Grimoire books content

[kridenow]

Hello there,

 

After having played Champions in its first or second edition, back then, I am now coming back to the HERO system in its 5th edition.

 

I am currently waiting for the Fantasy Hero book, after getting the Asian bestiaries.

 

My idea is to design a new game world, using the HERO system. Based on fantasy, probably quite high on magic, I am rather willing to drift away from the classical "spellbook" caster-types.

While I am only in the first stages of my thinking, I am not certain I need, or I would use (nor my players) a long list of spells.

 

I'd need more mechanical suggestions, interesting concepts, to help me on my design work than a list of spells.

I guess I could somewhat "reverse engineering" spells listed to get a clue about how to design some interesting magic but I'm not certain I truly want to do that (I'd probably be less reluctant if I was extensively familiar with the system, what I am not for now).

 

The main rulebook is already breaking in mechanical parts powers and like.

If the grimoires are using those rules to present many spells, while I don't deny its value, it might not be what I am looking for.

 

In other words, are the Grimoire books expanding on the spells/powers creation rules or are they mainly using them ?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Pierre

 

(I also imagine this question may be a bit premature considering I didn't read the Fantasy Hero book, which I don't have yet)

[Markdoc]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

I have to admit that for me the first Grimoire was so disappointing I didn't even consider buying the second - and I've bought almost everything fantasy-related Hero Games has put out.

 

Presentation is pretty good, but it's basically a list of spells and worse (from my point of view) heavily oriented toward the Turakian age setting (the only other book I didn't buy). The spells are mostly high fantasy-themed and there's a bias towards very high active point spells, which are not usable (or even affordable) in settings other than uber-fantasy. I did like the approach of presenting multiple versions of the spell, although a huge amount of space could have been saved by simply presenting the different versions once and then simply listing cost after each spell rather than presenting the same breakdown over and over again.

 

There's not great deal on designing magic systems (though that is addressed in the Fantasy Hero system to a reasonable degree). If you only need a relatively small number of spells and plan on running a game with high-powered magic, most of the staples are here and there are some interesting spells. But if that's not your cup of tea, I can't recommend it for broader use.

 

cheers, Mark

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Hmm, ok, seems I'm not really going to get much from (at least) the first grimoire there.

 

I am thinking about a setting "high on magic", ie : with very common magic, but not necessarily powerful.

The main reason why I don't need a catalog of spells is I'd probably end with all the common spell effects in fantasy and as I'd like to drift a bit from it, much of the material would end useless to me.

 

Also, I'm going to present the setting and the HERO system to my players, who never had any exposure to the system (at least, I remember quite well my days of Champions, almost two decades ago).

So, they will not be able to use an extended spell list, as they will only have vague assumptions of the merits and flaws of getting a 1d6 RKA vs a 4d6 EB.

 

Thanks for clarifying here.

If I can get some feedback about the second Grimoire from someone else now...

 

Pierre

[tancred]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Both Grimoires are primarily intended for use with the Turakian Age setting, as they are spell lists designed for the magic system in that setting.

 

I happen to like both of them, but then I'm prejudiced because I'm about to start a Turakian Age game.

 

It sounds to me like they won't help you that much, other than to possibly give you ideas for spells.

The UNTIL Superpowers database books are also good for that, if you want some clever write-ups to get you started.

 

But from what you've said, most of what you really want/need is in the magic section in Fantasy Hero.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

I would simply pick up the Fantasy Hero PDF, it has three methods for creating spells using the base Hero Rules.

 

The Grimoire books were built specifically using the magic system presented in Turakian Age. Though a little bit of effort could restructure them for other Fantasy styles and systems.

 

They are definitely good for ideas in either case.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Fantasy Hero, yes. I should have the book today or tomorrow.

I was curious about the Grimoire books because I am trying to gather material before going from vague concepts to actual notes and writings.

In other words, not ending with a new book and thinking "Oh, that's a great nice idea but I'd need to rethink part of the setting now to include it".

 

Thanks for replying, all.

I'm also continuing to browse the forums to see how people are discussing powers implementations, probably the best source to me, for now.

