Mental

[Sean Waters]

I was thinking the other day, always a problem...

 

If I buy 'invisible to mental senses' I can still be hit by a mind control or ego attack. Arguably a mind scan or telepathy might have problems as they are sort of senses, but even then those powers do not use mental senses to target - you use any old targetting sense - usually normal sight. Obviously mind scan has its own targetting abilities which DO allow targetting of someone you can't see, and that does require a mental sense so mental sense invisibility would be effective against that. Sort of.

 

I'm not sure I have a point, but it just feels wrong, when you think about it. I might house rule that to use mental powers at all you need some sort of targeting mental sense.

 

Maybe I've just being unnecessarily obtuse, but that would feel better to me. Is this resonating with anyone?

[Markdoc]

Re: Mental

 

I was thinking the other day, always a problem...

 

If I buy 'invisible to mental senses' I can still be hit by a mind control or ego attack. Arguably a mind scan or telepathy might have problems as they are sort of senses, but even then those powers do not use mental senses to target - you use any old targetting sense - usually normal sight. Obviously mind scan has its own targetting abilities which DO allow targetting of someone you can't see, and that does require a mental sense so mental sense invisibility would be effective against that. Sort of.

 

I'm not sure I have a point, but it just feels wrong, when you think about it. I might house rule that to use mental powers at all you need some sort of targeting mental sense.

 

Maybe I've just being unnecessarily obtuse, but that would feel better to me. Is this resonating with anyone?

 

Not really, no. Firelass can fry someone she can see. If she's attacking someone with invisibility to normal sight, she can shoot at - if at a minus - them if she can divine their location by hearing, or by touching. If she had IR "heatvision", she could shoot him cleanly as well - the benefit of having a second targetting sense. Being invisible doesn't mean you can't be shot at.

 

I'm not sure why Mentalmidget should have the ability to zap someone with his Ego attack unless he buys an extra sense. The extra sense usually means that you can attack someone you couldn't normally see.

 

Right now invisibility to mental senses blocks the ability to find someone using ... well, mental senses. That means mindscan primarily. It's a targetting sense as well as providing other utility, but I guess telepathy could also be affected in some circumstances (for example, "attacking" a region you couldn't see to try and catch stray thoughts - I'd use the invisibility rules for that). It would also affect other powers/sense defined as belonging to the mental group such as detects or (for example) clairsentience bought as a mental power (looking through another's eyes by "telepathy") for example.

 

So this sort of exception really doesn't bother me. Certainly it's less irritating than DEX-based SPD for for mental actions (and yes, I know, but I don't use the optional rules - they're a pain)

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: Mental

 

You get Mental Awareness for free when you buy any Mental Power; so, the "extra" sense is kind of covered.

 

Invisibility to Mental Senses in most campaigns might as well just be written as "Immunity to Mindscan", though it also covers other senses purchased as part of the Mental sense group (most notably some SFX of Danger Sense and Spatial Awareness).

 

Personally, I don't mind extending Invisibility to Mental Senses to something like Telepathy, but Steve once ruled that it didn't apply when I asked him the question.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Mental

 

Interesting discussion. I have thought about the mental sense group alot while performing munchkinry...err, villain design.

 

Would a Mental Sense group Flash or Darkness affect the victim's OECV when attacking with mental powers? Would it affect the victim's DECV when defending against mental powers?

[OddHat]

Re: Mental

 

Interesting discussion. I have thought about the mental sense group alot while performing munchkinry...err, villain design.

 

Would a Mental Sense group Flash or Darkness affect the victim's OECV when attacking with mental powers? Would it affect the victim's DECV when defending against mental powers?

 

Nope, not as long as he has Line of Sight. However, both are great defenses against Mind Scan or special Mental Senses.

