help with a character build

[mallet]

Hi guys, I'm trying to design a new character but I'm having trouble figuring out the best way to make him work. So any ideas/help would be great.

 

The concept is a character that grows in power over the course of the day (in 4 six hour increments).

 

for example:

 

from midnight to 6am he has no powers, just regular skills, perks, stats, etc...

 

from 6am to noon he gains 2d6 EB, 3" flight

 

from noon until 6pm his powers goto 4d6 EB & 6" flight

 

then from 6pm 'till midnight they goto 8d6 Eb & 12" flight

 

Then at midnight his powers fail and the day starts over again.

 

So I was thinking of building him using Multiform, with each "phase" being a different "character" but since none of his skill, stats, perks, personality or disadvantages change the Mulitform power seems wrong... especially since he would have to "re-buy" all of his characteristics in each form to match his "normal" self.

 

So does anyone have a better idea?

[Psylint]

Re: help with a character build

 

Seems a classic case of "partially limited power"

 

For example, your flight:

 

Flight 3" Lim. power only between 6 a.m. and midnight; + 3" Flight lim. power only between noon and 6pm; + 6" Flight only between 6 pm and midnight.

 

Depending on the campaign a fair number of GMs would have problems with the character conception. He's essentially worthless midnight 'til 6 a.m. and with the cost savings kinda godly between 6pm and midnight.

 

As a player, I'd be prepared to be spending a fair amount of really important time midnight to 6 a.m.

 

Mechanically that should work, whether or not you'll get a -1/4 limitation or not is up to the local GM.

 

Peace

[Talon]

Re: help with a character build

 

You can use partially limited powers...just buy parts of each power with a different limitation.

 

Flight 3" (only from 6 am onward, -1/4), 5 points

Flight 3" (only from noon onward, -1/2), 4 points

Flight 6" (only from 6 pm onward, -1) 6 points

 

That's all one power, with differing limitations applied to different amounts.

 

The less complex way is to make an aggregate limitation "loses 100% before 6am, 75% before noon, 50% before 6 pm" and apply it to the whole thing, but that seems less precise to me.

[BNakagawa]

Re: help with a character build

 

Hi guys, I'm trying to design a new character but I'm having trouble figuring out the best way to make him work. So any ideas/help would be great.

 

The concept is a character that grows in power over the course of the day (in 4 six hour increments).

 

for example:

 

from midnight to 6am he has no powers, just regular skills, perks, stats, etc...

 

from 6am to noon he gains 2d6 EB, 3" flight

 

from noon until 6pm his powers goto 4d6 EB & 6" flight

 

then from 6pm 'till midnight they goto 8d6 Eb & 12" flight

 

Then at midnight his powers fail and the day starts over again.

 

So I was thinking of building him using Multiform, with each "phase" being a different "character" but since none of his skill, stats, perks, personality or disadvantages change the Mulitform power seems wrong... especially since he would have to "re-buy" all of his characteristics in each form to match his "normal" self.

 

So does anyone have a better idea?

 

So what happens if he starts a fight at 11:15pm and gets knocked back into a different time zone. (towards the east). Do his powers go away?

[ghost-angel]

Re: help with a character build

 

As Psylint and Talon have pointed out - this is a classic and excellent use of Partially Limited Powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with a character build

 

I agree the build is easy. The extent of the limitations depends primarily on how often you expect to do without these powers. As a GM, I'd be OK with, say,:

 

2d6 EB and 3" Flight, not between midnight and 6 AM (-1/4)

+2d6 EB and +3" Flight not between midnight and Noon (-1)

+4d6 EB and +6" flight only from 6 PM to Midnight (-2)

 

This is closer to the actual periods that the powers will be available.

 

But I would then also make sure that the need for these powers is more or less even over the periods in question. You wouldn't be able to "only have encounters" from Noon to midnight. The character should be useful even when none of his limited powers are available. There would also definitely be times when you don't know what time it is.

 

The concept would need to support the gradual increase/decrease as well, so the GM can understand what causes the fluctuations and deal with issues like the time zone change noted above, or being on a planet or in a dimension where time flows differently.

[Talon]

Re: help with a character build

 

I would totally have a villain arrange to have a special time zone law passed just before a major crime.

[Psylint]

Re: help with a character build

 

With respect to Hugh,

 

I think your limitations are on the high side. 6pm to Midnight, at least in most campaigns I've been in isn't at all rare. I would say easily half the time, we're playing after sundown. But we play in a "darker" league I guess where folks get hurt, occasionally even die. Maybe in your campaigns, heroes clock in at 8:00, leave at 5:00 and make it home for dinner.