 

Pierre

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

kridenow, if you'd like a free source for discussion of HERO magic design considerations, plus examples of different magic systems, I highly recommend our board colleague Killer Shrike's High Fantasy HERO website.

 

And while Markdoc may be too modest to mention it, his Ultimate Grimoire also contains very good advice and guidelines.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Ahem, yes... I already spotted Killer Shrike website, by browsing these very forums. Thanks for underlining it, however.

I will also give a look at the Ultimate Grimoire site.

 

Both look interesting material to me.

(I am indeed starting to pile web links for later uses, see how people are considering mechanically breaking down things etc)

 

Thanks again

 

Pierre

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Additionally, you can look at my own d20 spell conversion project (Cleric 2 is going up shortly, tonight, most likely, if I can stop chatting long enough to drag up my list) and then onto level 3. They may be completely useless to you, but if nothing else it's a different take on my own "pure" interpretation of magic from that system into HERO.

 

The Grimoires aren't horrible, but they aren't great for my uses either. Any Ultimate book you pick up (including the upcoming UEP) is going to have at least 20+ pages of powers/talents/abilities in convertible format, if you're going for a different style of spell casting. And of course, most of us are HERO-heads anyway, so we're always content to lend a hand.

 

Welcome to the boards. Don't mind the NGD, they bite. Have some REP. Rep only starts to count once you've made 50 board posts outside of the NGD. I am the Lord Captain Thia Halmades. These are my peeps.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Nothing is useless for me as I am learning. My days playing Champions are so old I must relearn most and the HERO system was quite expanded since.

 

For now, I am digesting the myriad of options offered by advantages and limitations.

I miss a consolidated list in the main rulebook (or did I miss it ?).

 

So, I started by looking at the various conversion threads and websites (including yours). Seeing how people are tinkering with HERO rules to simulate well known (to me) game mechanics is helpful.

 

I am certain the Grimoires can be very good when they fit your needs. Currently, I am not sure I'd have much use of them.

The Ultimate Books look interesting. But there, I'm more concerned by redundancy and the fact they are aiming relatively clearly at the superhero theme.

For example, while I imagine I could get useful examples from the Ultimate Speedster or Brick, I'm pondering if most of the ideas developped in the books would serve me much.

 

But... still... who knows...

The fact a player character isn't wearing spandex doesn't mean he isn't some kind of superhero (even when wearing trenchcoat and having vampire fangs) so such rules suggestions might apply directly.

 

For now, my HERO collection is :

- the main rulebook

- Fantasy HERO

- Bestiary

- the two Asian Bestiaries (actually more for general asian resources)

- Star HERO (bcause I am considering adding some regular SciFi tropes to the setting)

- Pulp HERO (for fun )

- Equipment and Vehicles books

 

Pierre

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

For now, my HERO collection is :

- the main rulebook

- Fantasy HERO

- Bestiary

- the two Asian Bestiaries (actually more for general asian resources)

- Star HERO (bcause I am considering adding some regular SciFi tropes to the setting)

- Pulp HERO (for fun )

- Equipment and Vehicles books

 

Pierre

 

That's a pretty decent collection for your campaign (as it's been described so far, at least). The two stand-out additions I'd suggest are The Ultimate Mystic (it's still kind of superhero oriented, but it describes many real world systems of magical belief) and The Ultimate Martial Artist (useful in pretty much any genre, and not superhero oriented at all). You might want to check out Monsters, Minions, and Marauders to see what it has that might fit your game, but with three bestiary books already, it's not a high priority.

[tancred]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Let me second the call to pick up Ultimate Martial Artist, as quickly as possible. For a fun addition to any genre, this book cannot be beat.

You'll find yourself using martial arts just because they're fun.

 

I would also suggest the Ultimate Mentalist, and perhaps Ultimate Metamorph, especially for Star Hero.

Mentalist has made me re-consider allowing player characters to have mental powers again, when I had been finding them too overwhelming. It has an excellent section on campaigning with mentalists and mental powers.

 

Metamorph gives you more than you thought possible for shapeshifters, including ways to handle posession and body-switching. Also good stuff.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

I am currently eyeing the Ultimate Skill.

