Triggered Recovery?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Question:

Can you activate (Turn On) an Energy Blast Power without ending your turn (Attack Action)?

Yes: by applying the Trigger Advantage.

 

Can you activate (Turn On) a REC Stat Power without taking time (1/2 Phase Action)?

If we're being consistant with the rules, then yes: by applying the Trigger Advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

...

 

If we're being consistant with the rules, then yes: by applying the Trigger Advantage.

 

 

Consistent by whose interpretation of the rules? Yours or the current game designer??

 

According to the latter the answer is no.

see this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58875

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Yes: by applying the Trigger Advantage.

So the answer is no, since your answer presumes that an unmodified Energy Blast Power requires a modifier to change the default: Activation = Attack Action (the effect occurs immediately)

 

If we're being consistent with the rules' date=' then yes: by applying the Trigger Advantage.[/quote']

In this case, since the rules specifically state that turning on a power (in general) is a Zero Phase Action and since the REC Stat, even purchased as a power, doesn't have an automatic immediate effect (the effect occurs post 12) when it is activated, it would seem the answer is actually no: Activation <> Half Phase Action

 

So it would seem that there is a distinct mechanical difference between the two as far as activation since there is a measurable difference in effect during game play.

 

Characteristics are very odd indeed when compared to powers. Hmmmm....

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Rapier]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Characteristics are very different than Powers.

 

What is the effect of a Triggered EGO or a Triggered CON?

 

REC (the characteristic) has no game effect in and of itself.

 

What the OP wants to do is Trigger a Recovery. Can you Trigger a Set or Brace? How about Taking an Extra Phase? Can you Trigger 'Extremely Appropriate Action' to grab an extra couple of dice of PRE Attack? Of course not. These are concepts that exist beyond the Power Construct fold. Recoveries are 'actions' that are separate from the REC characteristic. When you take a Recovery, you regain END and STUN equal to your REC characteristic.

 

If you want to "Trigger a Recovery," the appropriate Power build is a Succor or Aid (Only to Starting Values). Triggering REC makes no sense.

[braincraft]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

The morbidly ironic thing about this argument is that the proper constructs actually work better and are much cheaper than the explicitly wrong one in contention.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well, I won't be repping him. I think he made the wrong call.

 

EB activates whn you use it.

Recovery activates when you use it.

 

Trigger can cause an EB to activate when a specified condition occurs.

Why can't Trigger cause Recovery to activate when a specified condition occurs?

 

It may not be the best way to buy this ability, but it seems like a perfectly valid one to me. I don't see the harm in allowing more than one way to build something in HERO. In fact it's a good thing!

 

I leave it to that other system to constantly repeat the mantra of "No, you can't do that."

HERO is supposed to say, "Yes, you can do anything, as long as you pay for it."

 

 

The difference to my mind is that 'taking a recovery' entails more than simply turning on your REC. I don't doubt that it can be argued that a triggered EB entails more than just activating your EB - it needs to be aimed etc, although there still seems to be a difference to my mind - a REC is a full round action that requires, basically, that you do nothing else. Theoretically you could take a REC any phase when you are doing nothing else, without having to activate your REC, your REC is running...but simply 'doing nothing' is not the condition that allows you to take a recovery. OTOH if you activate your EB, whether by trigger or otherwsie, well, it goes off - something happens. I may not be explaining myself very well - it is early - but I feel the bones of an answer in there somewhere.

 

 

The other point to consider is that REC is already on.

 

Been having a discussion on a different thread about how many instances of a constant or persistent power you can have running at once and the answer is not clear - some things you can clearly activate more than once, for instance force wall (although the precise effects if you do need a little polishing). Some things you clearly can't, like force field. This may be an intersting candidate for insertion into that discussion...