 

In most campaigns, those powers won't mean much; in a Psionics heavy campaign, they'll be very useful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

Not really, no. Firelass can fry someone she can see. If she's attacking someone with invisibility to normal sight, she can shoot at - if at a minus - them if she can divine their location by hearing, or by touching. If she had IR "heatvision", she could shoot him cleanly as well - the benefit of having a second targetting sense. Being invisible doesn't mean you can't be shot at.

 

I'm not sure why Mentalmidget should have the ability to zap someone with his Ego attack unless he buys an extra sense. The extra sense usually means that you can attack someone you couldn't normally see.

 

Right now invisibility to mental senses blocks the ability to find someone using ... well, mental senses. That means mindscan primarily. It's a targeting sense as well as providing other utility, but I guess telepathy could also be affected in some circumstances (for example, "attacking" a region you couldn't see to try and catch stray thoughts - I'd use the invisibility rules for that). It would also affect other powers/sense defined as belonging to the mental group such as detects or (for example) clairsentience bought as a mental power (looking through another's eyes by "telepathy") for example.

 

So this sort of exception really doesn't bother me. Certainly it's less irritating than DEX-based SPD for for mental actions (and yes, I know, but I don't use the optional rules - they're a pain)

 

cheers, Mark

 

If you imagine the genre, in any of its incarnations - written fiction (think Julian May or Peter Hamilton) or any of the miriad characters from comics with mental powers, line of (normal) sight just does not figure unless there is some sort of eye-contact-hypnotism.

 

In any number of illustrations of the use of mental powers I have seen, the user has their eyes shut! Given that you can not see a mind with normal sight, the idea that you can target one with normal sight is very odd to me. I mean, you can 'see' where your mental power is going with mental awareness, sure, but you can buy the powers without menatla awareness and still target without any kind of penalty.

 

It seems to me that the system is dictacting how this works for convenience sake. it would make far more sense to me to have to target mental powers with a mental targetting sense. That would cost no more than 15 points to tack onto mental awareness to allow you to 'see' minds (+5 points - extra group - minds (arguably this should be a seperate 10 point detect) and +10 point sofr targetting))

 

Alternatively you could assume that mental powers come with an appropriate targettiung sense but can ONLY use mental senses to target, unless they have an adder to allow other targetting senses to be effective.

 

Ultimately Hero should not be making decisions for mechanical reasons that are not necessary. At present any attack can be targeted with any targeting sense, but that is very often not genre appropriate.

 

I don't want to come over too strident about this - I've lived with it for years - but it occurred to me recently and won;t seem to sink back below the surface...and I know what you mean about SPD

[pinecone]

Re: Mental

 

I was thinking the other day, always a problem...

 

If I buy 'invisible to mental senses' I can still be hit by a mind control or ego attack. Arguably a mind scan or telepathy might have problems as they are sort of senses, but even then those powers do not use mental senses to target - you use any old targetting sense - usually normal sight. Obviously mind scan has its own targetting abilities which DO allow targetting of someone you can't see, and that does require a mental sense so mental sense invisibility would be effective against that. Sort of.

 

I'm not sure I have a point, but it just feels wrong, when you think about it. I might house rule that to use mental powers at all you need some sort of targeting mental sense.

 

Maybe I've just being unnecessarily obtuse, but that would feel better to me. Is this resonating with anyone?

Not me man...It makes ya invisable to a targetting sense, if the dude has another targetting sense he can use it...if you want to avoid line of Sight attacks buy Invis to Sight as well..

[Maccabe]

Re: Mental

 

If you are trying to find away to be invisible to mental powers, such as you have mentioned, why not buy Mental Defense or DECV levels.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

If you are trying to find away to be invisible to mental powers' date=' such as you have mentioned, why not buy Mental Defense or DECV levels.[/quote']

 

Well, first it is hardly invisibility, no matter what label you place on the sfx, and being invisible is, well, impossible in Hero given that you can always dream up a new unusual group and build a sense from scratch.