Getting the others from the Ultimate serie would be just flooding me with info for now. As said, I must have some sense of comprehension of the basics before looking elsewhere.

HERO itself isn't that complicated. But the combinations and interactions between the advantages and limitations are something I must be able to handle a bit first.

So I'd be able later to look at ideas and think "Ah nice idea ?!" and not "Uh... ok, if you say so".

 

But... uck... must... resist... ordering... more.

 

Pierre

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Ah and... I forgot.

 

About the Martial Artist, I'm perplexed. I don't know much about its contents.

I should try to look for reviews around, on those boards.

 

Pierre

[tancred]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

The Ultimate Skill is a GOOD read. It will give you adventure ideas, as well as make you more comfortable with ways to use the skills.

Letting your players read it will encourage them to buy more skills (this has actually happened in our group).

 

The Ultimate Martial Artist has everything you could want to know about using martial arts, in any genre.

It has dozens of write-ups of real-world martials, a bunch of fictional arts, and detailed explanations of how martial arts work in Hero.

It has rules for designing your own martial arts, creating new maneuvers, building special powers appropriate for martial artists, and how to use powers, Advantages, Limitations, and martial maneuvers together.

It has detailed explanations of every martial maneuver.

It has special rules for special cases (critical hits, weapon lengths, etc.).

It has pages of martial arts weapons.

It has a section on martial arts in non-martial arts campaigns (called Martial Arts in Other Genres).

 

There's a mini-review for you.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

I am still perplexed by it

It's very focused (as an Ultimate Guide should be) but I'm not certain I'd get much use of it with my players (Wait... I still must sell them the idea of plmaying HERO).

I love tactical combat (I come originally from the wargame side of gaming) but my players... not that much.

 

And ibcluding that level of details of my (let's hope) future HERO gaming might not be their teste and turn them off completely (ie : associating HERO with detailed combat rules, even if they are optionnal).

 

But thanks anyway.

 

Pierre

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

No, trust us on this.

 

Ultimate Skill is a must own.

 

So is Ultimate Martial Artist. Trust me on this. Your collection isn't complete without it. You might THINK it is. You might BELIEVE that you don't need it. But if you want tactically focused combat, then you need UMA, because every single maneuver in there lends itself to tactical gameplay.

 

Whether it's an all out attack (+2 OCV/-2 DCV/+4 DCs) or a trip attack, or a reserved defensive move, it's in there. Or, you can design your own maneuvers and abilities. And, this being HERO, your own martial arts abilities & powers if the mood strikes you.

 

Trust us on this. Buy it now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Ah and... I forgot.

 

About the Martial Artist, I'm perplexed. I don't know much about its contents.

I should try to look for reviews around, on those boards.

 

Pierre

 

Of the Ultimate Books ... Skill is the one I put at the absolute must own top of the list. Martial Artists is useful, and good, but second to Skill.

 

Reviews:

Ultimate Skill

Ultimate Martial Artist

Ultimate Mentalist

Ultimate Brick

Ultimate Metamorph (this one links to a thread and not RPG.Net because it isn't up on their site yet)

 

The Ultimate Series is one of the best tools available to Hero Gamers in looking for informatio on setting up a Game.

[Black Rose]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

My advice? Become reasonably comfortable with the main rule book. You don't need to be able to quote it or anything, but a certain degree of familiarity is key.

 

Start with Character Creation, then Skills, finally Combat. Once you know how to make a non-powered guy who can do some stuff and you know how to make him attack, defend, and move about a bit, then you can start to get "complicated." Look at the Talents; they are built using the Power system used by HERO. See how they took an idea - always knowing where you're going, or being able to overcome a detrimental environment - and built it. Then play with the Powers section. Go to Killer Shrike's homepage, and Susano's, and anybody else that has characters posted. See how they created their effects. I especially recommend Susano's as he has "popular media" write-ups there, and you can say, "Hey, I saw that in the movie! Cool."

 

Once you feel pretty confident with the system, pick up either Ultimate Martial Artist or Ultimate Skill. Personally, I prefer TUMA over TUSk, but that's me. If you have a friendly local game store that carries HERO, peruse the books there to see what you want next.