 

 

Peace

[Talon]

Re: help with a character build

 

A lot depends on the game; if it's a "heroes defend the city" game and the villains can time their attacks for early morning, big limitation. If it's a vigilante game where the heroes are taking the initiative most of the time, not so much. I chose arbitrary numbers that made the math work well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with a character build

 

With respect to Hugh,

 

I think your limitations are on the high side. 6pm to Midnight, at least in most campaigns I've been in isn't at all rare. I would say easily half the time, we're playing after sundown. But we play in a "darker" league I guess where folks get hurt, occasionally even die. Maybe in your campaigns, heroes clock in at 8:00, leave at 5:00 and make it home for dinner.

 

My limitations are based on the portion of the day. Each six hour increment is 25%of the day. Powers not available for the first six hours are available 75% of the time. A -1/4 limitation means the character pays 80% of the cost. A bit high, but the next option, -1/2, makes the cost 2/3, quite a bit too low, so -1/4 is the most fair option.

 

Powers only available half the day? A -1 makes the cost exactly 50% cost, so that's perfect.

 

A power only agvailable 1/4 of the day should have a -3 limitation so it carries 25% of the cost, but going beyond -2 is pretty extreme, leaving 1/3 of the cost.

 

Of course, if action in your game will be weighted to specific times of day, you'll need to vary the limitations to compensate. In mine, the villains tend to be smart enough to eventually notice those times the character seems especially powerful, and those times he seems especially weak. Once they've worked that out, smart villains will time the crime!

 

I also look at reciprocals. If "unavailable 6 hours per day" is a -1/4 limitation, "only available 6 hours per day" should be a very highg limitation, and -2 fits the bill.

[mallet]

Re: help with a character build

 

Hey thanks guys. this helps a lot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: help with a character build

 

Assuming we just work on the percentage of the day that the power works for, we have 6 hour slots, so he can fly at 12" and have a 8d6 EB for 1/4 of the day, etc. We can assume that sometimes the PC can arrange the most advantageous time to battle, and sometimes the villains can, so the net effect fo that is a wash. Looking at 'limited power' (p299 5ER), we get the following:

 

3"/2d6 is in operation 75% of the time, so power loses 1/4 of overall effectiveness: -1/4

6"/4d6 is in effect 1/2 the time, so power loses half effectvieness, -1

12"/8d6 is in effect 1/4 of time. That does nto work out on the table, but is between -1 1/2 and -2.

 

In other words, Hugh got it spot on, according to the Holy Writ, and who, in good conscience, can argue with that?

[Psylint]

Re: help with a character build

 

With respect to Hugh, Sean and others:

 

Your mathematical analysis is unassailable and quite convincing, except that "Power does not work in Darkness is -1/2" according to Holy Writ. "Power only works in Darkness is -1/2" and "only works in Twilight is -1"

 

So Twilight, granted happens every day but can't reasonably be construed to last more than 3 hours/day unless your very far north or very far south (that is north or south of the 70th parallel respectively) [[although apparently there are those who construe Twilight to occur both in the early morning and the evening, but still that's at most 6 hours in one day, at or above the 80th Parallel and only on the Equinox). How does that figure into your calculations?

 

I do think limited power has some actual game play fudge factors in it. After all Doesn't work in Water is -1/4 yet 2/3 of the planet is water and over 90% of the biosphere is in or under the water. Doesn't work in Intense magnetic fields is -1/4; but where do these naturally occur? I'm actually serious about that, I suppose on each of the poles, in the Ionosphere, but other than that I'm stumped.

 

Peace

[Sean Waters]

Re: help with a character build

 

There is always an element of GMcall in these situations, and I think it is the intersection of 'how often does this occur' and 'how often does this occur in the game' that we have to look at. We can take, as a base assumption, that how often it occurs naturally = how often it occurs in the game, but that is not always valid. Intense magnetic fields, for instance, are rare in nature, but common in game reality, although they may be from an artificial source.

 

The nearest I can get to 'best advice' is simply this - pick any limitation value you like and trust the GM to make sure that accurately reflects the loss of utility. That may sound like it is working backwards - but the limitation value determines the utility loss, not the sfx attached to the limtiation, which are, no more or less than anything else in Hero - there for appearance only.

[Talon]

Re: help with a character build

 

Personally, I think many of the example limitations in 5ER are under-rated. I would give "only in darkness" -1 most likely; "only vs fire" seems closer to -2 than -1 IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with a character build

 

n other words, Hugh got it spot on, according to the Holy Writ, and who, in good conscience, can argue with that?