 

You could do this:

 

I can see him, but I can't sense his mind: Invisibility to Sight Group , No Fringe, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness: Only v mental powers (-1 1/2)

 

24 real points, 60 active

 

...but that is kinda circumventing the point.

 

Why (this is the point) should all targeting senses work to target all powers? I mean, you can not see a mind, why should you be able to target one with normal sight? Targeting lacks diffentiation, and granularity, and in a toolkit, that is not a good thing.

 

I'm thinking, now I think on it, of having different levels of the targeting adder, or introducing in a pretty widespread way, limited versions of it.

 

So, targeting would be 10 points for a sense, and that would allow you to target with any power.

 

Generally though you'd buy targeting as:

 

Targeting 10 points Only for mental powers -1: 5 real points

 

Normal sight would be assumed to be targeting (10 points) not for mental powers -1/4: 8 points. You could spend that extra 2 points, of course, to allow you to target with mental powers.

 

In fact it makes me wonder why mental powers give mental awareness away for free. Does that make sense to anyone?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Mental

 

This thing has been bugging me too... for years actually. One of my characters has Invis: Mental Group (and everything else, but that particular one is Always On).

 

What we did is you can Target a character with Invis: Mental with most things. But anything that actually has to "read" the mind either simply fails or has massive trouble. Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind Link all have issues. Mind Link and Mind Scan in particular cannot connect.

 

It's worked well so far.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Mental

 

Why (this is the point) should all targeting senses work to target all powers? I mean' date=' you can not see a mind, why should you be able to target one with normal sight? Targeting lacks diffentiation, and granularity, and in a toolkit, that is not a good thing.[/quote']

 

Because if you can see the person, you can make a mental thrust RIGHT THERE. If I have targetting echolocation but my target is invisible to sight, I may not be able to eyeball-aim my plasma gun on him, but I know exactly where he is, so all I have to do is shoot into 'that space right there'. Conversely, if target #2 is 'invisible to hearing', but I can see him with vision, then I can STILL put my sonic scream into 'that space right there'.

 

This only becomes a 'problem' when you can NOT put a Mk. I eyeball on the target; then you need to rely on your 'mental sense' to smack your man.

 

It relies in part on how the mechanics work -- penalties to OCV if the target is 'invisible' to all their targeting senses, no penalties if they have at least ONE sense they can target with. If, however, you want to be a lot harder to strike, buy up your defensive ECV. +5 Ego, Only for Defensive ECV (-1), Only When Invisible to Mental Senses (-1/2 to -1). If the character is ALWAYS Invisible, just leave off the last part. Or '+1 D-ECV (5 Active Points)'. Slippery mind and all.

 

-- Edit

 

I'll note that if you WANT your invisibility to be an actual defense against something -- Dazzler has an 'Invisibility to Hearing' being written up as 'absorbing all sound', for example -- then you should acquire appropriate Armor, Force Field, or Absorption. If you want your Mental Invisibility to completely block off their ability to telepathically probe you even when they can see you physically, boost your D-ECV and/or buy Mental Defense.

[rmccarty4]

Re: Mental

 

Sounds like a house rule:

Mental Attacks (Telepathy, Mind Control, Ego Attack, & probably most powers bought BOECV) must use Mind Scan first. Scanning the particular hex where the target is seems like a pretty small area to scan , and it sounds like the Linked Limitation applies.

 

Another house rule option is that Mental Attack powers must use a "Detect/Sense Mind" (or perhaps an extension of Mental Awareness?), purchased as a Targeting sense, and that the Mental Attack powers aren't based on line-of-sight, but the Detect/Sense Mind.

 

Either of these options would allow the Invisibility to Mental senses to work as you desire, and allow for the mentalist to have his or her eyes closed while performing the attack, BTW -- and that could be a further Limitation: Concentrate, 0 DCV.

