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Clinging, UAA


Tonio

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I'm unsure as to exactly what this does. I'm sure it can be used to prevent someone from getting knocked back, to have someone stick to a wall (if they're put there, for example), all against their will... but will it, for example, prevent them from running? flying off? (unless they make a STR roll and break out of Clinging, of course... probably adding Flight points as STR for purposes of the roll)

 

Or would I need a transparent-to-damage Entangle (Only to prevent movement, -1? -1.5? -2?), a running/flight/etc. suppress, or some other construct?

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Well, when using UAA, the base Clinging STR is 10, not Character's nor Target's, as per 5ER, which helps balance it out, I guess. I do understand it can be used offensively (that's basically the whole point behind UAA!), and I did understand the 'tar baby' DS, but I'm still unsure as to whether hitting someone with Clinging, UAA will make them stick to the ground in such a way that they can't move along it, not just off it (i.e. will it root them in place, or just prevent leaping?), and whether they can use other movement powers (e.g. Flight) to "unstick" automatically, or do they have to "break" the Clinging with STR (if so, I'd think it appropriate to add or substitute Flight points as STR points for this).

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

You can use it offensively (see the power description re 'tar baby' damage shield)' date=' but personally I'd consider UAA abusive, and wouldn't allow it: For 40 points you could have a UAA Clinging that with a strength of (Target STR + 30).[/quote']

 

Not quite. UAA doesn't change it to the target's STR. If it were UBO, then it would be the target's STR and not yours.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Well' date=' when using UAA, the base Clinging STR is 10, not Character's nor Target's, as per 5ER, which helps balance it out, I guess.[/quote']

 

I don't recall this change. I'll double-check myself when I get home.

 

I do understand it can be used offensively (that's basically the whole point behind UAA!)' date=' and I did understand the 'tar baby' DS, but I'm still unsure as to whether hitting someone with Clinging, UAA will make them stick to the ground in such a way that they can't move [i']along[/i] it, not just off it (i.e. will it root them in place, or just prevent leaping?), and whether they can use other movement powers (e.g. Flight) to "unstick" automatically, or do they have to "break" the Clinging with STR (if so, I'd think it appropriate to add or substitute Flight points as STR points for this).

 

Clinging UAA will IMO prevent the character from moving from that location unless they win a STR vs. STR contest. However, while "stuck" they IMO retain their full DCV and attack abilities that don't depend upon movement.

 

There are (optional) rules in 5ER for adding movement inches (in some ratio) to a character's STR.

 

If the character can Teleport, this wouldn't automatically free him from the UAA Clinging. Though if the Teleporter can teleport to a location where he is not touching a solid surface (say that he can also fly), the UAA Clinging becomes moot -- until he touches a surface again.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'm still not happy: first we have to clarify what STR we start with as a base: 10, your STR, the target's STR - it is not clear to me (but then I'm not that bright...)

 

Even if it is10 STR, because +3 STR for clinging is 1 point, you spend 60 points (10 for clinging +20 for +60 STR and the whole thing UAA +1) you have a 70 STR 'cling' for 60 points - far more than, say TK could manage. Far more effective than an englobing FW or an equivalent entangle.

 

Then we ask: can it stick a target in place, or just prevent them leaving the surface? I'd have voted for the latter, but the 'tar baby effect' (which is why I mentioned it) suggests official sanction for a 'stick in place' mechanic. however, that could just be that they can move whereever they like over YOU :)

 

Personally I'd be inclined to rule, if I did allow it, that it prevented you leaving a surface, but did not prevent you moving ON that surface.

 

On the TP thing I'd rule it would free the target: you can use TP to escape entangles, for instance, but that is a judgement call: allowing it adds another layer of unwarranted utility though.

 

If someone came to me with this I'd tell them to use entangle. Having said all that, I am a terrible scaremongering skinflint.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I've actually used Clinging UAA in a game - in fact two of the PCs of posters here (Fitz and Sir O'Feelya) were on the receiving end. It is a potentially powerful effect, but not unbalancing. Although cheaper than TK or englobing FW when it comes to trapping someone, it is also far weaker - TK lets you do damage, throw stuff around, etc. FW totally seals the victim away. This power lets you stop them moving, or attach them to stuff, but that's all.

