Hangliding and Hero

[MicroMike]

I'm going to be running a post-apoc. game, and one of the PC's wants a hanglider.

 

I know nothing about hangliding. How big are they? How much time to set up? Do you need any permits?

 

Should I build it as a vehicle, or just buy gliding OAF bulky and call it a hanglider. How much gliding should it have?

 

I looked in both Vehicle Sourcebook and Untimate Vehicle to no avail.

[Outsider]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Post-apoc, I doubt you'd need any permits.

 

A quick look online showed a sample hang-glider that weighted 60 lbs, with a 30 foot wingspan. They glide at about 90 mph & the record distance on a glide is ~400 miles.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

that sounds about average. I don't believe you need any kind of permit to own one but where you can fly is fairly well regulated. In the proper air currents they can stay airborne for quite some time (hours) by catching thermals (rising warm air). Not sure how I'd build one off hand, is there a glider built anywhere? TUV maybe?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Post-apoc, I doubt you'd need any permits.

 

A quick look online showed a sample hang-glider that weighted 60 lbs, with a 30 foot wingspan. They glide at about 90 mph & the record distance on a glide is ~400 miles.

 

Well, you can be sure the apocalypse has come and gone if you don't need hanglider permits any more. What will the world be coming to?

 

In answer to the actual question, the problem with building a HG with just gliding OAF (which would be my preferred 'simplest solution' route) is that the velocity then varies with the speed of the pilot, which just is not right.

 

They are easy enough to build as vehicles, but that is still a lot more complex than the simple 'power' route, although probably a better representation.

 

As a vehicle, you run into an immediate size/mass problem - I'd go with size 0, as the mass fits better as do the figured characteristics, and deal with the larger size as a physical limtiation (reduced DCV, easier to spot).

 

I'd leave STR where it is, buy DOWN the Body to about 6 and leave the SPD at 1: I figure a HG is less responsive than a normal human.

 

Velocity would be bought with gliding movement, but I think 90mph is a tad high - not far off terminal velocity - that is probably a controlled dive, so we can halve that for normal veocity - we need a 40-50mph top speed, maybe even less than that given wind velocity plays a part. Perhaps 8x NMC on 14" of gliding - that would give a top speed (without diving) of 41mph.

[Outsider]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

A little more looking confirms that that 90 mph is a maximum speed, not a 'cruising' speed, and that for a specific 'high performance' model of glider. More typical is 50 or 60 mph tops.

 

PS : it seems gliders have a ~5-10 minute assembly time, depending on the model.

 

 

All this is available just by searching on 'hang glider' or 'hang glider performance' and such.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Also remember that defenses should be limited to not protect the rider (unless he's attacked from above, I suppose).

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I'd buy it as:

 

5" Gliding, (5 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, 2 Real points

x8 Non-Combat multiple (10 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, Lim: Requires PS: Hangglider, with modifiers based on wind conditions (-5 flying against the wind, +3 with a strong wind helping); 3 Real Points

 

If he has a high speed, you might only need x4 non-combat multiple.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I'd buy it as:

 

5" Gliding, (5 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, 2 Real points

x8 Non-Combat multiple (10 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, Lim: Requires PS: Hangglider, with modifiers based on wind conditions (-5 flying against the wind, +3 with a strong wind helping); 3 Real Points

 

If he has a high speed, you might only need x4 non-combat multiple.

 

That is the problem with that approach though: it does not make a lot of sense that a 'vehicle' like a hanglider would have the velocity affected by the speed of the pilot.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Don't forget that it has a stall speed (which is about the same speed a normal can reach while running downhill).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_gliding

With each generation of materials and with the improvements in aerodynamics, the performance of hang gliders has increased. One measure of performance is the glide ratio. For example, a ratio of 12:1 means that in smooth air a glider can travel forward 12 meters while only losing 1 meter of altitude.

