Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

[Psylint]

Hey folks,

 

Just coming from a discussion of one of my character builds designed around either using multiple power attacks or sweeps on a consistent basis to improve his offense, and there seemed to be a great problem with it. In folks defense, the attacks were individually on the lethal side, net 4d6 Killing dice after maneuvers and everything. I was confused because my understanding of a 12 DC damage cap was damage before maneuvers, pushing, and the like (if this is in error it explains an awful lot, but then I wonder about all the STR 60 Bricks running about).

 

To the point then:

 

How often would you allow characters to use sweep, rapid fire, multiple power attack and/or autofire to increase their offense in a single phase?

 

Do you consider maneuver bonuses in determining whether a power violates the damage cap e.g. Haymaker?

 

Do you consider Area of Effect as adding to DC, because they tend to bypass high DCV character's primary defense?

 

Do you consider high STR (30+) inherently AoE because of the ability to toss Volkswagons?

 

Do you allow characters with slower speed to have more single phase offense than faster characters?

 

 

For perspective, I played back in the day, and just now have my shiny new copy of FRED, so maybe I'm a little too enamored of the new things my characters can do now.

 

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Peace

[Talon]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

How often would you allow characters to use sweep' date=' rapid fire, multiple power attack and/or autofire to increase their offense in a single phase?[/quote']

 

Sweep/Rapid Fire: more or less at will (the penalties make it fairly balanced). The real trick is to watch for Sweep PSLs.

 

MPA: At will, except I don't truck with multiple Maneuvers being used together.

 

Do you consider maneuver bonuses in determining whether a power violates the damage cap e.g. Haymaker?

 

I usually don't consider Haymaker, but I will look at other Maneuvers (Move By/Through, Offensive Strike, etc.) when considering damage caps.

 

Do you consider Area of Effect as adding to DC, because they tend to bypass high DCV character's primary defense?

 

Yes; in a 12DC game I would not allow a 12d6 AOE Energy Blast. However, a 6d6 AOE EB would likely be too weak, so I often allow something in the middle.

 

Do you consider high STR (30+) inherently AoE because of the ability to toss Volkswagons?

 

Nope, I would consider this incidental.

 

Do you allow characters with slower speed to have more single phase offense than faster characters?

 

Generally, yes (depends on other character details of course). It's not something I spell out in a formula.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

Great discussion. We just hammered this out in our campaign. Here's what we did.

 

Fist off, we also use a CV Cap so that boosts to damage at the reduction of accuracy (Sweep, Rapid Fire, Autofire, Velocity Damage from Move Through, ect.) are meaningful. CSLs to Sweep, Autofire, Move Through, ect. count towards our CV Cap.

 

Our Damage Cap is based on the Active Points of the Base Attack, before Damage Modifiers.

For Example: a 4d6 KA (60 APs) is equal to 60 STR (60 APs), a 4d6 Autofire KA is NOT equal to 60 STR.

 

The Combat Section of the rules is pretty clear (though you have to go through the whole section) what is base and what is not.

For Example: STR bonuses to HA and HKA and Extra Damage Classes bought with Martial Arts are base damage. Martial Manuever bonuses, Haymaker bonuses, DC Increases using CSLs, are Velocity Damage are not.

 

The Modified Damage of an attack is anything that adds to the base damage, up to twice the Base Damage of the attack. There are a few damage modifiers that allow you to exceed double the base damage of the attack, such as Move Throughs and Extra Damage Classes for Manuevers, which make it even more important to have a limit on CVs.

 

These caps have done a pretty good job at keeping our characters balanced despite having a wide variation in attack types and sizes. I hope this helps.

For reference, our CV/ AP Caps for various campaign levels are:

250 pts. = 10/ 50

350 pts. = 12/ 60

450 pts. = 15/ 75

[Doc Samson]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

Hey folks,

 

Just coming from a discussion of one of my character builds designed around either using multiple power attacks or sweeps on a consistent basis to improve his offense, and there seemed to be a great problem with it. In folks defense, the attacks were individually on the lethal side, net 4d6 Killing dice after maneuvers and everything. I was confused because my understanding of a 12 DC damage cap was damage before maneuvers, pushing, and the like (if this is in error it explains an awful lot, but then I wonder about all the STR 60 Bricks running about).