 

Welcome to the boards kridenow, glad to have you.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Speedster is also very good, but of limited utility (for me, I find Ultimate Vehicle indispensable). But then, I have an entire thread devoted to designing HALO vehicles, so it stands to reason, non?

 

Generally speaking, GA & I agree on which books to own. I'm just passionate about UMA, and I can't reasonably tell you why. :shrug: Some things just resonate.

[tancred]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

I think you can figure out that I'm pretty passionate about UMA, too, from the plug I gave it earlier.

 

But with a new group just starting with Hero, you don't need it yet. (You'll want it later, but we've already been over that.)

 

Stick with the basics of combat. DON'T try the Optional Rules yet, like Hit Location, Impairing/Disabling Wounds, and so on.

Concentrate on getting your players used to figuring out how to hit and roll damage.

I DO recommend using the Alternate Attack Roll formula (11+OCV-number rolled=DCV hit) from page 371 (Revised); it just seems to be easier for novice Hero players to grasp.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Stick with the basics of combat. DON'T try the Optional Rules yet, like Hit Location, Impairing/Disabling Wounds, and so on.

Concentrate on getting your players used to figuring out how to hit and roll damage.

I DO recommend using the Alternate Attack Roll formula (11+OCV-number rolled=DCV hit) from page 371 (Revised); it just seems to be easier for novice Hero players to grasp.

 

 

Shoot, that's easier for ME to grasp. I have it burned into my brain now as it is. That's the automatic combat resolution.

 

Me: Okay Jason, whaddya got?

 

Jason: I hit a DCV of 9 or less, Thia.

 

Done. Fabulous. Love it. Keeps "my" numbers marginally hidden and the resolution is dirt easy.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Hello again.

 

Things are... I was last week end at Paris (not far from my home) and entering a gaming store I found the Grimoire 2 for... hum... the euro equivalent of $US 3.50.

So, finally, I got this one.

 

I just superficially browsed over it and yes, it can be a source of inspiration but doesn't look what I need.

 

The whole thread finally convinced me what I am looking for is truly written over the various Ultimate books.

So, to the disappointment of my wallet, I decided to revel into carnal gaming and ordered the (almost) whole serie.

Almost... not the Martial Artist.

 

The main reason is the maneuvers in the main book look enough for me, for now.

Second, I am generally more interested by the tactical aspect of combat not from maneuvers and exact numbers to perform that or that action but from positioning, flanking, using the environment.

Lastly, the reference to existing martial arts, while appealing to someone who 1/ wants to get them into the game, 2/ wants to model fictionnal martial arts from them, is basically useless to me.

 

Still, being a completist by nature, I can't say I'll never get it... damn...

Not so long ago, I posted that I prefered to focus on what I have now...

 

Currently, I had a first reading of the main book. I believe a second one, still, wouldn't be useless, just to better grasp the various way to portray things with the HERO system.

The Ultimate Skill (when I have it and if the book doesn't end in Australia like my last order) is probably going to be my next reading.

 

I remember playing Champions... well... when was it... in 1986 ? ... and skills were only a little part of the game (which can be understandable by the superhero style we were playing, heavily focusing on powers).

I'd like now to give more importance to skills (probably by tieing powers to RSR limitations, but also by not leaving the powers dominate the way the game is played).

 

Thanks to you all, sincerely.

Finally, this thread isn't really anymore about Grimoires only...

 

Pierre

[ghost-angel]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Currently' date=' I had a first reading of the main book. I believe a second one, still, wouldn't be useless, just to better grasp the various way to portray things with the HERO system.[/quote']

 

I've read the main rules cover-to-cover six times.

Counting the numerous times I read, reread and gone over the rest of it I could safely say I've read the thing dozens of times. New nuances show up all the time, and the order I read sections in also affects how I think to put them together... never be afraid to constantly reread the rules.

[kridenow]

Re: Grimoire books content

 

Oh yes... I meant I have a good idea of how the system works now but a second reading before trying to do something practical would be a good idea.

 

But otherwise, yes, I never expected to read it only once and for all

 

Still no Ultimate Skill, grr...

 

Pierre