 

Finally, and most persuasively, to my mind, this does have a taint of metagaming to me - it allows recoveries in defiance of the system requirements as to when and how often they can be taken. I know there are other powers that have a similar effect, but not the same effect. Effectively it is an in-game construct that allows you to re-write the rules, and whatever trigger normally does, with other powers, it does not modify the rules, or normal game parameters, except within its own context. Triggering REC to this end goes outside the game and into the mechanics, and that does not feel right to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

There's generally no point to using Trigger on characteristics or any other power that's on all the time or almost all the time (just use a conditional disadvantage)' date=' and there's absolutely no point to buying STUN that only works if you go below 0 STUN (that works exactly the same as if you'd just bought more STUN)...................[/quote']

 

 

This is clearly quite right (and my response clearly quite wrong), as Steve confirmed int he Q&A.

 

You COULD build +STUN with a time delay after passing out though - I think that is a significant enough limitaiton (extra segment -1/2), because then the unconsciousness effects WOULD kick in before the added STUN did.

[pinecone]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Characteristics are very different than Powers.

 

What is the effect of a Triggered EGO or a Triggered CON?

 

REC (the characteristic) has no game effect in and of itself.

 

What the OP wants to do is Trigger a Recovery. Can you Trigger a Set or Brace? How about Taking an Extra Phase? Can you Trigger 'Extremely Appropriate Action' to grab an extra couple of dice of PRE Attack? Of course not. These are concepts that exist beyond the Power Construct fold. Recoveries are 'actions' that are separate from the REC characteristic. When you take a Recovery, you regain END and STUN equal to your REC characteristic.

 

If you want to "Trigger a Recovery," the appropriate Power build is a Succor or Aid (Only to Starting Values). Triggering REC makes no sense.

 

Yeah, I gotta agree there ...other wise I want to buy a Trigger for my Haymaker saying "It's clobbering time!" So I'd build the "extra Recovery" as a simple Heal with a trigger...unfortunately the dude's build work let that be...so more thinking....Extra stats with a trigger is wonky...maybe a lim? +15 Stun +15 END only when KO'd -1/2..???Ummm...+1 phase delay?????

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Consistent by whose interpretation of the rules? Yours or the current game designer??

 

According to the latter the answer is no.

see this thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58875

Consistent by the definition of the word "consistent." Consistent with the normal and obvious function of the Trigger Advantage rules. No extra interpretation is necessary.

 

I have read Steve's holy pronouncement. It does not carry any weight with me. Steve is not God. Steve is not the Pope. His word is not law. And even if we all agreed that his word *is* holy, it still would be inconsistent.

 

That's OK. Steve's been wrong before, and I'm sure he'll be wrong again. He's also been inconsistent before. No biggie. I'm not upset about it. I just point it out.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

So the answer is no, since your answer presumes that an unmodified Energy Blast Power requires a modifier to change the default: Activation = Attack Action (the effect occurs immediately)

 

In this case, since the rules specifically state that turning on a power (in general) is a Zero Phase Action and since the REC Stat, even purchased as a power, doesn't have an automatic immediate effect (the effect occurs post 12) when it is activated, it would seem the answer is actually no: Activation <> Half Phase Action

The answer is precisely what I said it was. Don't put words in my mouth. Buying an EB also "doesn't have an automatic immediate effect" either. That's precisely what the Trigger Advantage does - it causes an "automatic" effect. Isn't that what we're talking about?

 

A Post-12 Recovery is not an action at all. It simply happens every 12 seconds to reflect the body's natural maintainance of itself. Sort of like a Trigger that resets automatically every turn, but that isn't my argument.

 

A regular Recovery is an action, which must be intentionally initiated by they character, just like firing an EB. It requires a full-phase action, where the EB requires a phase-ending action.

 

When Trigger is applied, the intentional initiation is no longer required - only a certain triggering condition has to be met - and the action (full-phase or attack) is no longer required.

 

So it would seem that there is a distinct mechanical difference between the two as far as activation since there is a measurable difference in effect during game play.

No there isn't. The only mechanical difference is that one is a full-phase action and one is an attack action. If Steve had said, "Since the Trigger in this case would replace a full-phase action instead of just an attack action, the Trigger should be +1/4 more of an Advantage," I would have had no problem with that.