 

You can, if inventive, do some fun stuff with it (for example, target a focus with the power so they stick to IT, when they grab it and it sticks to other things, stick two PCs together when they try to combine STR to pull free, etc). But given the cost, (you need to add UAA and ranged to make it truly effective) I don't think the power is unbalancing.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to take your word for it being balanced in play: it looks to me that a combination of this power and even a rudimentary tactical approach could be devastating - even adding in range, you can muster 52 STR (assuming you start at 10) and, unlike entangle or FW there is no obvious way to escape the power apart from brute strength. You can say the same of TK, but for the same active points, you can only manage 40 STR. That is a big difference.

 

In addition, because it is a cheap power to start with, adding in AOE, for example, is pretty cheap too: you can manage over 30 STR with a radius AoE! Even more devastating might be to add 'Sticky'...

 

Moreover, and far more fundamentally, you are changing what the power does. Clinging allows the person using it (whether they want to use it or not) to move about freely on any surface, even a vertical or upside down one. One specific prohibition with UAA is imposing a limited form of a power, so you can't increase someone's density without increasing their strength and you can't force clinging on them but take away their ability to move about on the surface they are clinging to.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Moreover' date=' and far more fundamentally, you are changing what the power does. Clinging allows the person using it (whether they want to use it or not) to move about freely on any surface, even a vertical or upside down one. One specific prohibition with UAA is imposing a limited form of a power, so you can't increase someone's density without increasing their strength and you can't force clinging on them but take away their ability to move about on the surface they are clinging to.[/quote']

 

I'm with Sean. Clinging UAA would simply allow you to force someone to accept the benefits and drawbacks of Clinging. Since there are no drawbacks, the target would only be forced to accept the benefits.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to disagree. Consider Flight, UAA. Target "gains" the ability to fly, but the character with the power gets to control the flight itself. Now consider Flight, as is. You can certainly choose to fly at 1", even if your Flight is much higher. You can also choose to land softly, without taking damage, and to fly up to a wall without crashing into it. Does this mean that with Flight UAA you can't "force" the target to fly, and can't fly them into walls?

 

I'd say Clinging works the same way. While it's working, you're stuck to the surface. If you control the power, you can turn it off to leave the surface, including turning it off momentarily to lift your foot (or whatever), then turning it back on when you set your foot down. If you can't control it, then you can't leave the surface, even to move along it. That's why you get KB resitance from Clinging.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to disagree. Consider Flight, UAA. Target "gains" the ability to fly, but the character with the power gets to control the flight itself. Now consider Flight, as is. You can certainly choose to fly at 1", even if your Flight is much higher. You can also choose to land softly, without taking damage, and to fly up to a wall without crashing into it. Does this mean that with Flight UAA you can't "force" the target to fly, and can't fly them into walls?

 

I'd say Clinging works the same way. While it's working, you're stuck to the surface. If you control the power, you can turn it off to leave the surface, including turning it off momentarily to lift your foot (or whatever), then turning it back on when you set your foot down. If you can't control it, then you can't leave the surface, even to move along it. That's why you get KB resitance from Clinging.

 

What he said.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

When you buy something usable as an attack it presumes an offensive nature of the power. For example, teleport is a movement power that lets you go where you want... unless someone buys it as Usable As an Attack, in which case it teleports you where the controller wants you to go - it becomes an offensive power.

 

Clinging in this sense would force you to cling to anything you touched. Anything. Of course it would have no range and would cost END, so you'd have to buy a few advantages to make it really feasible tactically speaking, but it's a valid concept.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to disagree. Consider Flight' date=' UAA. Target "gains" the ability to fly, but the character with the power gets to control the flight itself. Now consider Flight, as is. You can certainly choose to fly at 1", even if your Flight is much higher. You can also choose to land softly, without taking damage, and to fly up to a wall without crashing into it. Does this mean that with Flight UAA you can't "force" the target to fly, and can't fly them into walls?[/quote']

 

I think you've got this exactly right. Flight allows movement. It can be used to fly into the ground or to a galaxy far, far away.

