Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

[gunbuster]

Can one apply Telekinesis as a +STR bonus for normal or killing attacks... at range? For example, if I have a character with Telekinesis who fights using knives, can she use her TK to "throw" the knives at an opponent with a damage bonus as if she had hit them in melee with a high strength? If the TK STR bonus applies, what is the maximum bonus allowed? Does the attack gain any of the indirect bonuses?

 

I suspect that it may be easier to model this as an indirect killing attack than using TK, but I wanted to see if there were interpretations of the rules that would govern this.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Subject to GM approval I don't see a problem with this in a heroic game (you can, after all, buy martial manouvres with TK, and in heroic games you are not paying popints for weapons), but in a superheroic game I'd agree you would need to buy an attack and make it indirect. Alternatively you could buy your TK as a form of stretching, with unusual sfx.

[pinecone]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Even in a Supers game I don't think I'd have a problem with a TK char using weapons. The STR you add would be based on the STR of the TK alone...and of course cannot more than double (exept for HA's...umm depending on GM...)

[Flames]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

I would subtract the TK STR needed to lift and throw the weapon that distance from the STR added, but in the case of something like a dagger, I doubt that would make much difference.

 

Also, if the TK is being used to actually push the weapon at the target, that might make a difference versus just using the TK to hurl the weapon.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Even in a Supers game I don't think I'd have a problem with a TK char using weapons. The STR you add would be based on the STR of the TK alone...and of course cannot more than double (exept for HA's...umm depending on GM...)

 

Here's the problem as I see it:

 

Character has (say) 30 TK STR and a 2d6 HKA OAF (sword).

 

It is a supers game and all paid for with points and, unless it is bought with the'strength minimum' and 'real weapon' power modifiers (which it is not) the sword does not have a strength minimum or any appreciable weight.

 

Do you think that the sword should become useable at range just because he has TK? I mean, he has not paid for range on the HKA and this adds an awful lot of utility to TK that I've never considered was there before. That's 4d6 at range for the 30 points you spent on the HKA and the 45 you spent on the TK PLUS you have all the usual utility of TK.

 

TK is not the same thing as stretching which specifically would allow this kind of thing, at least up to a point.

[archermoo]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Here's the problem as I see it:

 

Character has (say) 30 TK STR and a 2d6 HKA OAF (sword).

 

It is a supers game and all paid for with points and, unless it is bought with the'strength minimum' and 'real weapon' power modifiers (which it is not) the sword does not have a strength minimum or any appreciable weight.

 

Do you think that the sword should become useable at range just because he has TK? I mean, he has not paid for range on the HKA and this adds an awful lot of utility to TK that I've never considered was there before. That's 4d6 at range for the 30 points you spent on the HKA and the 45 you spent on the TK PLUS you have all the usual utility of TK.

 

TK is not the same thing as stretching which specifically would allow this kind of thing, at least up to a point.

 

Well, TK is designed to be Strength at range. I certainly don't see a problem with it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

If you normally don't pay points for weapons/equipment in the campaign, absolutely you can use TK with your weapons and add the STR of your TK to the damage. However, I would rule that TK counts as an "off-hand" even if you have Ambidexterity, unless a separate WF is purchased specifically for use with TK.

 

 

If you do normally pay points for any equipment (such as in a superheroic campaign), then I'd say you must purchase the maneuver/ability/tactic of wielding your HTH weapon with TK as as additional Power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Here's the problem as I see it:

 

Character has (say) 30 TK STR and a 2d6 HKA OAF (sword).

 

It is a supers game and all paid for with points and, unless it is bought with the'strength minimum' and 'real weapon' power modifiers (which it is not) the sword does not have a strength minimum or any appreciable weight.

 

Do you think that the sword should become useable at range just because he has TK? I mean, he has not paid for range on the HKA and this adds an awful lot of utility to TK that I've never considered was there before. That's 4d6 at range for the 30 points you spent on the HKA and the 45 you spent on the TK PLUS you have all the usual utility of TK.

 

TK is not the same thing as stretching which specifically would allow this kind of thing, at least up to a point.

 

I believe the consensus on similar issues issues in the past was that the TK would have to have the Fine Manipulation adder to be used to wield a HTH weapon at the range of the TK. Range modifiers would still apply and probably off hand penalties as well. Supers wouldn't need a separate TK/HTH weapon familiarity but heroic characters would.

 

Taking a closer look at your example and the optional ways it could be built.

 

45 Telekinesis (30 STR) - END=4

55 Telekinesis (30 STR), Fine Manipulation - END=5

60 Telekinesis (33 STR), Fine Manipulation - END=6

 

40 Killing Attack - Ranged 4d6 (60 Active Points); OIF (Object of Opportunity; -1/2) - END=6

 

Seems to me that if the character is paying for the TK and the OAF sword separately that they could get a semblance this ability as a multipower slot on the TK anyway.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Well' date=' TK is designed to be Strength at range. I certainly don't see a problem with it.[/quote']

 

If TK was so designed or intended, it would not exist, or exist only as an Advantage on STR. TK is more it's own independent Power with its own unique abilities (such as its indirectness and ability to lift/manipulate multiple objects).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

I believe the consensus on similar issues issues in the past was that the TK would have to have the Fine Manipulation adder to be used to wield a HTH weapon at the range of the TK.