 

Characteristics are very odd indeed when compared to powers. Hmmmm...

Only if you chose to make them so. I don't. Simplicity. Consistency.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Characteristics are very different than Powers.

No they aren't. They're just placed in a separate section of the book for clarity, convenience, and simplicity. There's another game system we all know where characteristics are different from powers. HERO isn't it.

 

What is the effect of a Triggered EGO or a Triggered CON?

Whatever you buy it to be. A few uses off the top of my head would be: extra EGO roll to break out of a mental power, extra CON roll to resist an illness, ...

 

REC (the characteristic) has no game effect in and of itself.

It doesn't? Wow! I guess I'll sell mine down to 0 then! Woohoo! 16 free points!

 

What the OP wants to do is Trigger a Recovery. Can you Trigger a Set or Brace?

I don't see why not. Brace would be 2 Range PSL's (6 points), apply Trigger to that. The utility of doing so would be somewhat limited since applying PSL's doesn't take any extra time. Set would by +1 OCV CSL, and again the benefit of Trigger is limited since you could just buy the CSL and use it anyway. But there's no reason you couldn't do it.

 

How about Taking an Extra Phase?

That's pretty much like what Trigger does already.

 

Can you Trigger 'Extremely Appropriate Action' to grab an extra couple of dice of PRE Attack? Of course not.

I'd agree there, but you could certainly buy Trigger on PRE itself.

 

These are concepts that exist beyond the Power Construct fold. Recoveries are 'actions' that are separate from the REC characteristic. When you take a Recovery, you regain END and STUN equal to your REC characteristic.

Would you say that a HtH Strike (say, a Punch) is an action separate from the STR characteristic? Would you say that an Energy Blast attack is an action separate from the EB power?

 

If you want to "Trigger a Recovery," the appropriate Power build is a Succor or Aid (Only to Starting Values). Triggering REC makes no sense.

I'd say Healing would be better than any of those options. But I'm not going to put arbitrary limits on someone else's concept. It's antithetical to the principles of the HERO System.

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

The answer is precisely what I said it was. Don't put words in my mouth.

And don't change my question which I put forth. I asked a very precise question, and you gave a very precise answer to a completely different question and acted as if you answered mine.

 

Buying an EB also "doesn't have an automatic immediate effect" either.

You've presented some very confusing things here (at least for me which isn't new).

 

Question: (Please don't change my question)

What is the difference between a Power that is turned on and a power that is turned off? (Please use Energy Blast and Darkness with no modifiers for the sake of discussion).

 

That's precisely what the Trigger Advantage does - it causes an "automatic" effect. Isn't that what we're talking about?

Actually, I think the Trigger Advantage simply allows you set up a power by taking the required action and time and have the effect occur later when a specific condition is met.

 

A regular Recovery is an action' date=' which must be intentionally initiated by they character, just like firing an EB. It requires a full-phase action, where the EB requires a phase-ending action.[/quote']

You can buy an Energy Blast Power and then activate it which by the base definition of the power which means the effect happens immediately.

 

You can't buy a Recovery Action, thus the comparison ends here. You can purchase the REC Characteristic as a Power though.

 

When Trigger is applied' date=' the intentional initiation is no longer required - only a certain triggering condition has to be met - and the action (full-phase or attack) is no longer required.[/quote']

Not quite. The action of the Power is required. The character took the action and required time when they set up the Trigger.

 

I now understand where you are coming from. No further discussion is needed.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Consistent by the definition of the word "consistent." Consistent with the normal and obvious function of the Trigger Advantage rules. No extra interpretation is necessary.

 

I have read Steve's holy pronouncement. It does not carry any weight with me. Steve is not God. Steve is not the Pope. His word is not law. And even if we all agreed that his word *is* holy, it still would be inconsistent.