 

I'd say Clinging works the same way.

 

I think you've got this exactly wrong.

 

While it's working' date=' you're stuck to the surface.[/quote']

 

Not true. While it's working, you can walk on walls and ceilings. It also lets you resist knockback somewhat. It does not make you stick to a surface. You are absolutely free to move around.

 

If you control the power' date=' you can turn it off to leave the surface, including turning it off momentarily to lift your foot (or whatever), then turning it back on when you set your foot down. If you can't control it, then you can't leave the surface, even to move along it. That's why you get KB resitance from Clinging.[/quote']

 

I don't buy it. A character with Clinging does not turn the power on and off in order to be able to move their feet. They turn on the power and move around freely. That's it.

 

Having to turn your Clinging off every time you want to take a step would be a Limitation -- rather a serious one -- on the power. It is not standard.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

When you buy something usable as an attack it presumes an offensive nature of the power.

 

Not necessarily. You could buy Force Field UAA.

 

For example' date=' teleport is a movement power that lets you go where you want... unless someone buys it as Usable As an Attack, in which case it teleports you where the controller wants you to go - it becomes an offensive power.[/quote']

 

It becomes a movement power under the control of someone else. It may or may not be offensive. It could, for example, be used to teleport a baby out of the way of a speeding car. Not offensive in the least.

 

Clinging in this sense would force you to cling to anything you touched. Anything. Of course it would have no range and would cost END' date=' so you'd have to buy a few advantages to make it really feasible tactically speaking, but it's a valid concept.[/quote']

 

Again, I disagree. I don't have my book with me, but I'm unaware of anything in the power description for Clinging that says the person using this power has trouble moving around or putting things down. Just that they are able to move freely across walls and ceilings.

 

Buying Clinging UAA would allow you force other people to be able to move freely across walls and ceilings. They would also gain extra dice vs knockback. You could not control their movement because Clinging in and of itself does not provide movement. It only facilitates one's natural movement ability.

 

The only way to use Clinging UAA to cause damage to a target that I can think of would be to force someone to have the ability to walk on the ceiling, convince them to do so, then remove the ability to walk on the ceiling and watch them fall. Of course if they're that stupid, you could probably hurt them in lots of ways.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

UAA allows you to give a power to another character, and control how they use it.

 

It does not change the way the power works at all. Anything that the power can do, if you had it, you can make it do when you UAA it. Anything the power doesn't do, you can't make it do.

 

Let us look at the book definition of clinging: A character with clinging may stick to walls and sheer surfaces AND MOVE ON THEM AS IF THEY WERE LEVEL (my emphasis).

 

 

 

Finally, although I made the parallel, Clinging Damage Shield does something very different: it allows the user to stick to something: int hios case another character. It does not prevent either from moving whilst this happens: it prevents the 'stuck' character moving AWAY, unless they can break the cling, but it doesn't, for instance (assuming a very strong cling, but a weak tar baby) prevent the 'stuck' character from simply walking off with the tar baby still stuck to them.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

UAA allows you to give a power to another character' date=' and control how they use it.[/quote']

 

This part of your post (and ONLY this part of it) is absolutely correct.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

Chapter One

Page 143

 

A character with Clinging may cling to walls and sheer surfaces and move on them as if they were level. Some examples of Clinging include high-tech cling-grips used by climbers or insect-based wallcrawling powers. Clinging costs 10 Character Points. Clinging does not cost END to use, but the character must pay the usual END cost for any movement used.

 

While Clinging, a character can use his full STR to “stick” to the surface. He can increase this total above his normal STR: every +3 points of Clinging STR costs +1 Character Point. If another character wants to pull a Clinging character from a surface, he must exceed the character’s total Clinging STR in a STR Versus STR Contest; otherwise the character remains stuck. If the opponent does enough BODY damage with his STR to break whatever the character Clings to, that object might break (or, in the case of a large object such as a building, suff er damage in the hex where the character Clung to it). Other characters can never take damage from this, though — if two characters are stuck together with Clinging, and someone pulls them apart, the character being Clung to does not take damage.