 

To the point then:

 

How often would you allow characters to use sweep, rapid fire, multiple power attack and/or autofire to increase their offense in a single phase?

 

Do you consider maneuver bonuses in determining whether a power violates the damage cap e.g. Haymaker?

 

Do you consider Area of Effect as adding to DC, because they tend to bypass high DCV character's primary defense?

 

Do you consider high STR (30+) inherently AoE because of the ability to toss Volkswagons?

 

Do you allow characters with slower speed to have more single phase offense than faster characters?

 

 

For perspective, I played back in the day, and just now have my shiny new copy of FRED, so maybe I'm a little too enamored of the new things my characters can do now.

 

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Peace

 

Though we haven't put a restriction on Sweep and Rapidfire, 3 is our friendly limit.

 

Martial Manuever and Haymakers bonuses do not count against our Damage Cap and you cannot "buy off" their penalties.

 

AE counts towards our AP limit (and therefore Damage Cap).

 

We do not consider STR inherently AE as our GM will limit characters from throwing cars every phase in some way.

 

We have considered reducing speed based on damage and vice versa but have not yet had the need.

[Psylint]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

Thanks folks,

 

My impulse was toward your opinions, e.g. multiple power attacks or sweep, aoe counts against the damage cap, but with fudge factors. Where I diverged, to my detriment, was thinking of the damage cap as an absolute for things other than haymaker, pushing and the like.

 

I'm in general agreement with the Rules relative to Modified Damage and DC's, e.g. armor piercing, Based on Ego Combat, Autofire etc. counts but reduced endurance, personal immunity, difficult to dispel doesn't.

 

I'm beginning to think that it was Killing Attack hate more than anything else. I'm pretty sure none would balk at a martial artist that can sweep 3xmartial strike for 12d6 normal dice. Or a brick that can sweep punch 3 x strike for 12d6, or an energy projector who rapid fires 3x12d6 normal dice.

 

'Course sometimes you want to build a character with killing attacks: blades, claws, fire, radiation etc. Oh well.

 

Peace

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

Hmm.

 

Sweep and rapid fire have no cap int he rules but there is a suggestion that you shuold only allow 2-3 attacks with these manouvres. Sounds fair enough but then they have accumulative penalties which make more than that difficult anyway - seems more of a way to stop people wasting time than a way to cap damage.

 

MPA attacks can be fired off each phase with as many powers as you can muster at once and pay END for. In practice this is rarely more than 2 major attacks at once because you just can't pay for more and still have a character who can stand up under their own weight. I'd be a little wary of a character with a 12d6 EB, a 4d6 sight flash and a 2d6 INT drain (ranged), but then we are not really discussing 'how to abuse Hero', and I'm assuming that people are not simply maximising combat effect, but talking aboutt hat dramatic 'even though it will put me down, I have to pull out all the stops on this one' moment.

 

Autofire is a little different in that it is bought at character creation, and, subject to AP caps and an eye to abuse (What? Autofire x 1024 one hex AoE double pentrating one pip killing attack? Er...no.) no upper limit on this one, but in practice anything more than AF(5) should be reasonably pointless.

 

For our games 'bought' manouvres (like martial arts) count towards the damage cap, but manouvres that everyone has access to do not. Haymakers are very rare in our games because, well, they are usually incredibly easy to avoid, and move through tends not to stretch damage caps anyway. Move by can be a problem, but only if you allow ridiculously high CVs, and very impressive defences in the character. That is a judgement call though, and I don't think there is a 'right' answer. I used to be very strict about this sort of thing, but I'm getting more relaxed about it now.

 

My approach has always been toward AP caps in conjunction with damage caps, so AoE hits the AP cap before it hits the DC cap. Personally I would be reasonably relaxed about violating the AP cap with an AoE attack these days, because, let's face it, unless you advantage stack, an attack with a +1 advantage on it is not going to hurt anyone significantly, even the low DEF high CV characters.