• Topless gliders: glide ratio ~17:1, speed range ~30 to >145 km/h, best glide at ~45 to 60 km/h
  
• Rigid wings: glide ratio ~20:1, speed range ~ 35 to > 130 km/h, best glide at ~50 to 60 km/h

Based upon the above data, I'd say purchase a vechile with:

12 STR (maybe as low as 10)

10 DEX

3 BODY

5 SPD

20" Gliding (if possible, give it a stall speed at about 5")

 

And that should about do it. At the minimum, the pilot would need the Transport Familiarity: Hang Gliders. To be good at it, I'd say also take PS: Hang Glider Pilot.

 

I don't have my books with me, so I can't be more specific (and less error-prone) than that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

SPD 5 seems mighty high: I am no expert, but I would not have thought a hanglidger that responsive?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I believe that it could be, but remember that it sill only has a DEX of 10.

 

Based on a 20:1 glide ratio (which is what 20" of Glicing gives), to get an "airspeed" of 60 kph meant a 5 SPD, which I didn't think outside the realm of possibility. It might be dropped to 4 SPD, but that would give the glider a speed of only 48 kph.

 

A hang glider is light (less inertia), so it doesn't take a lot to change it's vector. Also, going from "control lock" to opposite "control lock" is a matter of the pilot shifting his body (hung in a sling) about 3 feet, and can be done *extremely* rapidly.

 

EDIT: I am no expert either, but I have some small experience with aviation, and through that, aerodynamics.

[Edsel]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Keep in mind that all of the weight, speed, etc. given for hang gliders in this thread seem to be based on modern manufactured equipment. Nylon fabric, composite or aluminum frames, etc. If your characters are making their own from scrap in a post-apocalyptic setting they are unlikely to be able to find such choice materials. Their glider will probably be a bit heavier and not match the performance of a normal hang glider. It may be more fragile and harder to disassemble/assemble.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I believe that it could be, but remember that it sill only has a DEX of 10.

 

Based on a 20:1 glide ratio (which is what 20" of Glicing gives), to get an "airspeed" of 60 kph meant a 5 SPD, which I didn't think outside the realm of possibility. It might be dropped to 4 SPD, but that would give the glider a speed of only 48 kph.

 

A hang glider is light (less inertia), so it doesn't take a lot to change it's vector. Also, going from "control lock" to opposite "control lock" is a matter of the pilot shifting his body (hung in a sling) about 3 feet, and can be done *extremely* rapidly.

 

EDIT: I am no expert either, but I have some small experience with aviation, and through that, aerodynamics.

 

I suppose it is a trade off: you can get the 20:1 glide ratio right, or the responsiveness right, or compromise on both.

 

At least until Hang Glider Hero comes along

[MicroMike]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Based upon the above data, I'd say purchase a vechile with:

12 STR (maybe as low as 10)

10 DEX

3 BODY

5 SPD

20" Gliding (if possible, give it a stall speed at about 5")

 

And that should about do it. At the minimum, the pilot would need the Transport Familiarity: Hang Gliders. To be good at it, I'd say also take PS: Hang Glider Pilot.

 

I don't have my books with me, so I can't be more specific (and less error-prone) than that.

 

I think I'll build it as a vehicle, dropping the Spd 1 or 2 and increasing the Gliding to 30" or so. They can be smaller than I thought, fitting into a large 30-40lbs. backpack. Set-up/breakdown takes about 5 minutes. I'll post my build later, with thanks to the above design.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

At least until Hang Glider Hero comes along

 

Concealable Hang Glider Gadgets & Gear p134

 

quite possibly not realistic by any means, since it's a Power and not a Vehicle. But - well, there's something.

 

 

Personally I would just make it Inches Of Gliding; Stall Velocity, OAF - that way you're on the "pilots" reaction time completely.

 

Unless you're going to try and get into the whole "two people at once" aspect. Then things get messy that way.

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I'd buy it as:

 

5" Gliding, (5 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, 2 Real points

x8 Non-Combat multiple (10 Active Points), OAF, Bulky, Lim: Requires PS: Hangglider, with modifiers based on wind conditions (-5 flying against the wind, +3 with a strong wind helping); 3 Real Points

 

If he has a high speed, you might only need x4 non-combat multiple.