 

The first sentence of the first paragraph describes two separate abilities. The second paragraph describes a 3rd separate ability. It is this last example that when combined with UAA becomes a form of "stay where you are" power.

 

example:

 

60 I've heard of Static Cling but that's ridiculous!: Clinging (70 STR), Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points) - END=0

 

Another character targeted by this ability needs to win a STR vs. STR contest to lift his legs (or move any other part of his body) when they are in contact with a surface. As previously pointed out, it's main effect is more powerful than TK (max of 40 STR on 60 active points) but it also has some built in limitations. It's useless vs. characters who are flying and the 'surface' being clinged to can be destroyed like an entangle to end the effect.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

This part of your post (and ONLY this part of it) is absolutely correct.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised

Chapter One

Page 143

 

 

 

The first sentence of the first paragraph describes two separate abilities. The second paragraph describes a 3rd separate ability. It is this last example that when combined with UAA becomes a form of "stay where you are" power.

 

example:

 

60 I've heard of Static Cling but that's ridiculous!: Clinging (70 STR), Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points) - END=0

 

Another character targeted by this ability needs to win a STR vs. STR contest to lift his legs (or move any other part of his body) when they are in contact with a surface. As previously pointed out, it's main effect is more powerful than TK (max of 40 STR on 60 active points) but it also has some built in limitations. It's useless vs. characters who are flying and the 'surface' being clinged to can be destroyed like an entangle to end the effect.

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree. The first sentence (the one I emphasised) appears to be clearly conjunctive: it describes a single ability, the ability to cling to walls etc and move about as normal. The movement is not really an ability of the clinging – if it were you could switch it off if you controlled it, and prevent movement – but it is not. We can argue about grammatical construction, but it comes down to this; clinging does not grant the ability to move normally, and nor does it take it away.

 

The second paragraph is – arguably – a separate ability. The phrasing makes it appear so. However I’d argue that this is simply a clarification of the above paragraph: the first tells you that you can cling, the second tells you how hard. The proof of that is that the second paragraph does not, anywhere, say that you have to be stationary to exercise your full clinging strength: the ability to move freely is not affected by the rule at all.

 

Also you say that it has significant disadvantages – it can only be used against someone on a surface. Not true. The ability can clearly be used to stick two characters together and, by extension could be used to stick parts of a character together. A flying blaster with his arms stuck this sides is going to be pretty useless. ‘Clinging’ someone’s teeth together would also be a useful way to prevent communication. Clinging their eyelids shut…but perhaps the point is made.

 

Waters, you go too far, I hear the cry. OK, proof of pudding then; think of an sfx that would fit the ability that wouldn’t allow limbs, teeth and eyes to be immobilised, or rendered useless.

 

Really, what clinches it for me though, is that, unlike UAA flight which is arguably different from TK in that it does not use a STR v STR mechanic (but even then I’d watch that construct like a hawk), this seems to be identical to a limited form of TK, but with a lower active point cost and, importantly, a much higher ‘effect’ within those active points. Basic Hero stuff: don’t use a construct to do what a power does.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

I'd have to take your word for it being balanced in play: it looks to me that a combination of this power and even a rudimentary tactical approach could be devastating - even adding in range' date=' you can muster 52 STR (assuming you start at 10) and, unlike entangle or FW there is no obvious way to escape the power apart from brute strength. You can say the same of TK, but for the same active points, you can only manage 40 STR. That is a big difference.[/quote']

 

It's a 2d6 difference - and with TK, not only is the person grabbed (hampering OCV and DCV and limiting their ability to utilise foci or many powers) but you can move them AND damage them at the same time (and that's ignoring all the other things you can do with TK). My take (since the rules were unclear) is that you actually start at 0 STR: the clinging you can add is the clinging you can add - you don't get a freebie 10 STR since the person affected is unlikely to be adding anything to it. At that point, it goes from being functionally different to TK and rather less useful, to being functionally different from TK and being very much less effective than TK, with the caveat below:

 

In addition' date=' because it is a cheap power to start with, adding in AOE, for example, is pretty cheap too: you can manage over 30 STR with a radius AoE! Even more devastating might be to add 'Sticky'...[/quote']

 

True - :D but because I am a merciful GM, I only used "sticky" in the adventure I referred to above :eg:

 

Moreover' date=' and far more fundamentally, you are changing what the power does. Clinging allows the person using it (whether they want to use it or not) to move about freely on any surface, even a vertical or upside down one. One specific prohibition with UAA is imposing a limited form of a power, so you can't increase someone's density without increasing their strength and you can't force clinging on them but take away their ability to move about on the surface they are clinging to.[/quote']

 

You say potato, I say potato... to me clinging allows you to stick to things. That is explicitly stated in the rules. Yes, you can certainly use it to move about on any surface - you could also (depending on special effect) use it to stick to a person who was trying to pull you off, to resist knockback, or hold onto the side of an escaping helicopter....

 

I'd agree that you can't alter the power, but sticking someone to something is explicity what the power does, and to me, the movement part comes from control of the power. After all, if you drain someone's running, they can't slither off using their clinging: movement is not an integral part of the power. It's just that with clinging under your personal control you can control how sticky you are.

 

Usable as attack is fundamentally different from Usable by others, which seems to be what you are describing.

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

\My take (since the rules were unclear) is that you actually start at 0 STR: the clinging you can add is the clinging you can add - you don't get a freebie 10 STR since the person affected is unlikely to be adding anything to it.

 

 

The rules ARE clear: When using UAA, the base STR is 10:

 

If a character buys Clinging

Usable As Attack, the base cost of Clinging (10

Character Points) buys him 10 STR (not his own

normal STR). He can then increase the Clinging

STR at the usual cost of +1 Character Point for

every +3 points of STR.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

It's a 2d6 difference - and with TK' date=' not only is the person grabbed (hampering OCV and DCV and limiting their ability to utilise foci or many powers) but you can move them AND damage them at the same time (and that's ignoring all the other things you can do with TK). My take (since the rules were unclear) is that you actually start at 0 STR: the clinging you can add is the clinging you can add - you don't get a freebie 10 STR since the person affected is unlikely to be adding anything to it. At that point, it goes from being functionally different to TK and rather less useful, to being functionally different from TK and being very much less effective than TK, with the caveat below:[/quote']

 

The moer dice you roll, the closer you tend to average figures, and 2d6 is quite a lot when you are rolling either 8d6 or 10d6.

 

 

 

True - :D but because I am a merciful GM' date=' I only used "sticky" in the adventure I referred to above :eg:[/quote']

 

Ah, mercy, that well know trait of GMs (and players) everywhere :sneaky:

 

 

 

You say potato, I say potato... to me clinging allows you to stick to things. That is explicitly stated in the rules. Yes, you can certainly use it to move about on any surface - you could also (depending on special effect) use it to stick to a person who was trying to pull you off, to resist knockback, or hold onto the side of an escaping helicopter....

 

I'd agree that you can't alter the power, but sticking someone to something is explicity what the power does, and to me, the movement part comes from control of the power. After all, if you drain someone's running, they can't slither off using their clinging: movement is not an integral part of the power. It's just that with clinging under your personal control you can control how sticky you are.

 

Usable as attack is fundamentally different from Usable by others, which seems to be what you are describing.

 

cheers, Mark

 

You say potato, I say that clinging does not in any way affect your ability to move on a surface you are clinging to. It is not just the pronunciation which is different.

 

The fact that if you stick to something then LOGIALLY that means you can't move is, given that we are talking Hero, irrelevant to my way of thinking. Clinging is like an adder to running that enables an element of vertical movement, but it has been around since before we had adders, so to make it a proper power what has happened is it has easter eggs added, like KBR. Talking logic: -1d6 KBR?What, if you have (say) 10 SR or 60 STR clinging? Eh?