[casualplayer]

Re: Mental

 

All comes down to whether Mental Sense is passive or active. If passive, they emit and you receive and Invisibility to Mental Sense would actually be Does Not Broadcast (Perceivable) Mental Waves. If active, you send out mental waves which interact with receptive minds and convey information back to you, which makes Invisibility to Mental Sense more like Invisibility to Normal Sight. One of the umpteen reasons why Mental Awareness should be constructed from scratch rather than gifted with the possession of mental powers. The individual should decide rather than being force-fed a method of perceiving mental waves, because then you know better what would and would not be able to deceive and what other senses might be able to be used for targetting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

Because if you can see the person' date=' you can make a mental thrust [b']RIGHT THERE[/b]. If I have targetting echolocation but my target is invisible to sight, I may not be able to eyeball-aim my plasma gun on him, but I know exactly where he is, so all I have to do is shoot into 'that space right there'. Conversely, if target #2 is 'invisible to hearing', but I can see him with vision, then I can STILL put my sonic scream into 'that space right there'.

 

This only becomes a 'problem' when you can NOT put a Mk. I eyeball on the target; then you need to rely on your 'mental sense' to smack your man.

 

It relies in part on how the mechanics work -- penalties to OCV if the target is 'invisible' to all their targeting senses, no penalties if they have at least ONE sense they can target with. If, however, you want to be a lot harder to strike, buy up your defensive ECV. +5 Ego, Only for Defensive ECV (-1), Only When Invisible to Mental Senses (-1/2 to -1). If the character is ALWAYS Invisible, just leave off the last part. Or '+1 D-ECV (5 Active Points)'. Slippery mind and all.

 

-- Edit

 

I'll note that if you WANT your invisibility to be an actual defense against something -- Dazzler has an 'Invisibility to Hearing' being written up as 'absorbing all sound', for example -- then you should acquire appropriate Armor, Force Field, or Absorption. If you want your Mental Invisibility to completely block off their ability to telepathically probe you even when they can see you physically, boost your D-ECV and/or buy Mental Defense.

 

 

Hmm. Maybe. If your Ego Attack works by firing a beam of rapidly oscillating frequencies designed to interfere with any brain, then yes, you can target it with normal sight but, to be honest, that does not really sound like a mental attack to me.

 

If, on the other hand you have an Ego Attack that sets up an interference pattern in your targets (specifc) brainyou would need to eb able to sense the thought patterns or at least some sort of feedback from teh brain to now if it is working. That could not be targeted with normal sight.

 

Unfortunately because normal sight is a set part of every character, unless you take a disadvantage, it is difficult to build an Ego Attack that HAS to be targeted using mental senses.

[OddHat]

Re: Mental

 

Unfortunately because normal sight is a set part of every character, unless you take a disadvantage, it is difficult to build an Ego Attack that HAS to be targeted using mental senses.

 

Treat Mental Awareness as part of the Sight Group rather than the Mental Group, or as both for a -0 limit. Now it's Ranged and Targeting, but can't see through anything that blocks Line of Sight. It's still free with Mental powers. You are now targeting with your Mental Awareness. To do so when blinded, you'll need to purchase it again outside of your Sight Group. People with mental powers that don't give Mental Awareness are assumed to have powers that can target without it, as per the standard rules (and it is appropriate; such powers are usually vs CON anyway, and represent drugs and such).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

Treat Mental Awareness as part of the Sight Group rather than the Mental Group' date=' or as both for a -0 limit. Now it's Ranged and Targeting, but can't see through anything that blocks Line of Sight. It's still free with Mental powers. You are now targeting with your Mental Awareness. To do so when blinded, you'll need to purchase it again outside of your Sight Group. People with mental powers that don't give Mental Awareness are assumed to have powers that can target without it, as per the standard rules (and it is appropriate; such powers are usually vs CON anyway, and represent drugs and such).[/quote']

 

I like that a lot, it makes a great deal of sense. I'm not sure it quite does what I'm after though: if I want to buy (say) telepathy that HAS to be targeted with a mental targeting sense (which I'dd obviously have to buy) how would I do that? A disadvantage? A limitation on telepathy?