 

I don't believe Fine Manipulation would be required for most HTH weapon. In my opinion, Fine Manipulation is overrated. TK as it's basic level can't grasp and move simple objects. As far as I'm concerned, a sword or a knife is a simple object. A pistol or other firearm, certainly Fine Manipulation would be required because you are no longer dealing with a simple object. Same may be said if the HTH weapon is something like a whip or other weapon which requires a high level of finesse. Otherwise, hack and slash is a simple use of TK and nothing more (other than perhaps a WF as mentioned previously) is required.

[pinecone]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Here's the problem as I see it:

 

Character has (say) 30 TK STR and a 2d6 HKA OAF (sword).

 

It is a supers game and all paid for with points and, unless it is bought with the'strength minimum' and 'real weapon' power modifiers (which it is not) the sword does not have a strength minimum or any appreciable weight.

 

Do you think that the sword should become useable at range just because he has TK? I mean, he has not paid for range on the HKA and this adds an awful lot of utility to TK that I've never considered was there before. That's 4d6 at range for the 30 points you spent on the HKA and the 45 you spent on the TK PLUS you have all the usual utility of TK.

 

TK is not the same thing as stretching which specifically would allow this kind of thing, at least up to a point.

 

Well, in my book TK is "Strength at range" if I can stab a dude with my 30 str, why am I getting upset with him using his power? Streaching lets you do that, at a major discount. That discount is justified, because TK lets you do extra stuff...

 

I remember an old discussion about MA with TK, and "you should use streaching" did not come up...so it's worth it to talk about here. I don't think it's "OK" to say TK won't work with a Foci, after all it is a Foci. It can be destroyed or grabed as normal, etc....

[pinecone]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

I don't believe Fine Manipulation would be required for most HTH weapon. In my opinion' date=' Fine Manipulation is overrated. TK as it's basic level can't grasp and move simple objects. As far as I'm concerned, a sword or a knife is a simple object. A pistol or other firearm, certainly Fine Manipulation would be required because you are no longer dealing with a simple object. Same may be said if the HTH weapon is something like a whip or other weapon which requires a high level of finesse. Otherwise, hack and slash is a simple use of TK and nothing more (other than perhaps a WF as mentioned previously) is required.[/quote']

 

I agree, though I'd let some one fire, though "aiming" might require more...and reloading would require fine manip....

 

I gotta disagree that TK is not STR at Range, 'cause I think it IS, the rules even require you to use TK if you want STR at range, no choice in the matter....the cost is equive to buying it seperately, especially in a Multi.

[JmOz]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Personaly I think you should need to apply the range advantage to the hand attack in a super heroic game, in a heroic sure go for it

[gunbuster]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Wow, I didn't think there would be this much gray area over my query. It sounsd as though going with an indirect RKA with special effects would be least controversial, but it seems unnecessary to spend for TK (because the character concept needs it), then build a workaround to handle the ranged attack with a weapon. If I wanted a non-lethal attack, say with a club, I'd have to purchase yet another attack to simulate the effect. Stretching would work as a workaround, but it isn't really the same and there are subtle differences. Perhaps I should submit it to Steve for an opinion?

[archermoo]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Wow' date=' I didn't think there would be this much gray area over my query. It sounsd as though going with an indirect RKA with special effects would be least controversial, but it seems unnecessary to spend for TK (because the character concept needs it), then build a workaround to handle the ranged attack with a weapon. If I wanted a non-lethal attack, say with a club, I'd have to purchase yet another attack to simulate the effect. Stretching would work as a workaround, but it isn't really the same and there are subtle differences. Perhaps I should submit it to Steve for an opinion?[/quote']

 

As a note, 5ER actually specifically addresses using weapons with TK on p230, first full paragraph of the second column. It doesn't specifically address throwing weapons, but it certainly doesn't restrict it.

[Talon]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Wow' date=' I didn't think there would be this much gray area over my query. It sounsd as though going with an indirect RKA with special effects would be least controversial, but it seems unnecessary to spend for TK (because the character concept needs it), then build a workaround to handle the ranged attack with a weapon. If I wanted a non-lethal attack, say with a club, I'd have to purchase yet another attack to simulate the effect. Stretching would work as a workaround, but it isn't really the same and there are subtle differences. Perhaps I should submit it to Steve for an opinion?[/quote']

 

In a standard superhero game, you would indeed be expected to pay separately for an RKA, a non-lethal attack, and TK (usually in a Multipower so the cost isn't so bad).

 

In a heroic game, it would be appropriate to use TK to wield a weapon, maybe even a weapon you haven't paid points for.

[casualplayer]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

This sounds like something that should be written up as a slot in a TK Tricks MP, similar to a Brick Tricks MP. Probably a Naked Advantage of Indirect usable with foci.

[archermoo]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

In a standard superhero game, you would indeed be expected to pay separately for an RKA, a non-lethal attack, and TK (usually in a Multipower so the cost isn't so bad).