 

Clinging is an example of where Hero strays from the true path: rather than being a concept power that, combined with other powers, can create what you want, it tries to round itself out. I may be sounding a little evangelical here, but this is important.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

The moer dice you roll' date=' the closer you tend to average figures, and 2d6 is quite a lot when you are rolling either 8d6 or 10d6.[/quote']

 

Sure - I'm simply pointing out that in exchange for that 2d6 (roughly a -1/4 lim.at the power level you're discussing) you get way, way more utillity with TK. So..... unbalanced? Not seeing it.

 

You say potato' date=' I say that clinging does not in any way affect your ability to move on a surface you are clinging to. It is not just the pronunciation which is different.[/quote']

 

Really? Having read the rules, I say that clinging greatly affects your ability to move on the surface you are clinging to. Otherwise if you tried to use it to resist Knockback, you'd go zinging away across the surface like one of those dry ice frictionless pucks, when hit.

 

So yeah, at this point, it looks like we are reading the same thing and coming to two different conclusions. The sentence you highlighted about movement, does not to my mind, rule out the second paragraph about "stickiness". You may, of course disagree - in fact, I suspect you do :D Potato/potato.

 

The fact that if you stick to something then LOGIALLY that means you can't move is' date=' given that we are talking Hero, irrelevant to my way of thinking. Clinging is like an adder to running that enables an element of vertical movement, but it has been around since before we had adders, so to make it a proper power what has happened is it has easter eggs added, like KBR. Talking logic: -1d6 KBR?What, if you have (say) 10 SR or 60 STR clinging? Eh?[/quote']

 

Agreed - logic doesn't really enter into it. I'm using a purely mechanistic approach. Clinging is clearly not just a movement adder - you pay points to add STR, after all. The confusion may arise because it does two things. One, as you have divined, it can act as a movement adder. Two, it acts as a form of highly limited STR (which is why you add it to your own STR - were it purely a movement adder, STR would be irrelevant).

 

You've decided that clinging-derived STR can't be used to stick to things. I've decided it can. After reading the thread, I really can't see a) any reason to change my mind and B) any reason to doubt that my interpretation (made, admittedly, many years ago) differs from the current rules as written. In fact, the rules are pretty explicit that the interpretation I used in the past is the "official" one - for what that's worth.

 

Clinging is an example of where Hero strays from the true path: rather than being a concept power that' date=' combined with other powers, can create what you want, it tries to round itself out. I may be sounding a little evangelical here, but this is important.[/quote']

 

It's a trifle inelegant, yes. A better way to do it might be to make it explicit: no base STR, just a base cost as an adder to movement and a comment that you can of course use your STR to brace or hold onto things, then the current cost to add further STR to your clinging to represent "stickiness". But in terms of utility/function, this distinction bothers me about as much as having armour be a separate power as opposed to being a limited form of defence.

 

 

cheers, Mark

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

While I agree that Clinging UAA preventing the target from moving along the surface is unclear, I have to insist that it preventing the target from moving off the surface is clear. One possible use of Clinging is to "stick" to a surface in such a way that to be "pried" off a STR vs STR roll is needed. Given that the user of the power controls it when it's UAA, then the user of the power can decide to use it for that purpose. The target can't decide not to use it that way, since he has no control over the power.

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Re: Clinging, UAA

 

Sean,

 

I must congratulate you on going beyond your previous best in not making sense.

:cool:

 

The power Clinging was originally based on the comic character Spider-Man.

 

Spider-Man's ability is itself inspired by spiders and to a lesser extent geckos.

 

It is well documented that geckos have complete control of their ability to stick-to and later un-stick to whatever surface they on to allow them to walk along it. I would hazard a guess that the same applies to spiders as well.

 

Spider-Man has used his very similar ability* on more than one occasion to resist being pulled away from a particular surface to the point of the surface itself breaking. *That is, to stay stuck to a surface.

 

The definition of UAA states the owner of the power has complete control of its function and use.

 

Ergo, Clinging with UAA will make the target stick to whatever is available and the power's owner wants to be affected.

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