 

Join the Cult Of Steve

 

 

Throughout September I will be treating the contents of 5ER, the FAQ and Q&A as Holy Writ, and will not hear a word said against them.

 

Am I the only one worried about a jihad...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with a character build

 

Personally' date=' I think many of the example limitations in 5ER are under-rated. I would give "only in darkness" -1 most likely; "only vs fire" seems closer to -2 than -1 IMO.[/quote']

 

I definitely agree with the fire example. In a typical game in virtually any genre, it seems unlikely 2/3 of all energy attacks are fire, much less some less common SFX.

 

I would have many questions on "only in darkness". How dark? Completely dark so sight is useless? Any time the sun is down? When you have less light than a full moon? Dark enough to impose a combat penalty? Sure, it will be dark outside pretty frequently, but you may be having indoor encounters, encounters where there are streetlights, etc. There's a pretty broad range of limitations above.

 

And I again come back to the reciprocal. If a power usable "only in darkness" or ED "only vs fire" is a -1/2 (character is limited about 1/3 of the time), then a power "not usable in darkness" or ED "not vs fire" must be limited 2/3 of the time, since the two must sum to 100%, making that limitation -1 1/2.

 

The book says both "only in darkness" and "not in darkness" are worth -1/2. I can only conclude that the book envisions two games, one taking place primarily in darkness (for "only in darkness" to be -1/2) and another taking place primarily in the light (for "not in darkness" to be -1/2), or alternatively that two different definitions of darkness are in use. The reality is that few players buy powers that are only rarely available based on the environment, so it is probably a reasonable assumption that the choices will be dictated by the game environment and definitions of the terms favouring frequent availability.

 

The Holy Writ cannot be wrong. Only your interpretation of the Holy Writ can be wrong. You have interpreted the guidelines presented in the chart as hard and fast rules for every game, and not possible examples.

 

With respect to Hugh, Sean and others:

 

Your mathematical analysis is unassailable and quite convincing, except that "Power does not work in Darkness is -1/2" according to Holy Writ. "Power only works in Darkness is -1/2" and "only works in Twilight is -1"

 

So Twilight, granted happens every day but can't reasonably be construed to last more than 3 hours/day unless your very far north or very far south (that is north or south of the 70th parallel respectively) [[although apparently there are those who construe Twilight to occur both in the early morning and the evening, but still that's at most 6 hours in one day, at or above the 80th Parallel and only on the Equinox). How does that figure into your calculations?

 

See discussion above. In my view, if the GM agrees that Only in Twilight is worth -2, the onus is on him to make it that infrequent. Conversely, if he only allows -1/2 for Only in Darkness, or Not in Darkness, he has agreed that circumstances will deny use of the power about 1/3 of the time and make it available about 2/3 of the time.

 

It also bears noting that the rule is "the power is limited", not "the power is unavailable". An encounter in broad daylight inbvolving a character with the Darkness power would limit BOTH characters, since there would be locations where each power would fail to function.

 

A literal reading of the book also has some ludicrous results. A character with 25" Flight, speed reduced by 20% in darkness or costs 50% more END in darkness is limited just as often as a character whose 25" Flight fails in darkness, but it's pretty clear whose power is more limited. [What? Partial limitation? Oh no, he still has to USE 25" of flight, and pay the END, and suck up the turn mode, in order to achieve 20" velocity in darkness - it's all limited!]

 

I do think limited power has some actual game play fudge factors in it. After all Doesn't work in Water is -1/4 yet 2/3 of the planet is water and over 90% of the biosphere is in or under the water. Doesn't work in Intense magnetic fields is -1/4; but where do these naturally occur? I'm actually serious about that' date=' I suppose on each of the poles, in the Ionosphere, but other than that I'm stumped.[/quote']

 

Where you say "fudge factor", I would say "campaign customization". Most of the universe is vacuum, but little of the typical Fantasy game will take place in a vacuum. Similarly, underwater adventures aren't all that common if the typical character doesn't breathe water. The limitation is based on how often the character will be limited. That's why my post started with

 

The extent of the limitations depends primarily on how often you expect to do without these powers. As a GM, I'd be OK with, say,:

 

and followed the limitation values I would be OK with by stating that

 

But I would then also make sure that the need for these powers is more or less even over the periods in question.

 

If the game is one of vampires who never come out in the daylight, suddenly the allocated need for these powers changes markedly, changing how often this specific character will be limited, and by such change the value of the limitation.

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

I would totally have a villain arrange to have a special time zone law passed just before a major crime.

 

"Ahhh! Curse you daylight savings time!!!!"