 

High STR is not inherently AoE. I have argued in the past that we ought to be buying naked AoE advantages for strength (with Focus: object of opportunity). I'm not that militant now, but I generally consider large thrown objects to be AoE (non-selective) so they can hit multiple targets but do not hit everyone they could hit automatically. I have also been know to give bonuses to OCV rather than an area effect, depending ont he size of the object thrown (so a one hex object gets +2 OCV and a 2 hex object gets +4, a 4 hex object +6 and so on), based ont he combat modifiers table. i'm also very strict on the 'max damage = Body + DEF' rule and may well allow large objects to be broken up by those they hit first, causing little or no damage to those behind.

 

Generally a cap is a cap and slow characters have more points to spend elsewhere (often on defence) but I'd certainly listen to an argument that a few extra DCs would be appropriate. For example, in a game with an average SPD of 6, a 4 SPD character might convicne me to allow a 14d6 attack rather than the normal campaign limit of 12d6, but I would generally not allow more than a couple of DCs outside campaign limits as, generally, ALL the added damage is getting through defences, and that can be devastating,e specially bearing in mind that the character is on a team, most of whom WILL have higher SPDs.

 

When all is said and done though, I would encourage you to experiment with higher and lower DC and AP values, albeit on the strict understanding that if the character you build is either ridiculously effective, or spoiling the enjoyment of the other players, then their wings are going to get trimmed. You can play the 'experimental character' on the condition you don't sulk if I have to dial it back later.

 

It is all about enjoyment rather than hard and fast rules* and caps, and no one person's enjoyment is paramount.

 

 

 

 

*Although I also believe that consistency in the rules and their application enhances game enjoyment. This is something that Hero scores high in.

[dstarfire]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

From my experience as a player, I'd say count manuever bonuses towards your caps. Manuevers are just very cheap (albeit somewhat limited) bundles of cv and dc bonuses. In my opinion the vastly reduced cost balances out their limited utility.

[casualplayer]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I'm still waiting for someone to convince me that Rapid Fire is OK in game. Cool, sure, who wouldn't want to blaze away (as opposed to Blaze Away.) It seems like an ability you certainly could have, but only if you paid the points. And by paying the points I don't mean the cheap little skill. Of course, I have similar problems with MPAs also. Increasing the starting points for chargen and cranking up the combat manuevers for little or no cost makes me uneasy.

 

Before someone asks, the reason why I don't have a problem with Sweep is because of Block and Dodge. Everyone has access to B&D but not everyone can Missile Deflect. Also there's Damage Shields, counterstrike manuevers and such, making Sweep an inherently more risky manuever than Rapid Fire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

Hey folks,

 

Just coming from a discussion of one of my character builds designed around either using multiple power attacks or sweeps on a consistent basis to improve his offense, and there seemed to be a great problem with it. In folks defense, the attacks were individually on the lethal side, net 4d6 Killing dice after maneuvers and everything. I was confused because my understanding of a 12 DC damage cap was damage before maneuvers, pushing, and the like (if this is in error it explains an awful lot, but then I wonder about all the STR 60 Bricks running about).

 

My comments below must be read in the context that I don't generally use fixed caps of any sort, but review the whole character on an overview basis. Caps sometimes overly restrict a character, and sometimes you can squeeze something unbalanced through the cap.

 

I would also note the "sauce for the goose" rule. If you can do it, so can others, including your opponents. It's amazing how quickly that gets a group consensus on banning a construct or ability which has proven unbalancing.

 

To the point then:

 

How often would you allow characters to use sweep, rapid fire, multiple power attack and/or autofire to increase their offense in a single phase?

 

I generally would not limit these. Sweep and Rapid Fire come with inherent penalties, MPA requires spending the points to have multiple attack powers to MPA and autofire carries its own costs. Of course, if most players are regularly using these approaches, it stands to reason that most NPC's will also use this effective tactic.

 

Do you consider maneuver bonuses in determining whether a power violates the damage cap e.g. Haymaker?

 

Haymaker no, martial maneuvers yes.

 

Do you consider Area of Effect as adding to DC' date=' because they tend to bypass high DCV character's primary defense?[/quote']

 

Yes, with the caveat that I would probably allow more damage than half the "cap" for a full AoE attack.

