quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

[Duke Bushido]

In the spirit of Sean's recent posts on refiguring and restructuring some of the basics, I've taken the spark to evaluate some of my own House Rules.

 

This one has been around since the Damage Resistance began showing up with some regularity in our play.

 

It seems to make no difference in pricing, and eliminates the headaches of "oh; I have to buy it for this part, too."

 

We dumped Damage Resistance in favor of a +1/2 Advantage: Resistant. It works exactly the same; it makes bookkeeping easier. It also makes the rationale easier to place it on 'unusual' builds.

 

Are we the only ones doing that?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

I've never put it in practice but it does make sense.

 

The only real issue is how to keep the current cost structure of Hardened in place. RAW require Hardened be purchased on normal defenses as well as the Damage Resistance power itself. You might be able to make it balance out by using something like the additional +1 for Autofire when combined with non-standard or AOE attacks.

[ghost-angel]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

I've never put it in practice but it does make sense.

 

The only real issue is how to keep the current cost structure of Hardened in place. RAW require Hardened be purchased on normal defenses as well as the Damage Resistance power itself. You might be able to make it balance out by using something like the additional +1 for Autofire when combined with non-standard or AOE attacks.

 

Well, if Damage Resistance is being treated as an Advantage for PD/ED/etc then the existing rule would be moot.

 

To make it Hardened you'd simply add the Hardened Advantage on top of the Damage Resistance Advantage. Since technically Damage Res is now an Advantage applied directly to your PD, so would Hardened.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Well, if Damage Resistance is being treated as an Advantage for PD/ED/etc then the existing rule would be moot.

 

To make it Hardened you'd simply add the Hardened Advantage on top of the Damage Resistance Advantage. Since technically Damage Res is now an Advantage applied directly to your PD, so would Hardened.

 

Sure, but then Hardening defenses with Damage Resistance becomes cheaper than RAW.

 

example:

(assuming a character with base 10 PD/ED*)

 

by RAW

DR 10 PD/ED costs 10 points

 

To harden the defenses you have to buy Hardened on the normal defenses and DR

 

*Hardened Advantage for Normal Defenses (Naked) costs 5 points

Hardened for DR costs 2 points

Total 17* points for 10/10 Resistant and Hardened Defenses

 

by proposed house rule

DR still costs 10 points but is purchased as a Naked Advantage which can then be hardened itself for 2 points.

Total 12# points for 10/10 Resistant and Hardened Defenses

 

(# unless you keep the current rule that base defenses must be hardened separately before DR can be hardened at which point you are essentially using RAW.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Yeah, but is that really an issue? Sure it's "cheaper" but does that actually matter?

 

The only major difference, and this could be very important - if you can't turn an Advantage off. You have no non-Resistant Defenses if you buy a Damage Resistance Advantage for all your PD you only have rPD where as you could, theoretically, turn off your Damage Resistance Power.

 

Not sure how much that matters either though.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Yeah, but is that really an issue? Sure it's "cheaper" but does that actually matter?

 

The only major difference, and this could be very important - if you can't turn an Advantage off. You have no non-Resistant Defenses if you buy a Damage Resistance Advantage for all your PD you only have rPD where as you could, theoretically, turn off your Damage Resistance Power.

 

Not sure how much that matters either though.

 

It only matters with regard to Find Weakness as it might change the way it interacts with Damage Resistance. RAW treats defenses that are resistant due to DR as 'non-resistant' vs FW*.

 

*(Only defenses provided by Armor, Force Field and Force Wall are considered 'resistant' vs. Find Weakness)

[Sean Waters]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

So 10 pd = 10 points

10 pd with damage resistance = 15 points

10 pd with damage resistance, all hardened = 19 points

 

Built with advantages:

So 10 pd = 10 points

10 pd with damage resistance = 15 points

10 pd with damage resistance, all hardened = 18 points

 

The cost difference is small but quite significant - it makes the purchase of hardened 'armour' (the power) obsolete, unless you are trying to be cunning about find weakness.

 

I like the idea in principle though - I'll need to think on it a bit more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

It only matters with regard to Find Weakness as it might change the way it interacts with Damage Resistance. RAW treats defenses that are resistant due to DR as 'non-resistant' vs FW*.