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

I definitely agree with the fire example. In a typical game in virtually any genre, it seems unlikely 2/3 of all energy attacks are fire, much less some less common SFX.

 

I would have many questions on "only in darkness". How dark? Completely dark so sight is useless? Any time the sun is down? When you have less light than a full moon? Dark enough to impose a combat penalty? Sure, it will be dark outside pretty frequently, but you may be having indoor encounters, encounters where there are streetlights, etc. There's a pretty broad range of limitations above.

 

And I again come back to the reciprocal. If a power usable "only in darkness" or ED "only vs fire" is a -1/2 (character is limited about 1/3 of the time), then a power "not usable in darkness" or ED "not vs fire" must be limited 2/3 of the time, since the two must sum to 100%, making that limitation -1 1/2.

 

The book says both "only in darkness" and "not in darkness" are worth -1/2. I can only conclude that the book envisions two games, one taking place primarily in darkness (for "only in darkness" to be -1/2) and another taking place primarily in the light (for "not in darkness" to be -1/2), or alternatively that two different definitions of darkness are in use. The reality is that few players buy powers that are only rarely available based on the environment, so it is probably a reasonable assumption that the choices will be dictated by the game environment and definitions of the terms favouring frequent availability.

 

The Holy Writ cannot be wrong. Only your interpretation of the Holy Writ can be wrong. You have interpreted the guidelines presented in the chart as hard and fast rules for every game, and not possible examples.

 

 

 

See discussion above. In my view, if the GM agrees that Only in Twilight is worth -2, the onus is on him to make it that infrequent. Conversely, if he only allows -1/2 for Only in Darkness, or Not in Darkness, he has agreed that circumstances will deny use of the power about 1/3 of the time and make it available about 2/3 of the time.

 

It also bears noting that the rule is "the power is limited", not "the power is unavailable". An encounter in broad daylight inbvolving a character with the Darkness power would limit BOTH characters, since there would be locations where each power would fail to function.

 

A literal reading of the book also has some ludicrous results. A character with 25" Flight, speed reduced by 20% in darkness or costs 50% more END in darkness is limited just as often as a character whose 25" Flight fails in darkness, but it's pretty clear whose power is more limited. [What? Partial limitation? Oh no, he still has to USE 25" of flight, and pay the END, and suck up the turn mode, in order to achieve 20" velocity in darkness - it's all limited!]

 

 

 

Where you say "fudge factor", I would say "campaign customization". Most of the universe is vacuum, but little of the typical Fantasy game will take place in a vacuum. Similarly, underwater adventures aren't all that common if the typical character doesn't breathe water. The limitation is based on how often the character will be limited. That's why my post started with

 

 

 

and followed the limitation values I would be OK with by stating that

 

 

 

If the game is one of vampires who never come out in the daylight, suddenly the allocated need for these powers changes markedly, changing how often this specific character will be limited, and by such change the value of the limitation.

 

As much as I hate to argue with you, I have to disagree...part of the lim is taking into account that You know when your powers don't work, and can plan accordingly.

 

"I turn on the stadium lights, then rush to aid my comrades"

Secondly I feel the reciticals are not the right way to weight the lim...I've always functioned under "Lose half, take a half" so if you lose half effectivness (1/2 of the day) then thats a -1/2 lim. The "official" examples are consistant with this way of doing things ...so I feel confident( sorta) that this is more than just my "way of doing it"

 

In general giving too much for lims causes ballence issues, I recommend that a person should be conservative, when assighning them...

 

It seems I posted stuff about this a long time ago...if I can find it I'll try to link it (though I will most likely fail in my attempt)

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

I definitely agree with the fire example. In a typical game in virtually any genre, it seems unlikely 2/3 of all energy attacks are fire, much less some less common SFX.

 

I would have many questions on "only in darkness". How dark? Completely dark so sight is useless? Any time the sun is down? When you have less light than a full moon? Dark enough to impose a combat penalty? Sure, it will be dark outside pretty frequently, but you may be having indoor encounters, encounters where there are streetlights, etc. There's a pretty broad range of limitations above.

 

And I again come back to the reciprocal. If a power usable "only in darkness" or ED "only vs fire" is a -1/2 (character is limited about 1/3 of the time), then a power "not usable in darkness" or ED "not vs fire" must be limited 2/3 of the time, since the two must sum to 100%, making that limitation -1 1/2.

