really you want max of PD, ED, EGO damage and defense for a turn (so multiply it by speed), OCV and DCV, with maybe a special icon for unusual attacks or defenses. So, seven numbers.

 

They can go here.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

I made up a really quick and dirty way to evaluate a character's combat ability: OCV+DCV+0.5(rDEF)+0.25(DEF)+DCs+Movement= a number. If they have martial arts, add +4.

You can compare that number to other numbers and see how they stack up. It doesn't take speed into account, and extreme min/maxing can throw it off too, but it works well for the most part.

 

You could get Hero Designer to do that for you...each character sheet could have that number generated automatically somewhere for you....

 

Doc

[Frenchman]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

You could get Hero Designer to do that for you...each character sheet could have that number generated automatically somewhere for you....

 

Doc

 

Thats an intriguing idea. Too bad I have to go to work right now.

[Frenchman]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

I also like Curufea's idea of us (the HERO community) compiling a database of relative threat level. But what would an "average" threat be for different point values and genres? Figuring out what an "average" 100-point beasty should have for attack and defense values may go a long way to getting a standard Threat Level agreed upon.

[DarkGreen]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

Thats an intriguing idea. Too bad I have to go to work right now.

 

That does sound cool. Did they release hero designer files on the bestiary / MMM ?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

But what would an "average" threat be for different point values and genres?

 

An average measure by itself would be meaningless. You'd have to also run the PCs through the same algorithm to compare them to the monster in question.

 

The 200 point Elementals and Demons from Valdorian Age are pretty scary to VA characters, who, unless they're all Conaned up, will need to figure out their weaknesses to defeat them. The same creatures are a challenge to a typical high fantasy party, and they're an appetizer for fantasy supers.

 

But, if some calculation says that they're, say, a 10 threat, then you can see that your party of VA thieves is a 4, your other VA group of Conan tributes is a 6, your Turakian party is an 8, and your Mythic Greece party-of-the-gods is a 16, and get some idea from that.

 

Situation can matter too. A giant spider is a lot scarier when you're scaling a cliff than it is when you're on a plain.

 

The best thing to do would be to compare CVs, compare party damage vs monster BODY and vice versa, and compare movement abilities, all with situation in mind. Multiples of a monster (a pack, a flock, a horde, what have you) would effectively be the same as an increase of damage and BODY of a single critter.

[Zorak1003]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

It would be a lot easier to evaluate character types with a number than monsters, in the HERO system. I suppose taking Dex, SPD and Combat Values into effect would help, as would comparing relative BODY and defenses... But really, you just have to KNOW that sort of thing.

 

(And frankly, the raw numbers don't even hold up in D&D- I've seen high level characters fail a saving throw and die from a low hit die monster's poisoned bite!)

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

It all rests in the GM's hands

 

Tuckers Koblods as an example for those of you with nuff' learnin'

[DarkGreen]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

The best thing to do would be to compare CVs, compare party damage vs monster BODY and vice versa, and compare movement abilities, all with situation in mind. Multiples of a monster (a pack, a flock, a horde, what have you) would effectively be the same as an increase of damage and BODY of a single critter.

 

Thank you Captain Obvious (his actual name)... but I would like to see a tool that lets the GM start out by going to some specific example creatures instead of undergoing the full exercise you describe for every possible monster on a regular basis. I'm trying to reduce my workload here.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

The problem with a generic tool is that it doesn't take into account the potential for wide variability between the different stats. For instance, say you rate some monster as an 8 because it's able to hit a lot but doesn't do a whole lot of damage. Now you're looking for a rating 8 monster for a particular encounter in your high fantasy game. You throw this monster in there, and after they dispatch it without blinking, you realize that it didn't stand a chance against their DEF 12 magical platemail, even though other rating 8 monsters challenge the PCs.

 

Two weeks later, you're running your modern supernatural game. You want something as a throwaway encounter, and since your characters usually go toe to toe with rating 12 guys, you use this monster. After combat is over, you realize the PCs are going to need a month of down time to recover, because although this guy doesn't do more than a couple points of BODY at a time, it was able to do multiple sweeps per phase and still hit every time.

 

Distilling it down to a single stat loses a lot of important information.

[Curufea]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

Very true - the Hero system is far less abstracted in combat than the D&D system. Hence you can't generalise easily (or possibly at all).

[Markdoc]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

Very true - the Hero system is far less abstracted in combat than the D&D system. Hence you can't generalise easily (or possibly at all).

 

I agree - Hero is so flexible, that distilling it to a single number - even if posisble - is likely to be pointless.

 

You can, however, do a quick survey to check suitability. Here's what I do:

 

1. I know the damage output of my group - average 1+1d6 HKA, max 2 1/2 d6

2. I know their maximum OCV range (5-13) and DCV range (4-10)

3. I know their average DEF (range 4-7 resistant, but not all over, 4-12 otherwise)

 

When I'm drafting a new monster in, I simply ask 4 questions:

 

1. If they hit it, can they hurt it? Answer: DEF 6 or less everyone can hurt it. DEF 10 or more only the biggest guy can and he usually won't. Double those numbers with regard to STUN damage.

 

2. Can they hit it? If it's DCV is 6 or less, everyone is going to get a hit in, if it's 10 or more only the martial artist will routinely tag it.

 

3. Can it hit them? Again if it has an OCV of 4 or less it's going to probbaly hit no-one, 8 or less, it stands a decent chance of tagging most of the group, and if 10 or over it's going to hit every time

 

4. Can it hurt them? If it's doing 3-4DC the answer is no, if it's doing 6-8 DC the answer is "some" and 9+ DC the answer is "pretty lethal".

 

Any monster that scores a "no" to either the first two questions and a "yes" to one of the second will be a bit of challenge, and if it also score an extra yes/no respectively, it's potentially nasty. Score "2 yes/2 no" and it's potentially lethal.

 

This can only ever be an approximation, since it takes no account of numbers of foes or of special abilities, but it allows you to roughly estimate how long a particular target will stay up in combat.

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

I'm currently working on a PHP script on my site to extract the necessary stats from hdc files - which should help automate the process.

[Frenchman]

Re: Difficulty ratings for Bestiary/MMM/etc...

 

That does sound cool. Did they release hero designer files on the bestiary / MMM ?

 

On the bestiary at least, I'm not sure 'bout the MMM (I have one but not the other)

 

An average measure by itself would be meaningless.

 

Very true. I thought of that right after I hit the post button, but was too lazy to correct it.

 

Situation can matter too. A giant spider is a lot scarier when you're scaling a cliff than it is when you're on a plain.

 

Another good point. Situation variables like that cannot really be taken into account when assigning a 'danger rating' to critters, unless perhaps that is their schtick.

 

I(And frankly' date=' the raw numbers don't even hold up in D&D- I've seen high level characters fail a saving throw and die from a low hit die monster's poisoned bite!)[/quote']

 

But the numbers give you an Idea of what to expect - we've all seen examples of characters and creatures succeeding with things that should have been totally out of their league.

 

It all rests in the GM's hands

 

Tuckers Koblods as an example for those of you with nuff' learnin'

 

I should rep you just for making me smile