 

In a heroic game, it would be appropriate to use TK to wield a weapon, maybe even a weapon you haven't paid points for.

 

Well, not according to the rules. They state pretty clearly that you can indeed use TK to wield a weapon. They also note that unless you paid points for the weapon or have a WF with it you are at the normal -3 OCV for using it. And that the GM might want to impose an additional -1 OCV to represent the differences between fighting with a weapon in your hand and one used via TK.

[Talon]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Well' date=' not according to the rules. They state pretty clearly that you can indeed use TK to wield a weapon. They also note that unless you paid points for the weapon or have a WF with it you are at the normal -3 OCV for using it. And that the GM might want to impose an additional -1 OCV to represent the differences between fighting with a weapon in your hand and one used via TK.[/quote']

 

True, but the norm I have experienced (in supers games) is that someone who bought a 2d6 HKA OAF weapon and 30 STR TK and tried to regularly use the weapon with TK would be "discouraged" from doing so and encouraged to buy the ranged attack outright. YMMV.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

True' date=' but the norm I have experienced (in supers games) is that someone who bought a 2d6 HKA OAF weapon and 30 STR TK and tried to regularly use the weapon with TK would be "discouraged" from doing so and encouraged to buy the ranged attack outright. YMMV.[/quote']

Agreed. This is pretty much the same as a high STR character throwing things around often enough he should be buying a separate ranged attack of some kind, such as EB.

[archermoo]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

True' date=' but the norm I have experienced (in supers games) is that someone who bought a 2d6 HKA OAF weapon and 30 STR TK and tried to regularly use the weapon with TK would be "discouraged" from doing so and encouraged to buy the ranged attack outright. YMMV.[/quote']

 

Agreed. This is pretty much the same as a high STR character throwing things around often enough he should be buying a separate ranged attack of some kind' date=' such as EB.[/quote']

 

The difference being that someone who pays for TK and pays for a HKA has already paid both for the attack and the ability to use it at range. Wheras a brick who just picks up random available objects to throw to give range to their STR has only paid for their STR, not the ability to use it at range.

 

To my mind at least, the TK + HKA character has already bought the attack, and doesn't need to buy it again. So yup, my mileage does indeed vary.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

The difference being that someone who pays for TK and pays for a HKA has already paid both for the attack and the ability to use it at range. Wheras a brick who just picks up random available objects to throw to give range to their STR has only paid for their STR, not the ability to use it at range.

 

To my mind at least, the TK + HKA character has already bought the attack, and doesn't need to buy it again. So yup, my mileage does indeed vary.

 

To my mind, if you buy the following:

 

Demon Claws: HKA 2d6

Infernal Hand: TK 30 STR

 

There is absolutely no way anyone can convince me you can use that HKA at range. It's just an HKA, the SFX is that of demonic claws on the hands. As a result, it is extremely difficult to convince me that by adding a Limitation to the HKA, it suddenly gains such a high level of flexibility. After all, most would agree that in a supers game, putting Focus on your sword SFX HKA does not automatically grant you the ability to throw it around with your STR. Why would it then allow you to do so with with TK?

[archermoo]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

To my mind, if you buy the following:

 

Demon Claws: HKA 2d6

Infernal Hand: TK 30 STR

 

There is absolutely no way anyone can convince me you can use that HKA at range. It's just an HKA, the SFX is that of demonic claws on the hands. As a result, it is extremely difficult to convince me that by adding a Limitation to the HKA, it suddenly gains such a high level of flexibility. After all, most would agree that in a supers game, putting Focus on your sword SFX HKA does not automatically grant you the ability to throw it around with your STR. Why would it then allow you to do so with with TK?

 

Do you allow characters to throw things that they haven't paid for at people? In my experience, most Refs do. Things like manhole covers, cars, etc get used like that all the time. Why should a physical object that you have paid points for be more limited than a physical object that you haven't paid points for?

 

And if someone wants to use an HKA that they've paid points for through a focus to throw at people, I'd generally not have any problem with that. Granted it lets them use it at range when they haven't paid for it, but then again it also means that they have effectively disarmed themselves. Even if it is a Personal focus and so cannot be used against them, there is still a pretty good chance that the bad guys now have their focus.

 

Personally, I'll go with the rules as written on this one, at least as a default. Obviously YMMV.

[Maur]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

You don't pay the points for the car you throw because you aren't guaranteed that it will be there or you won't be able to replace it once you throw it. Using TK to attack with a weapon of opportunity would be the same way. With enough STR in TK one could lift up items of opportunity to drop on opponents just as the brick can throw what he finds around him with his STR. The problem is, even if you have the needed WF I would think you'd still need "fine manipulation" or you can't get a grasp on it with your mind to wield it effectively. Without "fine manipulation" how do you know how to grasp the hilt of a sword and keep the blade rotated so you are swinging the cutting edge with your TK. You could still bludgeon someone to death with the item just from STR and mass of the object.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Telekinesis with Weapons, +STR?

 

Personally' date=' I'll go with the rules as written on this one, at least as a default. Obviously YMMV.[/quote']

 

Personally, I do go with the rules as written. It just seems we disagree on what those rules mean in a superheroic campaign.