[Markdoc]

Re: Mental

 

If you imagine the genre, in any of its incarnations - written fiction (think Julian May or Peter Hamilton) or any of the miriad characters from comics with mental powers, line of (normal) sight just does not figure unless there is some sort of eye-contact-hypnotism.

 

SNIP

 

Ultimately Hero should not be making decisions for mechanical reasons that are not necessary. At present any attack can be targeted with any targeting sense, but that is very often not genre appropriate.

 

Yep, you nailed it here. Basically, this is a special effect thing: which is why it doesn't figure in the hero rules. It's why I gave a mechanistic answer. Mind control uses the same attack rules (including targeting) as EB, because all attacks use the same basic attack rules.

 

If you wanted to change it - and I can see why you might - then sure, houserule or (my preference) limit the mental attack powers.

 

I like that a lot' date=' it makes a great deal of sense. I'm not sure it quite does what I'm after though: if I want to buy (say) telepathy that HAS to be targeted with a mental targeting sense (which I'dd obviously have to buy) how would I do that? A disadvantage? A limitation on telepathy?[/quote']

 

A limitation on telepathy (or any other mental power). I'd give it a -1/2, since it works similarly to linked (ie: you need your mental sight to work to be able to use power X) and the limitation would match off with (for example) buying your Ego attack linked to Mindscan. I wouldn't give it more simply because although it means you lose the use of sight as a targeting sense for these powers, that doesn't really inconvenience you if you have another targeting power readily available - and unlike linked, you would not have to use it when you were using your mental sense (which seems a fair tradeoff)

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

.......................

 

 

 

A limitation on telepathy (or any other mental power). I'd give it a -1/2, since it works similarly to linked (ie: you need your mental sight to work to be able to use power X) and the limitation would match off with (for example) buying your Ego attack linked to Mindscan. I wouldn't give it more simply because although it means you lose the use of sight as a targeting sense for these powers, that doesn't really inconvenience you if you have another targeting power readily available - and unlike linked, you would not have to use it when you were using your mental sense (which seems a fair tradeoff)

 

cheers, Mark

 

I like the thinking but it does seem generous. You can build an entire mental targeting sense (sense minds (abstract concept) 12 points + targeting 10 points for 22 points total). A 60 point Ego Attack with a -1/2 limitation saves 20 points. Even if you only allow the -1/4 (greater power linked) limitation you save 12 points, and if you have an EC with 3 or more mental powers you are quids in for what in practice is likely to be quite a limited limitation (if you see what I mean) - obviously you can only affect things with minds and mental flashes are pretty rare*.

 

Still, lots to think on and some very good points - thank all of you for your input. I'd be interested to hear any further thoughts.

 

 

* Mind you, 'does not provide mental awareness' - a 7 point power - is a -1/4 limitation on mental powers too. Never did understand that....

[OddHat]

Re: Mental

 

I like that a lot' date=' it makes a great deal of sense. I'm not sure it quite does what I'm after though: if I want to buy (say) telepathy that HAS to be targeted with a mental targeting sense (which I'dd obviously have to buy) how would I do that? A disadvantage? A limitation on telepathy?[/quote']

 

-0 Limit on Telepathy, since under my suggestion you still get that Targeting Mental Awareness for free when you purchase mental powers. The only in game difference it makes is that Darkness or Flash vs the Mental Group now means something serious. -1/4 limit if you have to buy the sense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental

 

-0 Limit on Telepathy' date=' since under my suggestion you still get that Targeting Mental Awareness for free when you purchase mental powers. The only in game difference it makes is that Darkness or Flash vs the Mental Group now means something serious. -1/4 limit if you have to buy the sense.[/quote']

 

Sounds eminently reasonable

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Mental

 

Nice house rule. I wouldn't overall agree with it, mainly because mental powers are typically uncommon, but in a game that's psychic-centric, yeah...