 

*(Only defenses provided by Armor, Force Field and Force Wall are considered 'resistant' vs. Find Weakness)

 

I must practice posting quicker

[archermoo]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

It only matters with regard to Find Weakness as it might change the way it interacts with Damage Resistance. RAW treats defenses that are resistant due to DR as 'non-resistant' vs FW*.

 

*(Only defenses provided by Armor, Force Field and Force Wall are considered 'resistant' vs. Find Weakness)

 

Well, unless there was a FAQ entry I missed, that is kind of the inverse of what the rules actually state. It just says that PD and ED are considered to be "Normal" defenses even if they have Damage Resistance applied to them. So it isn't "only these powers are considered Resistant" but "These Characteristics are considered Normal even if they have Damage Resistance".

 

Somewhat of a nitpick, but then again the point was a nitpick to begin with.

[Sean Waters]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

I have long been confused about the interaction of Find Weakness with mechanically defined defences.

 

I could probably have stopped that sentence after the fifth word, couldn't I?

 

I do take Hyper-Man's point though there is a difference in practice between armour and pd/ed+DR, and it mainly manifests in Find Weakness.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Thanks for the consideration, folks, sincerely

 

unforunately, I can't rep any of you again so soon :oops:

 

But your time is a-comin'

 

As Archermoo pointed out, given the rules of Find Weakness, it really doesn't make that big a difference. And Sean: the pricing "break" comes out later with our group: 23 rules cost Armor at 5pts/3DEF.

 

In a nutshell, that means that while the rest of you are paying 3/2 per DEF, we're paying 5/3. Put simply, 15 cp gets our characters 9 DEF, but it gets yours 10 DEF. With that in mind, the house rule may work better for us; there's no difference in cost until well beyond campaign limits

 

The thing that appealed was the ease of just tossing the Advantage in with other Advs and Lims and doing the math once in a single step.

 

As for "switchability," GA mentioned that it's kind of a non-issue, not being able to turn off an advantage on a DEF. And he's right; realistically, if you can turn the defense off, then the advantages are off with it For what it's worth-- and it seems I've posted this before--

 

we have a "switchable" advantage. Depending on genre and campaign limits, it's priced at 1/2 the value of the Advantage to be switched, or simply +1/4.

 

Math them out if you'd like, but in bookkeeping it was tidier than building two or three or four versions of a power with various advantage combos and sticking them all in a multipower. It's about having a good time, and sometimes simplicity helps that

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

As Archermoo pointed out, given the rules of Find Weakness, it really doesn't make that big a difference. And Sean: the pricing "break" comes out later with our group: 23 rules cost Armor at 5pts/3DEF.

 

In a nutshell, that means that while the rest of you are paying 3/2 per DEF, we're paying 5/3. Put simply, 15 cp gets our characters 9 DEF, but it gets yours 10 DEF. With that in mind, the house rule may work better for us; there's no difference in cost until well beyond campaign limits

 

[Historian Mode]In the earliest editions, Force Field cost 1 point per rDEF, just as it does now. Armor cost 5 points per 3rDEF, as DB's group continues to use. However, Damage Resistance cost 15 points to make half your PD and ED resistant, or 30 points to make them all resistant. For small amounts of rDEF, it was generally more cost-effective to buy some Armor, while larger amounts were best purchased as PD, ED and DamRes.[/Historian Mode]

[Sean Waters]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Thanks for the consideration, folks, sincerely

 

unforunately, I can't rep any of you again so soon :oops:

 

But your time is a-comin'

 

As Archermoo pointed out, given the rules of Find Weakness, it really doesn't make that big a difference. And Sean: the pricing "break" comes out later with our group: 23 rules cost Armor at 5pts/3DEF.

 

In a nutshell, that means that while the rest of you are paying 3/2 per DEF, we're paying 5/3. Put simply, 15 cp gets our characters 9 DEF, but it gets yours 10 DEF. With that in mind, the house rule may work better for us; there's no difference in cost until well beyond campaign limits

 

The thing that appealed was the ease of just tossing the Advantage in with other Advs and Lims and doing the math once in a single step.