 

Do you consider high STR (30+) inherently AoE because of the ability to toss Volkswagons?

 

No, but I also apply penalties to tossing large objects around (balance, aerodynamics, non-proficient weapons, encumbrance) so it balances out.

 

Do you allow characters with slower speed to have more single phase offense than faster characters?

 

All other things being equal, yes. This is part of balancing the overall character.

[CTaylor]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I don't cap sweep, it's self-limiting. Sure you technically can attack 850 people with sweep, but you aren't gonna hit more than 5 times anyway, no matter who you are.

[pinecone]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I don't cap sweep' date=' it's self-limiting. Sure you technically [i']can[/i] attack 850 people with sweep, but you aren't gonna hit more than 5 times anyway, no matter who you are.

 

Not even the mighty Broom, master of the sweep?...

[Talon]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I don't cap sweep' date=' it's self-limiting. Sure you technically [i']can[/i] attack 850 people with sweep, but you aren't gonna hit more than 5 times anyway, no matter who you are.

 

You'll probably hit zero times...the first miss you roll means the rest miss, and unless your dice have only 1s on them you are pretty likely to miss.

[Utech]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I think the most important thing to do is talk with the player about the attacks they've chosen and how they see the character using them in play. If a player says that they plan on using a(n)

• Offensive Strike
  
• Rapid Fired energy blast
  
• thrown car of opportunity
  
• Multiple Power Attack including an energy blast, INT drain, and flash (thanks Sean!)
  
• (similar)
  

as their main attack, it seems wise to include the extra damage, OCV bonus, or utility in your thinking about game balance.

 

If a player says that they plan on using one attack nearly all the time but would also like to have a special "Nova Blast" power that exceeds game guidelines in a major way and only to be used at very dramatic moments, well . . . why not?

[CTaylor]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

By the way, another house rule I have: if you miss the first attack in my game you can keep trying, but the most times you can sweep is equal to your speed.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

To the point then:

 

How often would you allow characters to use sweep, rapid fire, multiple power attack and/or autofire to increase their offense in a single phase?

Two or three times. Against agents or normals, perhaps a few more times. I should note that no PC has Autofire or Rapid Fire in our campaign and no character has ever tried an MPA - most of them are simply not built to do so. While Sweep has been used a few times (primarily by my own character), it's been against agents or animals (velociraptors).

 

Do you consider maneuver bonuses in determining whether a power violates the damage cap e.g. Haymaker?

Martial Maneuvers, yes. Haymaker and Pushing, no.

 

Do you consider Area of Effect as adding to DC, because they tend to bypass high DCV character's primary defense?

Yes, Advantages generally are considered as part of the Active Points for purposes of damage. The sole probable exception is Reduced Endurance.

 

Do you consider high STR (30+) inherently AoE because of the ability to toss Volkswagons?

No, but it clearly has to be taken into account when evaluating high STR vs high SPD/DEX characters. STR 30 isn't going to throw anything significant (and I suspect most MAs can get out of the way of a rolled VW).

 

Do you allow characters with slower speed to have more single phase offense than faster characters?

Yes. Our general guideline is SPD + DC <= 20. The 20 is likely to be raised in the not-too-distant future as the campaign progresses past 400 point average characters (about half the team is above 400 points including XP now).

 

For perspective, I played back in the day, and just now have my shiny new copy of FRED, so maybe I'm a little too enamored of the new things my characters can do now.

Run with it. That's how you learn the system and find out how effective things look on paper vs how they play out in game. Besides, it's fun.

[CTaylor]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

The sole probable exception is Reduced Endurance.

 

I preferred the 2nd edition and earlier version that detached Reduced END from the advantage system and made it a stand-alone "modifier" that didn't change active cost or END cost. That always made much more sense to me.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Sweep, Multiple Power Attacks and Autofire

 

I would also note the "sauce for the goose" rule. If you can do it, so can others, including your opponents. It's amazing how quickly that gets a group consensus on banning a construct or ability which has proven unbalancing.

 

 

Yeah, was amazing how quickly my players in Runequest stopped considering blade venom when I told them that if they used it then their opponents would too....regularly rather than just the really nasty ones.

 

 

Doc