 

That's OK. Steve's been wrong before, and I'm sure he'll be wrong again. He's also been inconsistent before. No biggie. I'm not upset about it. I just point it out.

 

Is there some reason that I am unaware of that the exact same argument can't be made about your interpretation of the very same rules?

 

There has to be a 'system default' from which all house rules then branch off from. Otherwise what's the point of new HERO users coming to this board to ask questions (mostly about how the system default rules work) when everyone's games have no common ground since each GM doesn't need to define any house rules but rather justs ignores the intent of the game designer at a whim?

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

There has to be a 'system default' from which all house rules then branch off from. Otherwise what's the point of new HERO users coming to this board to ask questions (mostly about how the system default rules work) when everyone's games have no common ground since each GM doesn't need to define any house rules but rather justs ignores the intent of the game designer at a whim?

I'll have to rep you later.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

And don't change my question which I put forth. I asked a very precise question' date=' and you gave a very precise answer to a completely different question and acted as if you answered mine.[/quote']

Well, if that's what you intended, then I'm glad I changed your original question, because it had nothing to do with the subject. And just to be clear, the subject, as I understand it, is Trigger, not the activation of powers without Trigger.

 

Question: (Please don't change my question)

What is the difference between a Power that is turned on and a power that is turned off? (Please use Energy Blast and Darkness with no modifiers for the sake of discussion).

No. It's too far off the subject, IMO. My basic question to you would be: What should determine whether Trigger can be applied to something or not?

 

In case it isn't already obvious, my answer to this question would be: Essentially nothing. In the spirit of flexibility, any construct can have Trigger applied to it. There's no reason to disallow a particular construct when a reasonable interpetation exists. If it grants too much utility for the price, then raise the price, but don't forbid it arbitrarily.

 

Actually, I think the Trigger Advantage simply allows you set up a power by taking the required action and time and have the effect occur later when a specific condition is met.

Unless you buy the Trigger so it resets automatically.

 

You can buy an Energy Blast Power and then activate it which by the base definition of the power which means the effect happens immediately.

 

You can't buy a Recovery Action, thus the comparison ends here. You can purchase the REC Characteristic as a Power though.

Apples and oranges. Power /= Action.

[schir1964]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well' date=' if that's what you intended, then I'm glad I changed your original question, because it had nothing to do with the subject. And just to be clear, the subject, as I understand it, is Trigger, not the activation of powers without Trigger.[/quote']

So basically, you saying that if you actually understood the intent behind my question, you wouldn't have answered the question. Fair enough.

 

BTW: The original post had to do with applying Trigger to a Characteristic, not a Recovery Action. The discussion then devolved into the differences between Characteristics and Powers and how that affects the Trigger. My interest was in how Characteristics were different than Powers for activation with Trigger being ancillary in that it must be deal with the differences when applied to a characteristic. You've made it clear that you don't follow the rules as written for your games. Again, fair enough.

 

No. It's too far off the subject' date=' IMO. My basic question to you would be: What should determine whether Trigger can be applied to something or not?[/quote']

As I said in my previous post. No further discussion is needed.

 

In case it isn't already obvious' date=' my answer to this question would be: Essentially nothing.[/quote']

Yes, I know. You've already agreed with the answers to my questions. Fair enough.

 

I think we're done here.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Well my original motivation was this, to regain Stun faster, not necessarily in bigger chunks (ie with higher REC) just more often. The reason for this was trying to build a Regeneration type model for Stun, since legally one cannot healing anything other then Body via Regeneration.

 

Id like to point out that there are some notable differences to the alternate methods people have listed compared to using to using REC to recover Stun/End. Firstly there is no cap on REC you can take a recovery action anytime you have an action and further it is a proper heal it restores permanently those points.

 

Aid/Succor methods only give temp points, those points fade and are limited by Max Effect (for Aid).

 

Healing also limited by Max Effect, thou the timer can be bought down to 1 Turn, thats the fastest it can go. Also is very Expensive AP wise since Red End 0, Persistent, Trigger and Decreased Reuse Duration are required. Also Max Effect cannot be increased.