 

The book says both "only in darkness" and "not in darkness" are worth -1/2. I can only conclude that the book envisions two games, one taking place primarily in darkness (for "only in darkness" to be -1/2) and another taking place primarily in the light (for "not in darkness" to be -1/2), or alternatively that two different definitions of darkness are in use. The reality is that few players buy powers that are only rarely available based on the environment, so it is probably a reasonable assumption that the choices will be dictated by the game environment and definitions of the terms favouring frequent availability.

 

The Holy Writ cannot be wrong. Only your interpretation of the Holy Writ can be wrong. You have interpreted the guidelines presented in the chart as hard and fast rules for every game, and not possible examples.

 

 

 

See discussion above. In my view, if the GM agrees that Only in Twilight is worth -2, the onus is on him to make it that infrequent. Conversely, if he only allows -1/2 for Only in Darkness, or Not in Darkness, he has agreed that circumstances will deny use of the power about 1/3 of the time and make it available about 2/3 of the time.

 

It also bears noting that the rule is "the power is limited", not "the power is unavailable". An encounter in broad daylight inbvolving a character with the Darkness power would limit BOTH characters, since there would be locations where each power would fail to function.

 

A literal reading of the book also has some ludicrous results. A character with 25" Flight, speed reduced by 20% in darkness or costs 50% more END in darkness is limited just as often as a character whose 25" Flight fails in darkness, but it's pretty clear whose power is more limited. [What? Partial limitation? Oh no, he still has to USE 25" of flight, and pay the END, and suck up the turn mode, in order to achieve 20" velocity in darkness - it's all limited!]

 

 

 

Where you say "fudge factor", I would say "campaign customization". Most of the universe is vacuum, but little of the typical Fantasy game will take place in a vacuum. Similarly, underwater adventures aren't all that common if the typical character doesn't breathe water. The limitation is based on how often the character will be limited. That's why my post started with

 

 

 

and followed the limitation values I would be OK with by stating that

 

 

 

If the game is one of vampires who never come out in the daylight, suddenly the allocated need for these powers changes markedly, changing how often this specific character will be limited, and by such change the value of the limitation.

 

As much as I hate to argue with you, I have to disagree...part of the lim is taking into account that You know when your powers don't work, and can plan accordingly.

 

"I turn on the stadium lights, then rush to aid my comrades"

Secondly I feel the reciprocals are not the right way to weight the lim...I've always functioned under "Lose half, take a half" so if you lose half effectivness (1/2 of the day) then thats a -1/2 lim. The "official" examples are consistant with this way of doing things ...so I feel confident( sorta) that this is more than just my "way of doing it"

 

In general giving too much for lims causes ballence issues, I recommend that a person should be conservative, when assighning them...

 

It seems I posted stuff about this a long time ago...if I can find it I'll try to link it (though I will most likely fail in my attempt)

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

Gah! I care so much I double posted... PLease remove the first of the two posts when able...Thanx...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: help with a character build

 

As much as I hate to argue with you' date=' I have to disagree...part of the lim is taking into account that You know when your powers don't work, and can plan accordingly.[/quote']

 

That ability to mitigate the limitation should also be taken into account in setting its value, so we don;t disagree there.

 

Simple knowledge has value, and that is already acknowledged. If a power that works half the time, and I can predetermine whether it will work, that's -1 - power loses half its effectiveness. If the power works haldf the time at random, it has a 10- activation roll, which is a -1 1/4 limitation IIRC (11- is -1, and that works 5/8 of the time).

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

That ability to mitigate the limitation should also be taken into account in setting its value, so we don;t disagree there.

 

Simple knowledge has value, and that is already acknowledged. If a power that works half the time, and I can predetermine whether it will work, that's -1 - power loses half its effectiveness. If the power works haldf the time at random, it has a 10- activation roll, which is a -1 1/4 limitation IIRC (11- is -1, and that works 5/8 of the time).

 

I'm not totally disagreing, it's just that I think the limits you're assigning are too high....losing a power for half the day (not in darkness, or Night, or not in Day, or bright light) is only a -1/2, in my opinion. a -1 is lose most of your utility, I'd assign that to "Only in twilight, it's easy to mitigate, but most of the time you're hosed, and if other figure it out...well, look out.

 

Although I do not think I'd give say "Precog visions: Only in twilight a -1, because it's utility can persist through out the day...for that I'd consider -1/2 to be about right.

[pinecone]

Re: help with a character build

 

My basic "Rule of thumb" has been:

 

Counts as a disadd; -1/4

 

Loses about half; -1/2

 

Loses most of it's value; -1

 

So limited it barely counts as a power; -2

 

Activation kind of breaks this mold, but is a disadd All the time, so is worth more in my mind.

 

Just showing where I'm comming from.....