 

 

Would you not want a Transport Familiarity as opposed to a PS?

 

ie. TF: Hanglider instead of PS: Hanglider

[Outsider]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I believe that it could be, but remember that it sill only has a DEX of 10.

 

Based on a 20:1 glide ratio (which is what 20" of Glicing gives), to get an "airspeed" of 60 kph meant a 5 SPD, which I didn't think outside the realm of possibility. It might be dropped to 4 SPD, but that would give the glider a speed of only 48 kph.

 

A hang glider is light (less inertia), so it doesn't take a lot to change it's vector. Also, going from "control lock" to opposite "control lock" is a matter of the pilot shifting his body (hung in a sling) about 3 feet, and can be done *extremely* rapidly.

 

EDIT: I am no expert either, but I have some small experience with aviation, and through that, aerodynamics.

 

 

20" Gliding at SPD 5 gives 60 KPH and the right 20:1 glide ratio.... but that's at combat speed. I am not sure what the rules are about altitude loss while at NCM, but if the inches of Gliding bought represents the glide ratio (ie, you lose 2" of altitude per phase if moving at 2x NCM) then you could halve the SPD of the glider while maintaining the same speed and glide ratio.

[McCoy]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

20" Gliding at SPD 5 gives 60 KPH and the right 20:1 glide ratio.... but that's at combat speed. I am not sure what the rules are about altitude loss while at NCM' date=' but if the inches of Gliding bought represents the glide ratio (ie, you lose 2" of altitude per phase if moving at 2x NCM) then you could halve the SPD of the glider while maintaining the same speed and glide ratio.[/quote']

I think it would be reasonable to buy a hang glider with no NCM as well as a stall speed.

 

SPD 5 still sounds a little high.

[Outsider]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I'd be more inclined to buy it with no combat speed. I dont pictuire someone dangling from a hang glider being all that able to use their DEX derived DCV to any significant effect.

 

I dunno how much of a limitation that would be though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

I think it would be reasonable to buy a hang glider with no NCM as well as a stall speed.

 

SPD 5 still sounds a little high.

 

I'm not familiar with hang gliders in general, but if the glider is as responsive as its human pilot, it can practically have any SPD, can't it? Until the human is able to react faster than the glider, we haven't seen the limits of its responsiveness.

 

With respect to the NCM/combat speed issue, isn't the character's DCV already restricted by the vehicle's DEX? You'd need combat piloting to improve this.

 

At the end of the day, the important question is "how do you want it to work in-game?" If you're OK with a more cinematic game where the character can effectively make the hang glider dodge, Combat Piloting the hang glider may be acceptable.

 

As someone noted previously, you can also look to the materials - if it's been built from scavenged equipment, hides and wood, it's likely to have poorer performance than the best we can do with modern materials.

[MicroMike]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes

0 SIZE Length 1", Width 0.5", Area 0.5" Mass 100 kg KB 0

13 STR 12- HTH Damage 2 1/2d6 END [3]

14 DEX 12- OCV 5 DCV 5

4 SPD 4 Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12

3 DEF

10 BODY

0" Ground Movement 6 -12 0"

0" Water Movement 2 -2 0"

0" Leaping 0 0 0" 20 Total Characteristics Points

 

Cost Powers END

24 Gliding 30"; Stall Velocity 5" (-1/4) 0

-3 DEF: Does Not Protect Occupant (-1/2) for up to 9 Active Points of DEF 0

 

Skills

9 Contortionist 15-

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 30

 

Total Cost: 50

 

This represents a top line hanglider that you could buy today. Top speed is 44 MPH combat/88 MPH NCM. My game starts pre-apoc, then BOOM then post-apoc:D

 

Contortionist to represent it breaks down into a backpack. Besides, I needed it to run 50pts, for mathamagical reasons.