 

+ Stun with limitation, these are 1 time gains, once added they cant get added again.

 

+Speed with limitation to Recover only, this one is interesting, due to the rules on Speed changing in combat thou youd lose your action once KO'd until such time as thou Phases matched, ie your first action wouldnt be until when you would normally go at your base Speed. And if you came out of KO then your Speed changes again and again you lose your actions until your Phases match again. However if you didnt come out of KO, youd keep the higher Speed to take recoveries faster until such time as you did. This construct can allow for faster recoveries but one is still required to take Full Phase actions.

 

Anyway if people have more alternate methods Id like to see them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Healing also limited by Max Effect' date=' thou the timer can be bought down to 1 Turn, thats the fastest it can go. Also is very Expensive AP wise since Red End 0, Persistent, Trigger and Decreased Reuse Duration are required. Also Max Effect cannot be increased.[/quote']

 

To me, the ability to consistently and rapidly recover STUN should be expensive. It is a powerful ability. The character becomes virtually impossible to keep down.

 

To be able to recover, say, 3 STUN per phase when KO'd (3 REC with Trigger) logically shoud cost more than 12 points. The Healing model will require, say, 1d6 Healing, standard effect, Reduced reuse (+1 1/2 to per turn), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2). Trigger is irrelevant as the Persistent will take care of that. That's 35 AP. It's Self Only, so that's -1/2 for a cost of 23 points. That seems a bit more rational.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

+Speed with limitation to Recover only' date=' this one is interesting, due to the rules on Speed changing in combat thou youd lose your action once KO'd until such time as thou Phases matched, ie your first action wouldnt be until when you would normally go at your base Speed. And if you came out of KO then your Speed changes again and again you lose your actions until your Phases match again. However if you didnt come out of KO, youd keep the higher Speed to take recoveries faster until such time as you did. This construct can allow for faster recoveries but one is still required to take Full Phase actions.[/quote']

 

Who said anything about Speed changing?

 

If you're Speed 6 but 2 of those Speed are only to take Recovery Actions you're still always Speed 6. Speed only changes when you voluntarily change it.

 

To be clear, even with Partially Limited Speed you are at the Speed you say you are at, up to your maximum Speed. If you have 4SPD and 2SPD;Only To Recover you are a 6 Speed Character, you just have limited options for two of those phases.

 

And I would discuss with your GM exactly which of those 2 Phases are Limited - determined at the time Speed is purchased and not changeable thereafter.

 

You want to take more Recoveries - buy more Speed. Simple as that. You want more END/STUN back when you Recover, but more REC.

[mmshah]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

I believe Trigger or Continuous would still be necessary for the Healing option, as Healing takes an attack action to perform, Persistent doesnt stop the need for that, just allows the power to be used while KO'd, but since you cant take attack actions while KO'd Id think you couldnt use it.

 

I didnt know that +Speed with limitation changed ure base Speed just limited what you could do on those Phases. Actually in Ultimate Speedster there is a thing called Secondary Speed with the example Only to take recoveries (-1). Its a Stop power but one can actually build something close to what I originally intended. You can buy +12 Secondary Speed Only to take recoveries (-1), 60 CP. This would allow a recovery every Phase as well as normal actions. Or even 2 recoveries in one in Phase if you choose.

 

The whole trigger on a Stat thing thou seems to bring up the bigger question of why is that Advantages seem limited when regarding Characteristics? It seems to me that one should be able to use the Advantages on Characteristics to create new and interesting abilites, that kind of the whole point of the generic hero system. There are plenty of examples with Limitations to Characteristics, it seems like Advantages get short changed. (Yes there are examples for Advantages on Str and Pre, but that seems mostly it.)

[archermoo]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Firstly there is no cap on REC you can take a recovery action anytime you have an action

 

Well, you can't use a Held Action to take a Recovery. And if you take damage between when you declare you are taking a Recovery and the and of the Segment (when the recovery happens) you lose the Recovery. So there are some pretty large limits on Recoveries.