 

As for "switchability," GA mentioned that it's kind of a non-issue, not being able to turn off an advantage on a DEF. And he's right; realistically, if you can turn the defense off, then the advantages are off with it For what it's worth-- and it seems I've posted this before--

 

we have a "switchable" advantage. Depending on genre and campaign limits, it's priced at 1/2 the value of the Advantage to be switched, or simply +1/4.

 

Math them out if you'd like, but in bookkeeping it was tidier than building two or three or four versions of a power with various advantage combos and sticking them all in a multipower. It's about having a good time, and sometimes simplicity helps that

 

Struck me as I was reading your 'switchable' advantage that you could kinda do this with a (limited group) variable advantage advantage (yes there should be two) where you define one of the 'advantage slots' as 'empty - i.e. no advantage.

 

Typically the cost is double the advantage cost, -1/4 for limited group, ad you could have 'very limited group' i.e. just two states for -1/2.

 

Just a thought. Please do feel free to resume normal transmission

[Sean Waters]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

[Historian Mode]In the earliest editions' date=' Force Field cost 1 point per rDEF, just as it does now. Armor cost 5 points per 3rDEF, as DB's group continues to use. However, Damage Resistance cost 15 points to make half your PD and ED resistant, or 30 points to make them all resistant. For small amounts of rDEF, it was generally more cost-effective to buy some Armor, while larger amounts were best purchased as PD, ED and DamRes.[/Historian Mode']

 

Ah, nostalgia: a thing of the past

[Duke Bushido]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

I agree with you on the variable advantage thing, Sean.

 

But with a multipower, particularly with Ultras, you can build numerous 'versions' of a power for significantly less than (the power with the value of the advantages you want to switch amongst) x2.

 

That, and 2e: there was no Variable. By the time there was, we'd had "switchable" well-entrenched in our play. Even after Variable, we kept switchable, simply because sometimes you don't want to pay for the ability to do things your conception doesn't warrant; sometimes you just want to turn off your Area Effect.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Personally Ive been more prone to treat Damage Resistance as an Adder for PD / ED, which is how it actually behaves.

 

However, a +1/2 Advantage works as well. There are price differences, but as Ghost-angel says, it's a trivial matter and I would just decide "so be it" if I were to go the advantage route.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

Thanks for participating.

 

Have you actually made it an Adder in your games? If so, what differences have you noticed in construction, or even attitude toward the power.

 

That last one sounds 'odd,' so let me explain:

 

Some years ago, we were reworking character sheets-- trying to clean stuff up, change groupings, etc.

 

One thing that was changed then was the Presence: only to protect against Presence Attacks And Ego Defense (mental defense, I believe in the newer additions) were made into base-zero characteristics rather than left as powers.

 

In game play, this made no actual difference:

they could be drained the same, they could be used the same, they cost the same-- etc.

 

But having them grouped into the Characteristics made a considerable change in the attitude of the players. While Presence: only to defend was a fairly common build in our games before hand, ego defense was pretty rare, and had been almost exclusive to mentalists, mystics, holy characters, and a handful of assorted 'unique' characters.

 

Once they appeared as Characteristics, however, Presence Defense was bought even more commonly, and at somewhat higher levels, and it was a rare character who wasn't boasting at least five points of Ego Defense...

[Killer Shrike]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

No, I use HD so its easiest to use Damage Resistance as its designed as a separate power, but mentally I think of it as being like a "Naked Adder".

[SteveZilla]

Re: quick dumb question on Damage Resistance:

 

So 10 pd = 10 points

10 pd with damage resistance = 15 points

10 pd with damage resistance, all hardened = 19 points

 

Built with advantages:

So 10 pd = 10 points

10 pd with damage resistance = 15 points

10 pd with damage resistance, all hardened = 18 points

 

The cost difference is small but quite significant - it makes the purchase of hardened 'armour' (the power) obsolete, unless you are trying to be cunning about find weakness.

 

I like the idea in principle though - I'll need to think on it a bit more.

 

Built with advantages, 10 pd with damage resistance, all hardened, would cost 17.5, which rounds down to 17, yes?

 

And a two point savings is enough to buy a +1 OCV with one attack...