 

LOL Hanglider Hero Thanks to all.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Heroic level characters don't pay points for equipment, which I would think this would be, and Superheroic characters don't have to pay for mundane stuff...

 

So I'm wondering why it matters what it costs?

[Outsider]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Supers don't pay for mundane equipment?

 

So I can make a character who routinely carries a .50 Sniper rifle (3D6K, +1 SM) that he doenst have to pay for?

 

 

Seriously, though, "supers and mundane equipment" is a weak spot in the genre rules. I don't want to bother with statting out and charging for every little thing (cell phones, Ford Tauri, home computers, toasters, etc) that a character might have, but declaring a blanket freeness for all mundane equipment seems off also. I would end up with some players designing characters to take maximum advantage of the free gear, and others bitching about how my game is biased against their concept.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Supers don't pay for mundane equipment?

 

So I can make a character who routinely carries a .50 Sniper rifle (3D6K, +1 SM) that he doenst have to pay for?

 

 

Seriously, though, "supers and mundane equipment" is a weak spot in the genre rules. I don't want to bother with statting out and charging for every little thing (cell phones, Ford Tauri, home computers, toasters, etc) that a character might have, but declaring a blanket freeness for all mundane equipment seems off also. I would end up with some players designing characters to take maximum advantage of the free gear, and others bitching about how my game is biased against their concept.

 

"Mundane" is usually defined as "anything a normal person in the real world can easily, and legally, obtain." - and usually excludes weapons. Especially high powered ones.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hangliding and Hero

 

Supers don't pay for mundane equipment?

 

So I can make a character who routinely carries a .50 Sniper rifle (3D6K, +1 SM) that he doenst have to pay for?

 

 

Seriously, though, "supers and mundane equipment" is a weak spot in the genre rules. I don't want to bother with statting out and charging for every little thing (cell phones, Ford Tauri, home computers, toasters, etc) that a character might have, but declaring a blanket freeness for all mundane equipment seems off also. I would end up with some players designing characters to take maximum advantage of the free gear, and others bitching about how my game is biased against their concept.

 

"Mundane" is usually defined as "anything a normal person in the real world can easily' date=' and legally, obtain." - and usually excludes weapons. Especially high powered ones.[/quote']

 

Realistically, every GM draws a line somewhere on what constitutes "mundane equipment", how available it is and who has to pay points for it. I prefer to think of it as "everyman equipment". Everyone can get acess to it, there's no character point cost and there's no skill required to use it.

 

Supers don't pay for a lot of things. They get information from TV, radio, internet and newspapers, but they don't pay any points for this access. They can probably do math, but they didn't pay for Lightning Calculator, Extra Time. They can likely access a calculator to speed up the process, but again no points paid.

 

I think the sniper rifle crosses the line. On the other hand, I can see a game where it might be allowed. Of course, since the character spent no CP, he needs the appropriate Weapon Familiarity to use it without OCV penalties. He also needs the skills to maintain it, otherwise it will gradually fall into disrepair, just like any Real Weapon that isn't properly maintained. He'll need to explain to me how it gets from his home to the site of the battle - it's not like you can just carry those around on the street! Where does he carry it when it isn't in use? Real weapons don't conveniently fit in utility belt pockets, or get disassembled and reassembled in a couple of seconds. Where does he get his ammunition? He needs to acquire it through real world channels, which makes a convenient mechanism for tracing his secret ID. Ballistics tests work on real weapons, so it's pretty easy to confirm who he shot - a villain suing for excessive force could be interesting. Of course, as a real weapon, it's Independent. It can easily be taken away, perhaps impounded as evidence in a crime. Make sure you keep it dry and clean. It also breaks like a real weapon. You'll need to work out how you acquire a new one if the old one gets damaged or destroyed. Now, Foci are generally fully functional or they aren't, but Real Weapons have all sorts of parts that may be damaged when the object itself is still workable. That rifle loses a bit of utility when the sights are damaged, for example.

 

If it's mundane equipment, it comes with all the drawbacks we face in the mundane world.