[Talon]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Would I be a jerk to ask what Triggered STR would do?

 

(While I see the logic in causing triggered REC to cause a Recovery...it's not the logic I would use. Doesn't stop you from making a house rule -- which is what I do for the eight millions times I disagree with the designer!)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

Is there some reason that I am unaware of that the exact same argument can't be made about your interpretation of the very same rules?

Yes. My "interpretation" is consistent. Steve's isn't. Accoring to the rules-as-written, Advantages and Limitations *can* be applied to Characteristics as well as Powers. There's nothing in the description of Trigger or in the description of REC that says the one can't be applied to the other. The whole spirit of the HERO System (for over 25 years now!) has always been that you are allowed to do whatever you want as long as you pay for it. We don't put arbitrary restrictions on what modifiers can be placed on what powers/characteristics. My ruling is consistent with that idea. Steve's isn't.

 

There has to be a 'system default' from which all house rules then branch off from. Otherwise what's the point of new HERO users coming to this board to ask questions (mostly about how the system default rules work) when everyone's games have no common ground since each GM doesn't need to define any house rules but rather justs ignores the intent of the game designer at a whim?

There is a "system default" - it's called the rulebook. And what happens when the game designer ignores the intent of the system on a whim, as I believe he has done here?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

BTW: The original post had to do with applying Trigger to a Characteristic' date=' not a Recovery Action.[/quote']

And all of my posts have also had to do with applying Trigger to a Characteristic, and not a Recovery Action. Actions are not built with points and are not constructs of any kind. It doesn't make sense to apply Advantages to them. Trigger applied to an EB is not applied to the *action* of firing the EB, it's applied to the power construct of the EB.

 

However an Advantage can be applied to a Power or Charatceristic. In the case of Trigger, it causes an "action" to take place under certain circumstances. If applied to an EB, it causes the EB to fire instantly, in no time, instead of what would normally be an attack action. If applied to REC, it causes a Recovery to happen instantly, in no time, instead of what would notmally be a full-phase action. See how I'm being consistent?

 

Yes, you might say that since it's a full-phase action, rather than a "mere" attack action being Triggered, that the Trigger advantage should be raised in price. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all.

 

The discussion then devolved into the differences between Characteristics and Powers and how that affects the Trigger. My interest was in how Characteristics were different than Powers for activation with Trigger being ancillary in that it must be deal with the differences when applied to a characteristic.

I cannot account for why some people "devolved" the discussion that way. The rules make it quite clear that there are no real differences between Powers and Characteristics - Advantages and Limitations can be applied to both, and they work the same way in either case. They are bought with the same pool of points. They even have similar game effects in some cases (STR ~ HA, Armor ~ PD/ED) Some Powers are even considered Characteristic-like (Running, Swimming, Leaping).

 

Again, there is nothing in the rules that says Trigger can't be applied to a characteristic, or REC specifically.

 

You've made it clear that you don't follow the rules as written for your games. Again, fair enough.

In this case, I absolutely do follow the rules as written. It is you who do not.

 

As I said in my previous post. No further discussion is needed.

Further discussion will always be needed as long as you continue to mischaracterize my position.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Triggered Recovery?

 

...The rules make it quite clear that there are no real differences between Powers and Characteristics - Advantages and Limitations can be applied to both, and they work the same way in either case. They are bought with the same pool of points. They even have similar game effects in some cases (STR ~ HA, Armor ~ PD/ED) Some Powers are even considered Characteristic-like (Running, Swimming, Leaping)....

 

 

The rules do in fact have some real differences in the the way certain Advantages can be applied to Powers and Characteristics (example: When someone wants to put Ranged Advantage on Strength they should really use some form of Stretching or Telekinesis instead).

 

No one said putting a Trigger Advantage on Recovery was illegal. What has been pointed out is that doing so does NOT accomplish the result that some people think it does per the standard rules.